The government not a jobs program haha how is it not?
Just because it is doesn’t mean that it’s supposed to be.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Without the US Navy, the world’s oceans would soon resemble the ocean off the coast of Somalia, with piracy and plunder running rampant.[/quote]
I would agree with this 100%. We could maintain the worlds most sophisticated, bad ass navy, patroling all over the world in international waters, without being interventionists. It drives the Islamic world crazy when we have bases and troops in their holy lands, so why do it? Can’t we maintain a strong military presence world wide, without actually having bases/boots on the ground?
“Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none.” ~ Thomas Jefferson[/quote]
We should do it, just because it drives the Islamic world crazy. Well, that is a short drive…
Like it or NOT we ARE engaged in a culture war with Islam. To retreat from any part of the world is to invite conflict in another area…
[quote]scsniper175th wrote:
Dude there are operational forces in the CIA and the army that do whatever whenever they want. Im not talking about 1st SFOD aka delta now CAG or the CIA’s SAD (special activities division) dam i think i just violated opsec.[/quote]
The NSA is 7 times larger than the CIA. I doubt anyone will notice. Just don’t get the attention of the NSA…uh,oh… XD
[quote]Valor wrote:
Like it or NOT we ARE engaged in a culture war with Islam. To retreat from any part of the world is to invite conflict in another area…[/quote]
That’s neo-conservative, imperialistic, bullshit.
99.9% of the people in the Islamic world don’t give a rat’s ass about us and just want to be left alone: like most people everywhere.
[quote]Valor wrote:
We currently have the most educated military in the history of Earth…
[/quote]
Compared to most of the militaries in the history of the Earth doesn’t say much when the majority of those soldiers that served before the Industrial Revolution could neither read nor write.
[quote]Valor wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Without the US Navy, the world’s oceans would soon resemble the ocean off the coast of Somalia, with piracy and plunder running rampant.[/quote]
I would agree with this 100%. We could maintain the worlds most sophisticated, bad ass navy, patroling all over the world in international waters, without being interventionists. It drives the Islamic world crazy when we have bases and troops in their holy lands, so why do it? Can’t we maintain a strong military presence world wide, without actually having bases/boots on the ground?
“Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none.” ~ Thomas Jefferson[/quote]
We should do it, just because it drives the Islamic world crazy. Well, that is a short drive…[/quote]
And how does driving the Islamic world crazy benefit the US? Not trying to be contentious here, but I just don’t see where we could benefit.
This is just simply not true, on any level. The United States enjoyed many years of real measurable success without any undue intervention. Also, just because The US doesn’t have troops in the majority of the countries in the world, doesn’t mean we’re not engaged.
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
A couple of weeks back I was talking to a Japanese woman who was going on and on about how the US shouldn’t be policing the world and how the US should pull out of Japan. She went on and on about how bad it was to have a base in Okinawa.
After I let her finish, I asked, “If the US pulled out of Okinawa tomorrow, would China invade Taiwan the next day?”
She stopped, thought for a second, and then said, something like, “yeah, They US has to stay in Japan, don’t they.”
[/quote]
My response would be it’s not our job to protect Taiwan.
[/quote]
That is the heart of the matter.
America plays world police and goes bankrupt.[/quote]
Spartiates and BB,
How far would you allow China to expand militarily?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
A couple of weeks back I was talking to a Japanese woman who was going on and on about how the US shouldn’t be policing the world and how the US should pull out of Japan. She went on and on about how bad it was to have a base in Okinawa.
After I let her finish, I asked, “If the US pulled out of Okinawa tomorrow, would China invade Taiwan the next day?”
She stopped, thought for a second, and then said, something like, “yeah, They US has to stay in Japan, don’t they.”
[/quote]
My response would be it’s not our job to protect Taiwan.
[/quote]
That is the heart of the matter.
America plays world police and goes bankrupt.[/quote]
Spartiates and BB,
How far would you allow China to expand militarily?
[/quote]
Not directed at me but let me answer, as long as it is not on American shores it is none of our business. Let them expand and expand and expand till they blow themselves up financially. Why should Young Americans die trying to fight a super power?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]Valor wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I’d like to see them pay the current guys a bit more too. Cut the morons and get an intelligent fighting force and pay them well enough that maybe people who have other options join the military instead of only those with few other choices.[/quote]
We currently have the most educated military in the history of Earth…
Just say’in.[/quote]
Wow, I bet those dead Iraqi babies are impressed.[/quote]
Just as impressed as the Afgan babies who are dunked in boiling water by their own parents… or the millions of muslim females who are sexually mutilated by dad.
Besides, killing babies is overrated.
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
A couple of weeks back I was talking to a Japanese woman who was going on and on about how the US shouldn’t be policing the world and how the US should pull out of Japan. She went on and on about how bad it was to have a base in Okinawa.
After I let her finish, I asked, “If the US pulled out of Okinawa tomorrow, would China invade Taiwan the next day?”
She stopped, thought for a second, and then said, something like, “yeah, They US has to stay in Japan, don’t they.”
[/quote]
My response would be it’s not our job to protect Taiwan.
[/quote]
That is the heart of the matter.
America plays world police and goes bankrupt.[/quote]
Spartiates and BB,
How far would you allow China to expand militarily?
[/quote]
Not directed at me but let me answer, as long as it is not on American shores it is none of our business. Let them expand and expand and expand till they blow themselves up financially. Why should Young Americans die trying to fight a super power?[/quote]
That’s pretty much where I am. I’d expand it to aiding real/legitimate allies if they got invaded… like if the UK got physically invaded by China.
I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that Taiwan is not a real or legitimate ally? What about Japan?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that Taiwan is not a real or legitimate ally? What about Japan? [/quote]
No, and no. Tho I do support a slow withdraw from japan and repaying the debt to them with military weapons, such as ships and an airforce. Let them defend themselves. I mean unless you are willing to strap a bullet proof jacket and an m4 carbon to yourself and go fight China because they invade Taiwan, how can you ask others too?
And if you are willing to do that, why?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Without the US Navy, the world’s oceans would soon resemble the ocean off the coast of Somalia, with piracy and plunder running rampant.
Civilised parts of the world should be on their own – Germany, Japan, and like that. Bring those troops home.
The developed world should pay a 1% wealth tax to fund our military, since they benefit from the order provided by the United States, for free.[/quote]
I agree. The Navy has a legitimate mission protecting sea lanes.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that Taiwan is not a real or legitimate ally? What about Japan? [/quote]
Yes. We toss “ally” around far too much. We can be on friendly terms with a country without being allies. Being an ally implies some sort of mutually beneficial relationship: if we were invaded would Taiwan liberate us?
We essentially occupy Japan, however, we do it without the traditional benefits an occupying power gets.
Again I say get out. No one is invading Japan. If/when there was a real, immediate threat of Japan being invaded, we’d need to reassess the situation.
South Korea, for example, we should be out of. I have no second guesses about that one. Let the peninsula sort itself out. It’s in fact, our (and other larger power’s) involvement in the conflict that makes it dangerous. If the US, Russia, China, exe. let the Koreans alone, they’d figure it out themselves, with far fewer potential lives on the line.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that Taiwan is not a real or legitimate ally? What about Japan? [/quote]
Yes. We toss “ally” around far too much. We can be on friendly terms with a country without being allies. Being an ally implies some sort of mutually beneficial relationship: if we were invaded would Taiwan liberate us?
We essentially occupy Japan, however, we do it without the traditional benefits an occupying power gets.
Again I say get out. No one is invading Japan. If/when there was a real, immediate threat of Japan being invaded, we’d need to reassess the situation.[/quote]
I guess, with their people being kidnapped and missiles being sent over Honshu (their main island), I see them as essentially under attack (or threat of attack) for years. I think that Japan’s constitution (that “we” wrote) should be changed so that they can spend more on defense and so that they can have an offensive capability. That being said, I think the military presence in Japan is justified by the security interests in the region.
[quote]
South Korea, for example, we should be out of. I have no second guesses about that one. Let the peninsula sort itself out. It’s in fact, our (and other larger power’s) involvement in the conflict that makes it dangerous. If the US, Russia, China, exe. let the Koreans alone, they’d figure it out themselves, with far fewer potential lives on the line.[/quote]
If those countries left them alone, perhaps that would be true. But those countries won’t leave them alone. Period. If the US pulled out, who would pull in? I guess I see unilateral retreat as an extremely bad idea. If an arrangement could be made where all the major powers would agree to “leave them alone” then perhaps. … But even then, we’re dealing with a N. Korea with nukes. They shouldn’t be left alone, they should be monitored and prevented from spreading those weapons.
Further, take a look at a “nighttime” satellite view of Japan, China, and Korea. It’s somewhat chilling. North Korea is completely dark whereas all the other countries are “lit up.” You seem to be arguing that the US has no business in promoting the economic successes that are/were Japan and Korea. I simply disagree.
Overall, I think you are arguing for an isolationist view of the world (unless I am misunderstanding you). You think that the costs of promoting world stability outweigh the benefits. I fundamentally disagree. While I agree with those who want the “rest of the west” to pay more for their own security, I also feel that the US has benefited more than any other country by the stability that our military presence has brought (overall).
I’d say empire reduction is a good thing. Our military is oversized and bloated, it is far larger than any foriegn military and could deal with all DOMESTIC issues 450x over with what we have on hand. We could easily have or even quarter the damn thing and still d a damn god job at our defense. We’d just have to get rid of al these overseas bases.