[quote]Pushers wrote:
Literally in many cases knocking down doors with guns in hand. Thieves - much!
[/quote]
Does it happen? Sure. “literally in many cases”? No.
The vast, vast majority of taxation issues are resolved through mailings and phone calls.
Then there are audits… Still no guns or kicked down doors.
Then, if there is fraud typically, comes court. [/quote]
Maybe so… but taxation is still theft. At the end of the day you the individual cannot opt out, you cannot say “no”, so in essence it stealing - just by “the authorities” rather than some individual lowlife. No matter if it is “the government” who does it or some thug on the street the act itself is the same - they are taking your money agreement or no.
[/quote]
Sure you can, just move to Somalia. Enjoy.[/quote]
Sorry… sure I can what? And what has Somalia got to do with anything?
[/quote]
No taxes bro!!
Free will!!
Nobody is “robbing you”.
[/quote]
Lol, exactly. You want complete freedom from theft (taxation), Somalia has it. What is stopping you from moving there?[/quote]
Oh… you know… friends, family, loving the country I live in, etc. Why should I have to move? If something is immoral it should be stopped or are you really saying that if (for example) I was anti-slavery in the 1800s I should have just left America because “that’s the way we do things round here”! No… you stay and make a case for what is right! Of course the government is robbing me - and if you can’t see that then that’s pretty sad.
Describe to me exactly what the difference is between “the government” taking money from my wages without my consent to someone taking money out of my wallet without my consent? Yes, yes, the money may go on different things (so in “the gov’s” case it goes on paying the interest on the national debt and in the case of the mugger it might go on his granny) but I’m talking about the act itself. The act of taking the money, not on what it is then used for. Please show me the difference because I can’t see it…
What’s the truth about Somalia? I have no idea. From where would I expect to hear more truth regarding gun rights: mises.org and lewrockwell.com, or mainstream news, the UN, and the federal government?
[/quote]
Of course I’m aware of Somalia, but I’d hardly say it’s a failed attempt at self-rule. Firstly, they didn’t decide on self-rule, it wasn’t a conscious decision by the populous to try it out but rather what happened when the gov failed, then the local warlords tried taking over and then the US intervened just to add yet another dimension of sh1t-storm to the brew. Given all of that, from what I’ve heard (and hell, I’m no expert on the matter and haven’t researched it) compared to their Statist neighbours in the region, Somali is actually doing pretty well. And we can hardly compare they to the settled Western nations, only to those around them for the time being (given it’s a relatively new thing - we have to give them time!).
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Sure you can, just move to Somalia. Enjoy.[/quote]
Sorry… sure I can what? And what has Somalia got to do with anything?
[/quote]
From where would I expect to hear more truth regarding gun rights: mises.org and lewrockwell.com, or mainstream news, the UN, and the federal government?
[/quote]
I would say when it comes to getting truth about gun rights you certainly can’t trust the mainstream news, the UN or the government - but I’m guessing you know that of course. Can’t trust a word (give or take) that comes out of their lying mouths (particularly the UN and the US govt!).
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Literally in many cases knocking down doors with guns in hand. Thieves - much!
[/quote]
Does it happen? Sure. “literally in many cases”? No.
The vast, vast majority of taxation issues are resolved through mailings and phone calls.
Then there are audits… Still no guns or kicked down doors.
Then, if there is fraud typically, comes court. [/quote]
Maybe so… but taxation is still theft. At the end of the day you the individual cannot opt out, you cannot say “no”, so in essence it stealing - just by “the authorities” rather than some individual lowlife. No matter if it is “the government” who does it or some thug on the street the act itself is the same - they are taking your money agreement or no.
[/quote]
Sure you can, just move to Somalia. Enjoy.[/quote]
Sorry… sure I can what? And what has Somalia got to do with anything?
[/quote]
Interesting conversation. On one hand we talk about there being a burden on the wealthy, that all the burden is on the wealthy… Well generally if you own damn near everything and have people working for you, the burden is supposed to be on you. Who the fuck else would it be on?
It’s your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently or have government come in with it’s authority to protect the working class.
If business doesn’t like government in their business, they should take better care of their employees and offer them above the minimum, and the minimum should cover the basic cost of living in the area, rent, utilities, medicine, food. It’s a basic standard we should be proud to provide our own as Americans. By the way, the damned Kiwi’s enjoy more freedoms than we do.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Literally in many cases knocking down doors with guns in hand. Thieves - much!
[/quote]
Does it happen? Sure. “literally in many cases”? No.
The vast, vast majority of taxation issues are resolved through mailings and phone calls.
Then there are audits… Still no guns or kicked down doors.
Then, if there is fraud typically, comes court. [/quote]
Maybe so… but taxation is still theft. At the end of the day you the individual cannot opt out, you cannot say “no”, so in essence it stealing - just by “the authorities” rather than some individual lowlife. No matter if it is “the government” who does it or some thug on the street the act itself is the same - they are taking your money agreement or no.
[/quote]
Sure you can, just move to Somalia. Enjoy.[/quote]
Sorry… sure I can what? And what has Somalia got to do with anything?
[/quote]
No taxes bro!!
Free will!!
Nobody is “robbing you”.
[/quote]
I volunteer to help him pack
[/quote]
That’s awfully nice of you. Next time I move house I’ll be sure to give you a yell.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Interesting conversation. On one hand we talk about there being a burden on the wealthy, that all the burden is on the wealthy… Well generally if you own damn near everything and have people working for you, the burden is supposed to be on you. Who the fuck else would it be on?
It’s your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently or have government come in with it’s authority to protect the working class.
If business doesn’t like government in their business, they should take better care of their employees and offer them above the minimum, and the minimum should cover the basic cost of living in the area, rent, utilities, medicine, food. It’s a basic standard we should be proud to provide our own as Americans. By the way, the damned Kiwi’s enjoy more freedoms than we do. [/quote]
Why is it your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently? It’s your responsibility to pay them what you and they have agreed. Nothing more. You don’t have a right to “live decently”. Hell, you don’t even have a right to a job.
If the minimum is more than the employer can afford for the role they are offering then they are losing money each month on that employee. You employ enough like that and soon enough the business will be broke and they will be NO jobs.
Don’t forget, a lot of what the employer can afford to pay is limited by all the regulation, legal, tax costs they have to pay to “the government”. So you want them to have more money to offer employees? Get rid of all the rubbish they have to pay lots in complying with!
Also, people talk like jobs at low level wages are the end point for a lot of employees - that they won’t survive on that level of pay. But in real life most low wage jobs are simply entry level. They get you experience, knowledge, allow you build a network (at least a little) and go from there. In other words, if you are in any way competent and good at your job you’ll be promoted or hunt hunted away in to a better job with better pay. Working careers for the vast majority of people aren’t stagnant things that they do forever. They grow. And with them the wage.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Interesting conversation. On one hand we talk about there being a burden on the wealthy, that all the burden is on the wealthy… Well generally if you own damn near everything and have people working for you, the burden is supposed to be on you. Who the fuck else would it be on?
It’s your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently or have government come in with it’s authority to protect the working class.
If business doesn’t like government in their business, they should take better care of their employees and offer them above the minimum, and the minimum should cover the basic cost of living in the area, rent, utilities, medicine, food. It’s a basic standard we should be proud to provide our own as Americans. By the way, the damned Kiwi’s enjoy more freedoms than we do. [/quote]
Why is it your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently? It’s your responsibility to pay them what you and they have agreed. Nothing more. You don’t have a right to “live decently”. Hell, you don’t even have a right to a job.
If the minimum is more than the employer can afford for the role they are offering then they are losing money each month on that employee. You employ enough like that and soon enough the business will be broke and they will be NO jobs.
Don’t forget, a lot of what the employer can afford to pay is limited by all the regulation, legal, tax costs they have to pay to “the government”. So you want them to have more money to offer employees? Get rid of all the rubbish they have to pay lots in complying with!
Also, people talk like jobs at low level wages are the end point for a lot of employees - that they won’t survive on that level of pay. But in real life most low wage jobs are simply entry level. They get you experience, knowledge, allow you build a network (at least a little) and go from there. In other words, if you are in any way competent and good at your job you’ll be promoted or hunt hunted away in to a better job with better pay. Working careers for the vast majority of people aren’t stagnant things that they do forever. They grow. And with them the wage.
[/quote]
It’s the way the world and progress work. Look at our own history, when there were no regulations historically what happened? Can you give me an example? I’ll give you one that someone else here brought up, micro economies set up for coal miners in the Appalachians, you didn’t get paid money, you got a chit which was worth money, which you took to the company store to buy goods to use land that was owned by the company, it’s moreso a form of feudalism than anything else. The pay was such that the miners couldn’t improve their lives, they worked to sustain themselves and had nothing to show for it at the end of their lives which were generally brutal and short… The examples of child labor during the industrial revolution, and the guilded age was great too? Minimum wages were put in place because AMERICAN’s have a history of being exploited by big business. We can go into life expectancy of folks like coal miners and child factory laborers back in the day if you like… It’s part of Governments role to look out for the weakest in our democracy, which are the laboring poor.
Like I said, if business doesn’t look out for the poor, it’s government’s job to make business pay up. That’s the way it works… If we got rid of regulations and protections for the poor the same ugly shit that happened in the past would happen again, government is inefficient at everything it does and has always been halfway in the pocket of the wealthy, which is why things are the way they are today. What, with factories moving overseas to places like India and China, those countries look after their citizens less, maybe that’s what the wealthy want our country to resemble, China and India… The American dream is alive…
Really, the dichotomy is that the wealthy want no regulation so they can make more money, they don’t care who they exploit, some little brown or yellow dude in China or India, or some poor American right here at home… When it comes right down to it most don’t give a shit about the poor.
The poor just want social mobility. Visceral opportunity… Which is as American as it gets. This is the dichotomy of the view of freedom…
One wants simple, real socio economic opportunity, the other want’s opportunity to make money regardless of who they fuck over. Both very American but they don’t fit together.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Oh… you know… friends, family, loving the country I live in, etc. Why should I have to move?
[/quote]
You don’t have to move. I suggested there is a plac ein this world free of tax you can move to. Your whole family could move there too! What’s stopping you?
There is nothing immoral about taxes. It is nothing like slavery.
You do consent to though. You don’t have to have taxes withdrawn from your paycheck. You set that up with your HR department. You do have to pay your tax bill like everyone else.
The difference is, you have consented to the government using a portion of your income to pay for collective things such as roads, schools, etc…
If you want to argue the government is taking too much, sure, I’ve got no problem with that, but theft. Come on man that is ridiculous.
If you really do think it’s stealing, amend the Constitution or move to Somalia.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Interesting conversation. On one hand we talk about there being a burden on the wealthy, that all the burden is on the wealthy… Well generally if you own damn near everything and have people working for you, the burden is supposed to be on you. Who the fuck else would it be on?
[/quote]
Why is that fair? Why shouldn’t everyone share the brudon for collective goods even if they make less money?
I thought everything was fair , everyone gets a trophy in America?
Their responsibility is the business. It is not the 1% CEO or business owners job to make sure you “live a decent life”. What if the 1% pays you $100K, but you buy a $2MM house liek a moron forcing you to eat Ramon Noodles and go with heat. Does the owner need to pay you more so you can live decently?
[quote]
If business doesn’t like government in their business, they should take better care of their employees and offer them above the minimum, and the minimum should cover the basic cost of living in the area, rent, utilities, medicine, food. It’s a basic standard we should be proud to provide our own as Americans. By the way, the damned Kiwi’s enjoy more freedoms than we do. [/quote]
If every business paid their employees more than they are worth the cost of goods sold would go up, which would result in higher prices for said good, rendering the higher wage worthless.
Please explain of the “Kiwi” economy compares to ours?
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Interesting conversation. On one hand we talk about there being a burden on the wealthy, that all the burden is on the wealthy… Well generally if you own damn near everything and have people working for you, the burden is supposed to be on you. Who the fuck else would it be on?
It’s your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently or have government come in with it’s authority to protect the working class.
If business doesn’t like government in their business, they should take better care of their employees and offer them above the minimum, and the minimum should cover the basic cost of living in the area, rent, utilities, medicine, food. It’s a basic standard we should be proud to provide our own as Americans. By the way, the damned Kiwi’s enjoy more freedoms than we do. [/quote]
Why is it your responsibility to make sure the people you employ live decently? It’s your responsibility to pay them what you and they have agreed. Nothing more. You don’t have a right to “live decently”. Hell, you don’t even have a right to a job.
If the minimum is more than the employer can afford for the role they are offering then they are losing money each month on that employee. You employ enough like that and soon enough the business will be broke and they will be NO jobs.
Don’t forget, a lot of what the employer can afford to pay is limited by all the regulation, legal, tax costs they have to pay to “the government”. So you want them to have more money to offer employees? Get rid of all the rubbish they have to pay lots in complying with!
Also, people talk like jobs at low level wages are the end point for a lot of employees - that they won’t survive on that level of pay. But in real life most low wage jobs are simply entry level. They get you experience, knowledge, allow you build a network (at least a little) and go from there. In other words, if you are in any way competent and good at your job you’ll be promoted or hunt hunted away in to a better job with better pay. Working careers for the vast majority of people aren’t stagnant things that they do forever. They grow. And with them the wage.
[/quote]
It’s the way the world and progress work. Look at our own history, when there were no regulations historically what happened? Can you give me an example? I’ll give you one that someone else here brought up, micro economies set up for coal miners in the Appalachians, you didn’t get paid money, you got a chit which was worth money, which you took to the company store to buy goods to use land that was owned by the company, it’s moreso a form of feudalism than anything else. The pay was such that the miners couldn’t improve their lives, they worked to sustain themselves and had nothing to show for it at the end of their lives which were generally brutal and short… The examples of child labor during the industrial revolution, and the guilded age was great too? Minimum wages were put in place because AMERICAN’s have a history of being exploited by big business. We can go into life expectancy of folks like coal miners and child factory laborers back in the day if you like… It’s part of Governments role to look out for the weakest in our democracy, which are the laboring poor.
Like I said, if business doesn’t look out for the poor, it’s government’s job to make business pay up. That’s the way it works… If we got rid of regulations and protections for the poor the same ugly shit that happened in the past would happen again, government is inefficient at everything it does and has always been halfway in the pocket of the wealthy, which is why things are the way they are today. What, with factories moving overseas to places like India and China, those countries look after their citizens less, maybe that’s what the wealthy want our country to resemble, China and India… The American dream is alive… [/quote]
I’m afraid I simply disagree with your premise - I don’t think it’s businesses jobs to look out for the poor. It’s their responsibility to pay their workers what the agreed when they both signed the contract. That’s it. I think it’s the individuals role to look out for themselves and if they really can’t manage on their own then it’s down to family, friends, local community and if all else fails, charity, to help them.
The problem with “the government” helping is that it does so by stealing from others to pay for the welfare programmes. Yes, being being hard-up is terrible but you will never ever solve societies ills by using an unethical and immoral solution to try and do so. That’s why welfare hasn’t worked in the US, the UK, etc, etc. It has simply kept the poor in perpetual dependence and still poor. Just look at the statistics. The “Welfare State” has not solved the problem.
Interesting you mention times before increased “governmental” regulations because not only did those times produce the strongest economy the world has ever seen and made America the richest country in the world in the shortest time span, it was also solving the problem of poverty at a rate of around 1% per annum (again, go look at the stats). Since the State got involved that falling rate of poverty has frozen and only wavered slightly up and down. Also, since you’ve had more intrusion by the State, America has gone from the richest country the world has even know to the most indebted nation in the world! Hardly a great track record is it?
If you want to solve the “problem” of poverty, you just have to look at countries like India and China now. More people have been lifted out of poverty in those countries since they started de-regulating and freeing up their markets than ever before. We are talking in the millions. Far, far better than any “government program” many times over. I believe I read more people have been lifted out of poverty than at any other point in human history. That’s the power of the market. And those countries are hardly anywhere near “free”.
People used to want to emigrate to America (and did so in their millions) because they wanted the American Dream. The freedom that they could “make it there”. That they were free to follow want they wanted to do and just had to apply themselves. Now they do it for all the “free stuff” they’ll get on welfare. Yes, I’m generalising but that’s pretty much the situation. Sad…
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Oh… you know… friends, family, loving the country I live in, etc. Why should I have to move?
[/quote]
You don’t have to move. I suggested there is a plac ein this world free of tax you can move to. Your whole family could move there too! What’s stopping you?
There is nothing immoral about taxes. It is nothing like slavery.
You do consent to though. You don’t have to have taxes withdrawn from your paycheck. You set that up with your HR department. You do have to pay your tax bill like everyone else.
The difference is, you have consented to the government using a portion of your income to pay for collective things such as roads, schools, etc…
If you want to argue the government is taking too much, sure, I’ve got no problem with that, but theft. Come on man that is ridiculous.
If you really do think it’s stealing, amend the Constitution or move to Somalia. [/quote]
A) I don’t wish to move to Somalia and B) I shouldn’t have to just because I disagree with taxation. I think it’s good to discuss what is wrong with society, not just up and leave because you dislike some part of it.
Where do you get the notion that I consented to “the government” taking part of my pay? I certainly do not remember doing so. I never signed any contract with them. I didn’t agree verbally or otherwise - so how can you claim that I did? I most certainly did not. That’s why it is theft. And in Germany, where I currently live (and it’s the same in the UK) the income tax is deducted automatically from your wage - there is no way out of that. None. Again, so how is that any different from theft? Please do enlighten me…
Of course taxation is like slavery, it’s simply economic slavery, rather than physical slavery. I do not own 100% of my labour, I only own 60% of it. That’s part slave. A full slave owns 0%. It’s only a matter of degree.
Sure, “the government” may pay for roads, schools, etc as you mention with tax (which actually they don’t, my tax goes to pay the interest on the nation debt; the roads, schools, etc are actually paid with borrowed money from the international markets or the FED - why do you think the US is in so much debt?) but again, I did not, in anyway consent to that. I don’t want them to pay for those things. I want businesses to run those things.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Lol at there being no social/economic mobility in this country…[/quote]
What he fails to mention is poor has nothing to do with being ABLE to move up the ladder. Being lazy, apathetic, making poor life decisions, and just being intellectually lacking does.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
A) I don’t wish to move to Somalia
[/quote]
I do’t blame you. It’s a pretty crappy place to live.
I didn’t say you have to. I said, if you want to get away from taxation you can move there.I also think it’s good to discuss what’s wrong with society. Taxation, in general, isn’t one of them. Levels/amounts of taxation sure, taxation in general, no.
Are you a citizen of the United States? Does the Consitution apply to you? Do you use public goods/services? Did you drive on a public road on your way to work today? You and I both use consent to taxation by being citizens of this country.
You implicitly consent to it through naturalization (birth for most of us). Essentially your parents consented for you and by not leaving at adulthood (18) you have also consented.
Have you registered to vote? Have you signed your selective service agreement? Do you pay into social security with the expectation you will receive it upon reaching certain requirements.
You’ve signed all kinds of contracts with the U.S. government.
Well, because like everyone else, with the exception of illegals you have.
Are you talking about German taxation or U.S. taxation? I have been talking about U.S. taxation this whole time.
U.S. is different. I can’t comment on the UK or Germany.
Taxation and slavery are completely different. I’m not going to argue about it with you either.
You pay 40% in taxes? Might be time to leave Germany…
Every single tax dollar goes to pay the interest on the national debt?? You act as if debt is this evil thing, have you ever used a debt instrument? I bet you have.
I would love for businesses to run certain things. Unfortunately there are about 1,000 problems associated with the idea. Like who pays for what? How much does each company have to pay? What if a company goes under, who picks up the slack? How do you make companies pay their fair share. If Microsoft doesn’t want to pay for U.S. roads, but uses them anyway, what do you do?
Do you honestly want Apple running the education system?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Lol at there being no social/economic mobility in this country…[/quote]
What he fails to mention is poor has nothing to do with being ABLE to move up the ladder. Being lazy, apathetic, making poor life decisions, and just being intellectually lacking does.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I want a living wage, but I don’t want to do anything to earn it. I just wanted it given to me. That’s fair, you know, because I was born in America.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Lol at there being no social/economic mobility in this country…[/quote]
What he fails to mention is poor has nothing to do with being ABLE to move up the ladder. Being lazy, apathetic, making poor life decisions, and just being intellectually lacking does.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I want a living wage, but I don’t want to do anything to earn it. I just wanted it given to me. That’s fair, you know, because I was born in America.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Lol at there being no social/economic mobility in this country…[/quote]
What he fails to mention is poor has nothing to do with being ABLE to move up the ladder. Being lazy, apathetic, making poor life decisions, and just being intellectually lacking does.[/quote]
Exactly.
“I want a living wage, but I don’t want to do anything to earn it. I just wanted it given to me. That’s fair, you know, because I was born in America.”
[quote]Pushers wrote:
A) I don’t wish to move to Somalia
[/quote]
I do’t blame you. It’s a pretty crappy place to live.
I didn’t say you have to. I said, if you want to get away from taxation you can move there.I also think it’s good to discuss what’s wrong with society. Taxation, in general, isn’t one of them. Levels/amounts of taxation sure, taxation in general, no.
Are you a citizen of the United States? Does the Consitution apply to you? Do you use public goods/services? Did you drive on a public road on your way to work today? You and I both use consent to taxation by being citizens of this country.
You implicitly consent to it through naturalization (birth for most of us). Essentially your parents consented for you and by not leaving at adulthood (18) you have also consented.
Have you registered to vote? Have you signed your selective service agreement? Do you pay into social security with the expectation you will receive it upon reaching certain requirements.
You’ve signed all kinds of contracts with the U.S. government.
Well, because like everyone else, with the exception of illegals you have.
Are you talking about German taxation or U.S. taxation? I have been talking about U.S. taxation this whole time.
U.S. is different. I can’t comment on the UK or Germany.
Taxation and slavery are completely different. I’m not going to argue about it with you either.
You pay 40% in taxes? Might be time to leave Germany…
Every single tax dollar goes to pay the interest on the national debt?? You act as if debt is this evil thing, have you ever used a debt instrument? I bet you have.
I would love for businesses to run certain things. Unfortunately there are about 1,000 problems associated with the idea. Like who pays for what? How much does each company have to pay? What if a company goes under, who picks up the slack? How do you make companies pay their fair share. If Microsoft doesn’t want to pay for U.S. roads, but uses them anyway, what do you do?
Do you honestly want Apple running the education system? [/quote]
No, I’m not a US citizen, I’m a UK citizen living in Germany (the better half is German). But to be frank, it doesn’t really matter which country we’re talking about, the principles are the same wherever you are. All governments steal from their citizens. I don’t agree with you on “implied consent” just because I live somewhere. I may HAVE to do it, but I certainly don’t have to consent to it! It’s like the social contract some people refer too - what a load of tosh that idea is. No contract is valid unless it is signed by both parties, ask any lawyer. I didn’t sign anything and I do not consent.
Yes, I use the public services of where I live because there is currently no other choice. I also the electricity (in heating and lighting) of a shop when I walk in one but I don’t have to buy something unless I choose to. Or do you think I should be compelled to pay them just for using their heating and light temporarily? One can ONLY enter a shop IF you purchase something?
EVEN, even… if I originally did consent to paying tax, if I then choose to withdraw that consent, I should have the ability to stop paying taxes. Since I do not, it is the same as theft. Yes, yes, the money is used on different things, I agree with you there, but… I’m talking of the act in and of itself.
If you don’t agree with me on the slavery bit, fine, we’ll just agree to disagree - no problem whatsoever.
Regarding businesses running services, sure, there may at times be a few problems (nothing in life is perfect) but you have heard of the recent US ovt. shutdown I assume? It’s not like they are doing a good job now is it? Isn’t it time to try a different tack?
No, I would not want Apple running education particularly, I would like companies that specialise in education running schools. With the Microsoft thing, I guess it would depend on how the company that ran the roads makes you pay… If it was one that charged a toll, then the MS vehicle wouldn’t be able to use it without paying, they would be turned back. If it was the oil companies that owned the roads, or the car companies (or a combo for example because both those industries have a vested interest in keeping us driving!), then I would assume they would charge a little extra on the fuel or cost of the car/truck, etc. So MS wouldn’t be able to get out of paying in those little examples (I’m just imaging solutions here). If a compnay went bust, who would pick up the slack?.. Well, competitors one would think right? That’s the free market, always someone else looking to move in. If the govt. shuts down, like recently, there is literally NO ONE to pick up the slack!
Oh and I’m not saying debt is a bad thing per se. However, when it gets to the level it has in most Western economies it is very bad. After all this is the national debt. The govt. doesn’t produce anything. It can only pay it back by leeching off the productive in society, which makes us all poorer.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
No, I’m not a US citizen, I’m a UK citizen living in Germany (the better half is German). But to be frank, it doesn’t really matter which country we’re talking about, the principles are the same wherever you are. All governments steal from their citizens. I don’t agree with you on “implied consent” just because I live somewhere. I may HAVE to do it, but I certainly don’t have to consent to it! It’s like the social contract some people refer too - what a load of tosh that idea is. No contract is valid unless it is signed by both parties, ask any lawyer. I didn’t sign anything and I do not consent.
[/quote]
Okay. If this is true, why hasn’t the Supreme Court struck the 16th amendment down? Did your and my descendants not vote for the representatives that passed the 16th? Isn’t that consent?
I don’t even know what you’re talking about here. You would never “buy” a road. You will always use it without “buying” anything so to speak. The business relies on a % of shoppers buying products. It’s completely different.
You do realize if businesses controlled the roads in America every single road would have a toll, which basically amounts to a tax…
Unless you are withdrawing your use of all public goods, which is impossible without leaving the country, you can’t withdraw that consent. You will alwasyuse public goods.
Fine with me.
The shutdown was WAY overblown. Schools didn’t shut down, roads didn’t shut down. Non-essential personnel & work was shut down (like parks to make a point). For 99.99% of us life went on with zero interruption.
If businesses ran everything the same would not be the case. All you have to do is look at bank loan processing during the recession to see how life would come to a grinding hault if businesses ran everything.
Even if businesses ran everything, you would still need a way (government) to facilitate it.
How would they be turned back, with force?
Why not charge a whole lot more? The do now have a monopoly on travel and there is NOTHING to stop them from price gouging everyone.
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So MS wouldn’t be able to get out of paying in those little examples (I’m just imaging solutions here). If a compnay went bust, who would pick up the slack?.. Well, competitors one would think right? [/quote]
And how long would it take for their competitors to pick up the slack? What about in Detroit where their competitors are overseas? Would Toyota start paving the roads in Michigan?
I love the free market, but it’s not the end all be all of everything. The government shutdown affected barely anyone. Do you want Microsoft running the U.S. military; I hope it works better than Internet Explorer.
I can see a guy like Bernie Maddoff running the Marine Corps. That’ll work out great, I’m sure.
Most people have debt that is multiple times their annual salary. U.S. debt isn’t even a years GDP.
We need to tighten government spending, absolutely. Debt has always been used for public services. The Revolution was funded in part by debt for crying out loud.
