Medical Errors Leading to Death

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Strange quote from the FDA article:

"In its report, To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System, the IOM estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors.

"A medical error, under the report’s definition, could mean a health-care provider chose an inappropriate method of care, such as giving a patient a certain asthma drug without knowing that he or she was allergic to it.

Or it could mean the health provider chose the right course of care but carried it out incorrectly, such as intending to infuse a patient with diluted potassium chloride --a potassium supplement-- but inadvertently giving the patient a concentrated, lethal overdose…

"Despite the recent focus on the IOM statistics, experts assure that the health system in the United States is safe. But its safety record is a far cry from the enviable record of the similarly complex aviation industry, which is being held up as an example for the medical world.

A person would have to fly nonstop for 438 years before expecting to be involved in a deadly airplane crash, based on recent airline accident statistics. That, IOM says, places health-care at least a decade behind aviation in safeguarding consumers’ lives and health."

Um, in 1999 the airlines were killing 44,000-plus Americans per year?

In fact, back in the days of the DC-3 the aviation industry had a far better safety record than this.

10 years behind?

[/quote]

The point I was trying to make was that you are more likely to die from a doctors reckless/negligent decision as opposed to a police officers. Yet we fear police and not medical professionals. Most likely the people posting didn’t read much of the FDA article.

If there are fewer doctors than there are cops, and way more medical negligence cases, why is there not a media frenzy over this stuff?

22

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I guess I’m confused as to why you would mention it. If, you’re saying you would not test as legally drunk…well, I don’t know what you’re saying.[/quote]

Becasue according to the law I am drunk. According to my own body I am not.

23

[quote]snipeout wrote:
If there are fewer doctors than there are cops, and way more medical negligence cases, why is there not a media frenzy over this stuff?

[/quote]

Because in general simple negligence is not newsworthy, intentional use of excessive force (especially when it’s done by cops) is newsworthy.

25

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Strange quote from the FDA article:

"In its report, To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System, the IOM estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors.

"A medical error, under the report’s definition, could mean a health-care provider chose an inappropriate method of care, such as giving a patient a certain asthma drug without knowing that he or she was allergic to it.

Or it could mean the health provider chose the right course of care but carried it out incorrectly, such as intending to infuse a patient with diluted potassium chloride --a potassium supplement-- but inadvertently giving the patient a concentrated, lethal overdose…

"Despite the recent focus on the IOM statistics, experts assure that the health system in the United States is safe. But its safety record is a far cry from the enviable record of the similarly complex aviation industry, which is being held up as an example for the medical world.

A person would have to fly nonstop for 438 years before expecting to be involved in a deadly airplane crash, based on recent airline accident statistics. That, IOM says, places health-care at least a decade behind aviation in safeguarding consumers’ lives and health."

Um, in 1999 the airlines were killing 44,000-plus Americans per year?

In fact, back in the days of the DC-3 the aviation industry had a far better safety record than this.

10 years behind?

[/quote]

It is a strange quote because the data upon which it is based does not exist.

The origin for these inflated “estimates” of unnecessary deaths is a notoriously inacccurate NEJM article of the early 1990’s, in which epidemiologic estimate for a population risk was applied to the population as a whole. In short, these deaths did not happen. (Compare all this to a similar poor estimate on Iraqi deaths in the Lancet.)

Further, the estimates include “errors”–whether grave or not–in patients who die of their disease or irremediable problems. (Dana Carvey had a grave error, but did not die. Many patients have minor mistakes which do not contribute to a lethal diagnosis.)

I do not condone errors, but perfection does not exist anywhere. The IOM seems to have compounded its own error through exaggeration.

26

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
snipeout wrote:
If there are fewer doctors than there are cops, and way more medical negligence cases, why is there not a media frenzy over this stuff?

Because in general simple negligence is not newsworthy, intentional use of excessive force (especially when it’s done by cops) is newsworthy.

The fact that he does not grasp this concerns me. His hopeless and flailing attempt at this analogy gives me pause as I consider I could encounter someone with such an intellectual vacuum that carries the power that his badge confers.
[/quote]

Simple negligence? Simple negligence by highly trained medical professionals causing death upwards of 90,000 times a year. Excessive force by police officers causing dare I say less than 300 civil rights violations in a 6 year block, which include deaths.

The fact that you don’t grasp the analogy is not my problem. 90,000 medical deaths makes me alot more scared of doctors than 300 civil rights violations on over 800,000 LE officers in this country over 6 years. I’ll take my chances with cops.

27

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

The origin for these inflated “estimates” of unnecessary deaths is a notoriously inacccurate NEJM article of the early 1990’s, in which epidemiologic estimate for a population risk was applied to the population as a whole. In short, these deaths did not happen. (Compare all this to a similar poor estimate on Iraqi deaths in the Lancet.)

Further, the estimates include “errors”–whether grave or not–in patients who die of their disease or irremediable problems. (Dana Carvey had a grave error, but did not die. Many patients have minor mistakes which do not contribute to a lethal diagnosis.)

I do not condone errors, but perfection does not exist anywhere. The IOM seems to have compounded its own error through exaggeration.

[/quote]

Good point. I have heard and read similar numbers before – perhaps ultimately coming from the same source, I don’t know – and the claims always seemed bizarre to me.

Not that I know it can’t be right, but it doesn’t seem plausibly right.

28

Edit: Nope, not worth it. Time to move on.

29

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The origin for these inflated “estimates” of unnecessary deaths is a notoriously inacccurate NEJM article of the early 1990’s, in which epidemiologic estimate for a population risk was applied to the population as a whole. In short, these deaths did not happen. (Compare all this to a similar poor estimate on Iraqi deaths in the Lancet.)

Further, the estimates include “errors”–whether grave or not–in patients who die of their disease or irremediable problems. (Dana Carvey had a grave error, but did not die. Many patients have minor mistakes which do not contribute to a lethal diagnosis.)

I do not condone errors, but perfection does not exist anywhere. The IOM seems to have compounded its own error through exaggeration.

Good point. I have heard and read similar numbers before – perhaps ultimately coming from the same source, I don’t know – and the claims always seemed bizarre to me.

Not that I know it can’t be right, but it doesn’t seem plausibly right.[/quote]

If you are interested, here is a critique of methodologic errors in the IOM report, and in the influential Harvard claptrap 0f 1991 (see ref. 6)

Of course, this is off topic, and does not detract in the least from snipeout’s point.
Perhaps I, too, would prefer my chances with the police rather than with doctors. I have often said that with a shortage of prisons, we should sentence criminals to medical care…but that would probably constitute cruel and unusual punishment.

30

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The origin for these inflated “estimates” of unnecessary deaths is a notoriously inacccurate NEJM article of the early 1990’s, in which epidemiologic estimate for a population risk was applied to the population as a whole. In short, these deaths did not happen. (Compare all this to a similar poor estimate on Iraqi deaths in the Lancet.)

Further, the estimates include “errors”–whether grave or not–in patients who die of their disease or irremediable problems. (Dana Carvey had a grave error, but did not die. Many patients have minor mistakes which do not contribute to a lethal diagnosis.)

I do not condone errors, but perfection does not exist anywhere. The IOM seems to have compounded its own error through exaggeration.

Good point. I have heard and read similar numbers before – perhaps ultimately coming from the same source, I don’t know – and the claims always seemed bizarre to me.

Not that I know it can’t be right, but it doesn’t seem plausibly right.

If you are interested, here is a critique of methodologic errors in the IOM report, and in the influential Harvard claptrap 0f 1991 (see ref. 6)

Of course, this is off topic, and does not detract in the least from snipeout’s point.
Perhaps I, too, would prefer my chances with the police rather than with doctors. I have often said that with a shortage of prisons, we should sentence criminals to medical care…but that would probably constitute cruel and unusual punishment.

[/quote]

Thanks doc. I am not slamming all doctors, I’m just stating that so much attention is drawn to police wrong doing that people forget that there are other very trusted people in this society that make far more costly errors.

32

[quote]snipeout wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
to all officers, thank you, but are there any bad cops?
To all doctors, thank you, but are there any bad doctors?

To come to the defense of someone simply because of a shared vocation or for any other shared link is illogical.

I actually did it because cop bashing is at least a once a month new thread in this forum. On the other hand we never see the medical community publicly dragged through the mud when they make way more life altering mistakes than police officers do.

When a police officer uses excessive force it is pounced on. When a doctor bypasses the wrong artery or performs the wrong procedure nothing is publicized unless this is the umteenth time the offense has been perpetrated by said doctor.
[/quote]

Apples and oranges. I would hope as an officer you would want injustice exposed at all costs because of the negative light that it projects on police officers as a whole. That is illogical as well, but a sad truth.
Competent doctors should be screaming at the top of their lungs to expose incompetence. Drives up their costs and stains perception as well.
I understand the negative light. Being over in Iraq for now 3 years, there is a LOT of subcontractor incompetence and I hope those responsible are treated accordingly. All contractors? no.
God speed to you and may he keep you safe. Thank your for your service in protecting our cities and streets.

33

because when you get a surgery, they make you sign papers. one of those papers is a consent paper, which talks about the risks that you are taking in a surgery and you sign it to show you understand this.

there is no stack of paper or dotted line to sign at to allow a police officer to beat the shit out of you, or shoot you in the back of the head execution style and then retire and go skiing.

interacting with a doctor is voluntary, theres no crime in not getting a surgery. interacting with a cop is involuntary, because resisting gets you arrested.

34

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Strange quote from the FDA article:

"In its report, To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System, the IOM estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors.

"A medical error, under the report’s definition, could mean a health-care provider chose an inappropriate method of care, such as giving a patient a certain asthma drug without knowing that he or she was allergic to it.

Or it could mean the health provider chose the right course of care but carried it out incorrectly, such as intending to infuse a patient with diluted potassium chloride --a potassium supplement-- but inadvertently giving the patient a concentrated, lethal overdose…

"Despite the recent focus on the IOM statistics, experts assure that the health system in the United States is safe. But its safety record is a far cry from the enviable record of the similarly complex aviation industry, which is being held up as an example for the medical world.

A person would have to fly nonstop for 438 years before expecting to be involved in a deadly airplane crash, based on recent airline accident statistics. That, IOM says, places health-care at least a decade behind aviation in safeguarding consumers’ lives and health."

Um, in 1999 the airlines were killing 44,000-plus Americans per year?

In fact, back in the days of the DC-3 the aviation industry had a far better safety record than this.

10 years behind?

[/quote]

health care proffesional here…

my problem with the medical errors hype is this.

typical story, i can give you THOUSANDS just like this.

57 year old male, 1-2 pack a day smoking habbit, obese, hypertension and diabetic who is non compliant with meds and diet restrcictions. comes in hospital for x-y-z problem. chest pain, resp distrss, ect. so this guy is a walking time bomb. things he does to his body by choice make him a medical nightmare, who can drop fucking dead of stroke or heart attack at any given time.

but despite this, if he is in the hospital at the time, and we make ONE FUCKING MISTAKE, and he dies, ITS ALL OUR FAULT??!!??!

unless you are in this buisness, i dont think you will understand what i am trying to say, but i felt i had to say it.

35

[quote]snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
snipeout wrote:
If there are fewer doctors than there are cops, and way more medical negligence cases, why is there not a media frenzy over this stuff?

Because in general simple negligence is not newsworthy, intentional use of excessive force (especially when it’s done by cops) is newsworthy.

The fact that he does not grasp this concerns me. His hopeless and flailing attempt at this analogy gives me pause as I consider I could encounter someone with such an intellectual vacuum that carries the power that his badge confers.

Simple negligence? Simple negligence by highly trained medical professionals causing death upwards of 90,000 times a year. Excessive force by police officers causing dare I say less than 300 civil rights violations in a 6 year block, which include deaths.

The fact that you don’t grasp the analogy is not my problem. 90,000 medical deaths makes me alot more scared of doctors than 300 civil rights violations on over 800,000 LE officers in this country over 6 years. I’ll take my chances with cops.

[/quote]

as already stated, most of these deaths were of an already high risk population. the 95 year old patient, advanced heart disease, lung disease, and severe dementia(not eating, incontinent of stool and urin) comes into hospital with a urinary tract infection (practically a constant chronic condition of elderely incontinent females), but while in the hospital gets pneumonia and dies. the lawyers claim some sort of medical negligence or error caused her death, but in the eldery population with many co-morbidities, they could just as well get pneuomina and die at home as well as in the hospital.

people die all the time for all sorts of things since the begining of time. in todays society, nothing bad ever just happens, there is always somebody to blame and somebody to sue.

36

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Strange quote from the FDA article:

"In its report, To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System, the IOM estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors.

"A medical error, under the report’s definition, could mean a health-care provider chose an inappropriate method of care, such as giving a patient a certain asthma drug without knowing that he or she was allergic to it.

Or it could mean the health provider chose the right course of care but carried it out incorrectly, such as intending to infuse a patient with diluted potassium chloride --a potassium supplement-- but inadvertently giving the patient a concentrated, lethal overdose…

"Despite the recent focus on the IOM statistics, experts assure that the health system in the United States is safe. But its safety record is a far cry from the enviable record of the similarly complex aviation industry, which is being held up as an example for the medical world.

A person would have to fly nonstop for 438 years before expecting to be involved in a deadly airplane crash, based on recent airline accident statistics. That, IOM says, places health-care at least a decade behind aviation in safeguarding consumers’ lives and health."

Um, in 1999 the airlines were killing 44,000-plus Americans per year?

In fact, back in the days of the DC-3 the aviation industry had a far better safety record than this.

10 years behind?

health care proffesional here…

my problem with the medical errors hype is this.

typical story, i can give you THOUSANDS just like this.

57 year old male, 1-2 pack a day smoking habbit, obese, hypertension and diabetic who is non compliant with meds and diet restrcictions. comes in hospital for x-y-z problem. chest pain, resp distrss, ect. so this guy is a walking time bomb. things he does to his body by choice make him a medical nightmare, who can drop fucking dead of stroke or heart attack at any given time.

but despite this, if he is in the hospital at the time, and we make ONE FUCKING MISTAKE, and he dies, ITS ALL OUR FAULT??!!??!

unless you are in this buisness, i dont think you will understand what i am trying to say, but i felt i had to say it. [/quote]

There is also a rate of extreme stupidity and gross negligence that is utterly unlike the example the FDA article peculiarly chose, the aviation industry.

I found it dubious that the rate was as high as the article claims, but that there are a lot of doctors making idiotic errors that really cannot be excused, I have no doubt. I would need no reason other than the idiot doctors I have had to deal with personally and idiot mistakes they have tried to make in my experience.

E.g., within seconds after my saying I am allergic to penicillin, trying to prescribe Augmentin. And then having to go look it up when I advised of the problem with this, and coming back visibly surprised.

Probably wouldn’t have killed me, true, but c’mon that is just stupidly ignorant. Doctors and nurses that I know personally also attest that they know of doctors that they would NEVER allow to treat any family member of theirs because they are so extremely bad. Yet they continue practicing. This DOES go on.

37

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Thanks doc. I am not slamming all doctors, I’m just stating that so much attention is drawn to police wrong doing that people forget that there are other very trusted people in this society that make far more costly errors.

[/quote]

First of all, people in your profession aren’t “trusted”. This is why myself, and everyone I know, does their very best to avoid police like the plague. Because we all know that the rule of law don’t apply to people with a badge.

Second of all, medical doctors can’t legally beat me, detain me, ruin my record and standard of living for the rest of my life, shackle me and put me in a cage.

These analogies are fucking retarded.

38

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Strange quote from the FDA article:

"In its report, To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System, the IOM estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors.

"A medical error, under the report’s definition, could mean a health-care provider chose an inappropriate method of care, such as giving a patient a certain asthma drug without knowing that he or she was allergic to it.

Or it could mean the health provider chose the right course of care but carried it out incorrectly, such as intending to infuse a patient with diluted potassium chloride --a potassium supplement-- but inadvertently giving the patient a concentrated, lethal overdose…

"Despite the recent focus on the IOM statistics, experts assure that the health system in the United States is safe. But its safety record is a far cry from the enviable record of the similarly complex aviation industry, which is being held up as an example for the medical world.

A person would have to fly nonstop for 438 years before expecting to be involved in a deadly airplane crash, based on recent airline accident statistics. That, IOM says, places health-care at least a decade behind aviation in safeguarding consumers’ lives and health."

Um, in 1999 the airlines were killing 44,000-plus Americans per year?

In fact, back in the days of the DC-3 the aviation industry had a far better safety record than this.

10 years behind?

health care proffesional here…

my problem with the medical errors hype is this.

typical story, i can give you THOUSANDS just like this.

57 year old male, 1-2 pack a day smoking habbit, obese, hypertension and diabetic who is non compliant with meds and diet restrcictions. comes in hospital for x-y-z problem. chest pain, resp distrss, ect. so this guy is a walking time bomb. things he does to his body by choice make him a medical nightmare, who can drop fucking dead of stroke or heart attack at any given time.

but despite this, if he is in the hospital at the time, and we make ONE FUCKING MISTAKE, and he dies, ITS ALL OUR FAULT??!!??!

unless you are in this buisness, i dont think you will understand what i am trying to say, but i felt i had to say it. [/quote]

i hear you, i work in the field.

even if they don’t die, they weigh 600 lbs, they get a bed sore under one of their millions of skin folds because its impossible for the regular staff to turn this person well enough.$$$$. i swear some fat people go to hospitals to do this, we get obese people coming in, short of breath, especially in the summer, and insist on staying in the ICU for a week. They’re short of breath because they’re fat and having apnea or getting up off the couch has become so physically demanding for them.

and then i get to hear those pro-fat nut jobs talk about how obese people dont inflate other peoples insurance or use excess care more than others. Absurd. My job exists solely because of fat lazy people, on both sides, normal nurses and physical therapists who are either overweight or massively out of shape they cant handle 50lb loads, and obese people weighing 500+ lbs.

its getting to the point that just seeing fat people, angers me. i drove by a dennys a little while back when they did the free meal for one day, a easy 1/4 mile long line of fat people waiting for free fucking pancakes. I heavily considered driving up on the curb for them.

/rant

39

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The origin for these inflated “estimates” of unnecessary deaths is a notoriously inacccurate NEJM article of the early 1990’s, in which epidemiologic estimate for a population risk was applied to the population as a whole. In short, these deaths did not happen. (Compare all this to a similar poor estimate on Iraqi deaths in the Lancet.)

Further, the estimates include “errors”–whether grave or not–in patients who die of their disease or irremediable problems. (Dana Carvey had a grave error, but did not die. Many patients have minor mistakes which do not contribute to a lethal diagnosis.)

I do not condone errors, but perfection does not exist anywhere. The IOM seems to have compounded its own error through exaggeration.

Good point. I have heard and read similar numbers before – perhaps ultimately coming from the same source, I don’t know – and the claims always seemed bizarre to me.

Not that I know it can’t be right, but it doesn’t seem plausibly right.

If you are interested, here is a critique of methodologic errors in the IOM report, and in the influential Harvard claptrap 0f 1991 (see ref. 6)

Of course, this is off topic, and does not detract in the least from snipeout’s point.
Perhaps I, too, would prefer my chances with the police rather than with doctors. I have often said that with a shortage of prisons, we should sentence criminals to medical care…but that would probably constitute cruel and unusual punishment.

[/quote]

I’m interested in learning more about this. I ran a quick google scholar search and it seems most of the articles I found referenced the 1999 IOM report you’re speaking of. However, most of them agreed with the numbers and some even suggested they may be low. Your article makes a good critique of the stats, however.

Do you happen to know of any other, similar studies that you can quickly reference here?

Cheers

40

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Strange quote from the FDA article:

"In its report, To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System, the IOM estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors.

"A medical error, under the report’s definition, could mean a health-care provider chose an inappropriate method of care, such as giving a patient a certain asthma drug without knowing that he or she was allergic to it.

Or it could mean the health provider chose the right course of care but carried it out incorrectly, such as intending to infuse a patient with diluted potassium chloride --a potassium supplement-- but inadvertently giving the patient a concentrated, lethal overdose…

"Despite the recent focus on the IOM statistics, experts assure that the health system in the United States is safe. But its safety record is a far cry from the enviable record of the similarly complex aviation industry, which is being held up as an example for the medical world.

A person would have to fly nonstop for 438 years before expecting to be involved in a deadly airplane crash, based on recent airline accident statistics. That, IOM says, places health-care at least a decade behind aviation in safeguarding consumers’ lives and health."

Um, in 1999 the airlines were killing 44,000-plus Americans per year?

In fact, back in the days of the DC-3 the aviation industry had a far better safety record than this.

10 years behind?

health care proffesional here…

my problem with the medical errors hype is this.

typical story, i can give you THOUSANDS just like this.

57 year old male, 1-2 pack a day smoking habbit, obese, hypertension and diabetic who is non compliant with meds and diet restrcictions. comes in hospital for x-y-z problem. chest pain, resp distrss, ect. so this guy is a walking time bomb. things he does to his body by choice make him a medical nightmare, who can drop fucking dead of stroke or heart attack at any given time.

but despite this, if he is in the hospital at the time, and we make ONE FUCKING MISTAKE, and he dies, ITS ALL OUR FAULT??!!??!

unless you are in this buisness, i dont think you will understand what i am trying to say, but i felt i had to say it. [/quote]

What you are saying is it’s like walk a mile in your shoes thing? It’s like not knowing what lead to a police officer having to use force that ended in a death, all they show is the guy being tased and flopping around for no apparent reason.

I am by no means condoning excessive use of force. On the same hand I am not saying all medical errors are the fault of the care giver. I used it to compare how there is such a large number of medical errors causing deaths as opposed to excessive force by police officers. People seem to excuse medical mistakes and negligence as an “oh well” type thing. If a police officer lacks judgement and is negligent its the end of the world.

I know my line of thinking isn’t going to sink in on the people who can’t stand the police. Cops get a bad rap because of something bad happening being front page news, or a friend of a friend got a ticket/arrested for ‘no reason’. Should I hate all doctors because a negligent doctor maimed my mother attempting to remove a fatty cyst?