Medical Field/Drugs and Death

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

and PTs don’t get attacked on here? I don’t think that personal, because that’s not me. The same is true that it’s not a personal attack on you.

It’s no secret the medical profession has it’s good and bad just like any profession. Just know many people are not happy with the current affairs of the medical establishment.

In all fairness, I don’t blame the individuals low on the totem pole (that’s not a dig either), it starts way high up and filters down.
[/quote]

Personal Trainers don’t get hauled into court because of a workout they did back in 2007 where the client had heart burn. You are catching some flack from medical professionals now because medical professionals already know that daily practice involves making decisions that could at any moment be dissected under a microscope. That means in majority, these decisions made in patient treatment are usually not just so a drug company can pimp a new drug.

It is a strange tactic to ignore that people enjoy killing themselves but then act as if the medical community should somehow instigate mass mind control along with that tetanus shot just so Uncle Rob will quit drinking 40’s like Kool-Aid in between 5 packs of cigs.

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
do you know how many FAT, 60-80 year olds who are so obese they cannot even toilet themselves without help that are on DOZENS of medications. [/quote]

Honestly, I would bet against there being a high percentage of obese 60 - 80 year olds on 24+ medications.[/quote]

Then you would lose a lot of bets. That whole baby boomer generation is in their 60’s now and 60 doesn’t mean what it did 30 years ago. There are tons of fat 60 year olds around. Let’s avoid acting as if anyone is in the dark about how long most people live.[/quote]

No, I go to WalMart.

It was, more specifically, the DOZENS of medications part that raised my eyebrow.

i.e.:

“Do you know how many old people are on DOZENS of medications??”

“Not a whole lot, I’d bet.”[/quote]
I get your point. I think he meant “a dozen or more”, which is very common.

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Yes there is new research that has still not made it to some areas of the country. HOWEVER my Grandfather was put on CoQ10 by his cardiologist and he has always exercised and watched his diet and he still had a MI at 72 and got a bypass. However he is still on statins, fish oil etc. Cause again read above a DR/Provider will lose serious money for NOT treating someone with CVD appropriately which includes statins, Beta blockers, ASA etc.

You again are making diagnosis from your laptop, reading conspiracy theory news on the internet. You do not work in a hospital, family practice, surgery center, you do not work in the medical field. You do not have a state license or spent over a decade in school learning about the human body. The medical field is always learning and technology is always improving that is why research still continues.

We get it, you are a believer, you have drank the Kool Aid, everything is about diet and exercise. The medical community is in bed with the pharmacy companies to just pump out the most drugs and make the most money possible at the expense of the populace. If only everyone in America ate grass fed beef, milk straight from the cow and free range chicken eggs we would eradicate heart disease and obesity.

But in reality you come off as some rich kid snob who has his head in the clouds and no real clue how the real world works. You are like some religious nut that nobody can stand to be around cause all they talk about is religion. Your message gets lost in your fever of bullshit that you are not effective in any way other than people talking about you.

Now where did you get this information? “I mean WTF, and even worse even when docs do prescribe them vast majority of the time, there’s no mention of the need to supplement with CoQ10, absurd.” HOW do you know that this is not being suggested? How do you know that maybe people are NOT buying it cause they cant afford to buy it. You again make assumptions to try to prove a point.[/quote]

Excellent post, Derek.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Hmmm,
I have had many patients who were extremely obese, on many different medications to control high blood pressure, diabetes, and cholesterol issues. I would have to say the vast majority of them refuse to change their lifestyle at all and seem to completely ignore how much effort it takes them just to move as a result of the fat they are carrying.

It is great to discuss “prevention”. However, in the real world, the majority of the human population would eat cake, screw, and sleep their way through life even if it was killing them.

I have heard many times, “I’m not giving up my fried chicken and cornbread!!”…way more than I’ve heard. “whew, I sure am glad I stopped smoking, started training 3-4 days a week in a gym and quit eating all of my meals at KFC…where’s the PREVENTION WARD???”[/quote]

That’s a great point, X. In my limited experience (three years of med school) I’ve found that most people will not change their diet or lifestyle, even when diagnosed with a serious condition like diabetes mellitus type II. People seem to think that they will be the exception; they will not get cancer if they smoke, or vascular problems if they don’t control their blood glucose.

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Yes there is new research that has still not made it to some areas of the country. HOWEVER my Grandfather was put on CoQ10 by his cardiologist and he has always exercised and watched his diet and he still had a MI at 72 and got a bypass. However he is still on statins, fish oil etc. Cause again read above a DR/Provider will lose serious money for NOT treating someone with CVD appropriately which includes statins, Beta blockers, ASA etc.

You again are making diagnosis from your laptop, reading conspiracy theory news on the internet. You do not work in a hospital, family practice, surgery center, you do not work in the medical field. You do not have a state license or spent over a decade in school learning about the human body. The medical field is always learning and technology is always improving that is why research still continues.

We get it, you are a believer, you have drank the Kool Aid, everything is about diet and exercise. The medical community is in bed with the pharmacy companies to just pump out the most drugs and make the most money possible at the expense of the populace. If only everyone in America ate grass fed beef, milk straight from the cow and free range chicken eggs we would eradicate heart disease and obesity.

But in reality you come off as some rich kid snob who has his head in the clouds and no real clue how the real world works. You are like some religious nut that nobody can stand to be around cause all they talk about is religion. Your message gets lost in your fever of bullshit that you are not effective in any way other than people talking about you.

Now where did you get this information? “I mean WTF, and even worse even when docs do prescribe them vast majority of the time, there’s no mention of the need to supplement with CoQ10, absurd.” HOW do you know that this is not being suggested? How do you know that maybe people are NOT buying it cause they cant afford to buy it. You again make assumptions to try to prove a point.[/quote]

Excellent post, Derek.[/quote]

and perhaps Derek should spend a week in my shoes. Deal with the people who I deal with. The people that want to change, want to be healthy but are being misinformed in just about every direction.

do you know how long it has taken me to bring many of them around to the idea that egg yolks and red meat are not bad for us?

That having 3-4 whole eggs for breakfast when you’re a T2 diabetic will most likely be a better choice than their RD prescribed (I shit you not) bowl of cheerios with skim milk and a banana.

Or the people that stopped using butter, lard or coconut oil and chose to go with margarine, or vegetable oils.

Shit, I had one lady who grew up on a farm, loved liver but gave it up long ago because of all the gasp cholesterol. She’s T2 diabetic, gee could it be because she fears what was good for her all along and has since adopted a horrible diet.

Or those that ARE on statins and have no fucking clue with CoQ10 is, because their doctor never talked to them about it.

I will give it to you that my Mom’s doctor did have her on CoQ10 years ago, thankfully.

Look, I get it. Plenty of people don’t care in this country and drink/eat themselves to death and don’t exercise. But, there are plenty of people who adopted what they thought or were told were healthy eating habits. And don’t think for a moment that the gov’t recommending we eat low fat didn’t have some unintended consequences to how people ate as a nation.

What you don’t seem to get is that treatment protocols can’t be changed because of a tiny new study. Do you realize what the standard “p<0.05” means? That a good study you can trust has a 5% change of the result being a coincidence. And that means 5% of the good studies will show something that is just a coincidence. You seem to pick a lot of these 5%.

2 out of your 3 links were to people selling books on their websites. How impartial do you think they are? They can’t be trying to make money, right?

Diabetes, rhabdomyolysis, all side effects included they still save lives.

[quote]kakno wrote:
What you don’t seem to get is that treatment protocols can’t be changed because of a tiny new study. Do you realize what the standard “p<0.05” means? That a good study you can trust has a 5% change of the result being a coincidence. And that means 5% of the good studies will show something that is just a coincidence. You seem to pick a lot of these 5%.

2 out of your 3 links were to people selling books on their websites. How impartial do you think they are? They can’t be trying to make money, right?

Diabetes, rhabdomyolysis, all side effects included they still save lives. [/quote]

In one of the books is referenced the following studies, now mind you prior to 2008 (I may be off on the year), but negative trials didn’t have to be reported (from what I’ve read).

Absolute risk

4S -3.3% this showed no diff at all in female mortality (among the most positive fro statin trials)
WOSCOPS -.9
CARE -.78
AFCAPS +.09
LIPID -3.1
EXCEL +.3

there’s also the issue in studies of relative vs absolute risk and statin stats are notorious for overselling the stats on risk reduction.

[quote]kakno wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]kakno wrote:
Statins still save lives. Despite the popularity of high fat diets.
[/quote]

ummm what?

what is your reasoning for claiming that high fat diets are in anyway detrimental to an individual’s health?
[/quote]
Reading comprehension.

What that means is: While diet trends have changed and people are no longer afraid of eating fat, human biochemistry has not. Statins still work.[/quote]

I am not sure what you mean by that? Would you care to elaborate?

Imagine how many people would die if doctors stopped prescribing medicine?

I think the medication is too controlled right now. Internet pharma is huge for a reason, people cannot get it from their drs. Increasing the size of the black market because of a prohibition, will put more dangerous drugs in people’s hands not less.
If people want drugs, they get drugs.

At some point people have to be responsible for themselves. I think people should be forced to understand more about their health instead of handing it off to a proxy. There seems almost a religious veneration for doctors in this country, truth is, you rarely walk out with a diagnosis. There is a lot of think, maybe and try when you leave a doctor. Doctors and drugs are tools, they are not your parents and they are not responsible for you.

Your health is not the doctor’s responsibility, it’s yours and if you are too lazy, or don’t have enough sense to take some control of it, then expect problems.

[quote]pat wrote:
Imagine how many people would die if doctors stopped prescribing medicine?

I think the medication is too controlled right now. Internet pharma is huge for a reason, people cannot get it from their drs. Increasing the size of the black market because of a prohibition, will put more dangerous drugs in people’s hands not less.
If people want drugs, they get drugs.

At some point people have to be responsible for themselves. I think people should be forced to understand more about their health instead of handing it off to a proxy. There seems almost a religious veneration for doctors in this country, truth is, you rarely walk out with a diagnosis. There is a lot of think, maybe and try when you leave a doctor. Doctors and drugs are tools, they are not your parents and they are not responsible for you.

Your health is not the doctor’s responsibility, it’s yours and if you are too lazy, or don’t have enough sense to take some control of it, then expect problems. [/quote]

Get out of here with this liberty shit.

If breastfeeding has taught us anything it is that the collective is best as long as certain people’s opinions are being fed to the people. If the wrong opinions are being fed to the people, the government has failed the mighty collective and the evil corporate illumiati are to blame.

my doc was shocked when she asked me if there were any meds I wouldn’t take and I said statins even if I had high cholesterol. Mind you I do have a strong history of CVD in my family, but I eat well, exercise, don’t smoke, and no health issues.

also, who should statins be prescribed for?

what if a 60 yr old lady who exercises a few times a week, no health issues but has TC of 220… should she be placed on a statin?

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
do you know how many FAT, 60-80 year olds who are so obese they cannot even toilet themselves without help that are on DOZENS of medications. [/quote]

Honestly, I would bet against there being a high percentage of obese 60 - 80 year olds on 24+ medications.[/quote]

Then you would lose a lot of bets. That whole baby boomer generation is in their 60’s now and 60 doesn’t mean what it did 30 years ago. There are tons of fat 60 year olds around. Let’s avoid acting as if anyone is in the dark about how long most people live.[/quote]

No, I go to WalMart.

It was, more specifically, the DOZENS of medications part that raised my eyebrow.

i.e.:

“Do you know how many old people are on DOZENS of medications??”

“Not a whole lot, I’d bet.”[/quote]

Then you are making an assumption of your current experience and knowledge correct.

Heavy is an ER nurse in a Trauma center in Cali, I worked ER in Trauma center and family practice and from our experience there a a lot of elderly on that many medications.

So what do you make your assumption on?

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

So where you at? Where are your pictures, log. Because by God the way you talk you better fucking look like Tibs and lift like Wendler. [/quote]

wow dude, you’re really stretching. Where have I talked in here or anywhere lately on how to get big and huge? In case you haven’t noticed, that’s not the direction I take with my posts on here. Hell, I stayed off the BB forum for a long time since I had no interest in it.

My goals are different, though I will say I’m back to putting on weight if that makes you happy and have gained 14 lbs in the past 12 weeks. I don’t post my personal shit too much b/c of too many on this site that make stuff personal such as your last statement.[/quote]

Well you make it personal when you attack my profession and my integrity that I have done for 20 years. Again what you post says a lot about yourself and I am just kind of tired of the slant of your posts. I post in GAL to fuck around between patients, I post in over 35 cause there are some very strong grown ups in there.

Again my point was everything you post reeks of no accountability not only in regards to this thread but also in regards to lifting and life in general.

So I will drop this topic, however next time you post some horse shit like this thread I damn well will attack your position again. Because you have yet to build any credibility. [/quote]

and PTs don’t get attacked on here? I don’t take that personal, because that’s not me. The same is true that it’s not a personal attack on you.

It’s no secret the medical profession has it’s good and bad just like any profession. Just know many people are not happy with the current affairs of the medical establishment.

In all fairness, I don’t blame the individuals low on the totem pole (that’s not a dig either), it starts way high up and filters down.
[/quote]

I dont attack PT’s cause I have no formal training, I would come off as a uneducated fool. I have an extensive knowledge of the human body, however most of that is in disease process or stabilizing trauma. I have lifted weights and played sports my whole life, that does not give me credibility to criticize Wendler/Tate/Tibs etc. I can question and can study, but for me to criticize would make me a major douche bag.

However you do not have this same view point, with your training you feel it gives you enough credibility to attack and criticize the medical profession.

So in your statement blaming the individuals low on the totem pole. You need to clarify this, what starts up high?

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

So where you at? Where are your pictures, log. Because by God the way you talk you better fucking look like Tibs and lift like Wendler. [/quote]

wow dude, you’re really stretching. Where have I talked in here or anywhere lately on how to get big and huge? In case you haven’t noticed, that’s not the direction I take with my posts on here. Hell, I stayed off the BB forum for a long time since I had no interest in it.

My goals are different, though I will say I’m back to putting on weight if that makes you happy and have gained 14 lbs in the past 12 weeks. I don’t post my personal shit too much b/c of too many on this site that make stuff personal such as your last statement.[/quote]

Well you make it personal when you attack my profession and my integrity that I have done for 20 years. Again what you post says a lot about yourself and I am just kind of tired of the slant of your posts. I post in GAL to fuck around between patients, I post in over 35 cause there are some very strong grown ups in there.

Again my point was everything you post reeks of no accountability not only in regards to this thread but also in regards to lifting and life in general.

So I will drop this topic, however next time you post some horse shit like this thread I damn well will attack your position again. Because you have yet to build any credibility. [/quote]

and PTs don’t get attacked on here? I don’t take that personal, because that’s not me. The same is true that it’s not a personal attack on you.

It’s no secret the medical profession has it’s good and bad just like any profession. Just know many people are not happy with the current affairs of the medical establishment.

In all fairness, I don’t blame the individuals low on the totem pole (that’s not a dig either), it starts way high up and filters down.
[/quote]

I dont attack PT’s cause I have no formal training, I would come off as a uneducated fool. I have an extensive knowledge of the human body, however most of that is in disease process or stabilizing trauma. I have lifted weights and played sports my whole life, that does not give me credibility to criticize Wendler/Tate/Tibs etc. I can question and can study, but for me to criticize would make me a major douche bag.

However you do not have this same view point, with your training you feel it gives you enough credibility to attack and criticize the medical profession.

So in your statement blaming the individuals low on the totem pole. You need to clarify this, what starts up high? [/quote]

Perhaps totem pole is not a good analogy. In a sense, the system itself. It’s set up to pass along bad info, from flawed studies, to greed, to drug reps, to the way loopholes still allow drug companies to provide incentives to doctors, to the media perpetuating myths. It’s just the whole damn thing, not sure how else to put it.

Figured this might be an interesting read to give an idea of what I’m talking about.

this one is decent as well

also this one
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doctorsa-story-of-corruption/

this may have been missed in the flury of replies

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Yes there is new research that has still not made it to some areas of the country. HOWEVER my Grandfather was put on CoQ10 by his cardiologist and he has always exercised and watched his diet and he still had a MI at 72 and got a bypass. However he is still on statins, fish oil etc. Cause again read above a DR/Provider will lose serious money for NOT treating someone with CVD appropriately which includes statins, Beta blockers, ASA etc.

You again are making diagnosis from your laptop, reading conspiracy theory news on the internet. You do not work in a hospital, family practice, surgery center, you do not work in the medical field. You do not have a state license or spent over a decade in school learning about the human body. The medical field is always learning and technology is always improving that is why research still continues.

We get it, you are a believer, you have drank the Kool Aid, everything is about diet and exercise. The medical community is in bed with the pharmacy companies to just pump out the most drugs and make the most money possible at the expense of the populace. If only everyone in America ate grass fed beef, milk straight from the cow and free range chicken eggs we would eradicate heart disease and obesity.

But in reality you come off as some rich kid snob who has his head in the clouds and no real clue how the real world works. You are like some religious nut that nobody can stand to be around cause all they talk about is religion. Your message gets lost in your fever of bullshit that you are not effective in any way other than people talking about you.

Now where did you get this information? “I mean WTF, and even worse even when docs do prescribe them vast majority of the time, there’s no mention of the need to supplement with CoQ10, absurd.” HOW do you know that this is not being suggested? How do you know that maybe people are NOT buying it cause they cant afford to buy it. You again make assumptions to try to prove a point.[/quote]

Excellent post, Derek.[/quote]

and perhaps Derek should spend a week in my shoes. Deal with the people who I deal with. The people that want to change, want to be healthy but are being misinformed in just about every direction.

[/quote]

Hahahahahahahahaah how do you know what I have done in my medical career?

I actually worked as a nurse at a cardiac rehab for 2 years, these were people post bypass who I put on treadmills, stationary bikes etc.

From the sound of it, you are over stepping your qualifications and you may be setting yourself up to be accountable if someone had a bad effect of your “coaching”

Best be careful what you preach.

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Yes there is new research that has still not made it to some areas of the country. HOWEVER my Grandfather was put on CoQ10 by his cardiologist and he has always exercised and watched his diet and he still had a MI at 72 and got a bypass. However he is still on statins, fish oil etc. Cause again read above a DR/Provider will lose serious money for NOT treating someone with CVD appropriately which includes statins, Beta blockers, ASA etc.

You again are making diagnosis from your laptop, reading conspiracy theory news on the internet. You do not work in a hospital, family practice, surgery center, you do not work in the medical field. You do not have a state license or spent over a decade in school learning about the human body. The medical field is always learning and technology is always improving that is why research still continues.

We get it, you are a believer, you have drank the Kool Aid, everything is about diet and exercise. The medical community is in bed with the pharmacy companies to just pump out the most drugs and make the most money possible at the expense of the populace. If only everyone in America ate grass fed beef, milk straight from the cow and free range chicken eggs we would eradicate heart disease and obesity.

But in reality you come off as some rich kid snob who has his head in the clouds and no real clue how the real world works. You are like some religious nut that nobody can stand to be around cause all they talk about is religion. Your message gets lost in your fever of bullshit that you are not effective in any way other than people talking about you.

Now where did you get this information? “I mean WTF, and even worse even when docs do prescribe them vast majority of the time, there’s no mention of the need to supplement with CoQ10, absurd.” HOW do you know that this is not being suggested? How do you know that maybe people are NOT buying it cause they cant afford to buy it. You again make assumptions to try to prove a point.[/quote]

Excellent post, Derek.[/quote]

and perhaps Derek should spend a week in my shoes. Deal with the people who I deal with. The people that want to change, want to be healthy but are being misinformed in just about every direction.

[/quote]

Hahahahahahahahaah how do you know what I have done in my medical career?

I actually worked as a nurse at a cardiac rehab for 2 years, these were people post bypass who I put on treadmills, stationary bikes etc.

From the sound of it, you are over stepping your qualifications and you may be setting yourself up to be accountable if someone had a bad effect of your “coaching”

Best be careful what you preach. [/quote]

Pot kettle? I’m talking my specific situation of where I am.

you know not much of my qualifications thanks.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
my doc was shocked when she asked me if there were any meds I wouldn’t take and I said statins even if I had high cholesterol. Mind you I do have a strong history of CVD in my family, but I eat well, exercise, don’t smoke, and no health issues.

also, who should statins be prescribed for?

what if a 60 yr old lady who exercises a few times a week, no health issues but has TC of 220… should she be placed on a statin?[/quote]

Again this shows your ignorance we dont treat by TC this is not 1990.

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
my doc was shocked when she asked me if there were any meds I wouldn’t take and I said statins even if I had high cholesterol. Mind you I do have a strong history of CVD in my family, but I eat well, exercise, don’t smoke, and no health issues.

also, who should statins be prescribed for?

what if a 60 yr old lady who exercises a few times a week, no health issues but has TC of 220… should she be placed on a statin?[/quote]

Again this shows your ignorance we dont treat by TC this is not 1990. [/quote]

really? ok doc… tell that to my seniors who come in with “high” cholesterol and their doc recommends statins… or tell that to my 24 yr old female friend who was told you may want to start thinking about these types of drugs… but what do I know

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
my doc was shocked when she asked me if there were any meds I wouldn’t take and I said statins even if I had high cholesterol. Mind you I do have a strong history of CVD in my family, but I eat well, exercise, don’t smoke, and no health issues.

also, who should statins be prescribed for?

what if a 60 yr old lady who exercises a few times a week, no health issues but has TC of 220… should she be placed on a statin?[/quote]

Again this shows your ignorance we dont treat by TC this is not 1990. [/quote]

oh, and Im sorry, let’s say an LDL of 140, that better for ya