I still have yet to hear why folks are so gung-ho for Obama’s economic plan-- what the hell is it?
Please, one of his supporters please help me understand.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I still have yet to hear why folks are so gung-ho for Obama’s economic plan-- what the hell is it?
Please, one of his supporters please help me understand.[/quote]
change
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
I still have yet to hear why folks are so gung-ho for Obama’s economic plan-- what the hell is it?
Please, one of his supporters please help me understand.
change[/quote]
He shall give every man, woman, and child, change for one dollar.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Can you give me a source for this claim? You guys keep saying that F/F were created and told to give poor people mortgages, can you prove it?
Beowulf, it was part of FDR’s “New Deal”. There’s tons of stuff out there.
FDR: The Original Sugar Daddy
[/quote]
Thanks!
My god… I think I’m slowly realizing how much my politics have changed since I started posting here…
It’s insane.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
I still have yet to hear why folks are so gung-ho for Obama’s economic plan-- what the hell is it?
Please, one of his supporters please help me understand.
change
He shall give every man, woman, and child, change for one dollar.[/quote]
And then tax the change?
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Can you give me a source for this claim? You guys keep saying that F/F were created and told to give poor people mortgages, can you prove it?
Beowulf, it was part of FDR’s “New Deal”. There’s tons of stuff out there.
FDR: The Original Sugar Daddy
Thanks!
My god… I think I’m slowly realizing how much my politics have changed since I started posting here…
It’s insane.[/quote]
You’re almost tolerable now. Almost…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
AynRandLuvr wrote:
<<< each human being, their lives, their property, their dreams and ambitions, are NOT the property of the community. >>>
[b]THEY’RE NOT!?!??!?
HOLEEE SHIT!!![/b]
I gotta stop watchin so much TV.[/quote]
You just saw our government take from one group (average Americans) and give to another group (bankers). The leadership spouts about helping someone then uses that idea to do harm to others. They use community welfare as an excuse and weapon.
Whoa, ARL…
What was to be done?
The majority, if not ALL, of those bankers and CEO’s are multi-millionaires. Even though they may have seen their net-worth drop and their options approach 0, the only way they are “hurt” is if they go to jail at some CEO Summer Camp.
On the other hand, millions of average people (“us”) have been, will be, AND WOULD HAVE BEEN HURT EVEN WORSE without these bailouts.
It really is a shame.
Mufasa
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Saturday, September 20, 2008
Maine Dems Host #1 Recipient of Contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie
Sen. Chris Dodd blocked reform attempts to avert current financial crisis
PORTLAND, ME - The Maine Democratic Party’s keynote speaker at their annual fundraiser in Lewiston Saturday evening is Senator Chris Dodd (D-Connecticut). While the party’s release announcing Dodd as their keynote speaker says that, “As chairman of the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, Dodd has provided necessary leadership of late in dealing with the nation’s financial crisis”, and the party’s executive director claims Dodd is “one of the nation’s most respected voices on economic issues,” the Maine Democratic Party fails to mention that Sen. Dodd is the number one recipient of contributions from mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and that Dodd blocked attempts to avert the current financial crisis.
Barack Obama is the number two recipient of contributions from these mortgage giants. Unlike John McCain, who warned Congress two years ago that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac needed to be fixed, Obama remained silent on the issue.
“John McCain warned Congress two years ago that mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac needed to be fixed,” said House Republican Leader Josh Tardy, (R-Newport). “Barack Obama was silent. Senator Obama may talk a tough game on the financial markets – but don’t be fooled. Obama actually put Fannie Mae’s CEO – who helped create this disaster – in charge of finding his Vice President. Fannie’s former General Counsel is a senior advisor to Obama’s campaign. And Obama took more money from Fannie and Freddie than any Senator except for Chris Dodd, the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates them.”
Maine Democrats should ask Sen. Dodd why he did not do anything to avert this crisis and instead blocked attempts to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac while taking more contributions from them than any other Member of Congress. And they ought to ask themselves why they support Barack Obama, who did nothing to avert the crisis, and instead, remained silent while taking the second largest amount of contributions from these mortgage giants.
This week, John McCain outlined his plans for reforming our financial markets, including calling for the formation of a Mortgage and Financial Institutions Trust (MFI). For more information on MFI, please go to http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/PressReleases/7d3490d0-677a-4912-9c3c-356c9da1eab4.htm
On a similar note, Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry were HUGE losers on the F/F fiasco:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSEtGBXG0C0s&refer=worldwide
… and you want these folks ‘leading’ the way with an economy?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
I still have yet to hear why folks are so gung-ho for Obama’s economic plan-- what the hell is it?
Please, one of his supporters please help me understand.
change
He shall give every man, woman, and child, change for one dollar.
And then tax the change?[/quote]
But only those who got 65 cents or more of the change from the dollar after which that windfall tax revenue would be used to buy dog biscuits for underprivileged puppies in Havana from a pet food manufacturer in Beijing at 12 dollars apiece by DC bureaucrats making 150 grand a year.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Whoa, ARL…
What was to be done?
The majority, if not ALL, of those bankers and CEO’s are multi-millionaires. Even though they may have seen their net-worth drop and their options approach 0, the only way they are “hurt” is if they go to jail at some CEO Summer Camp.
On the other hand, millions of average people (“us”) have been, will be, AND WOULD HAVE BEEN HURT EVEN WORSE without these bailouts.
It really is a shame.
Mufasa[/quote]
I don’t see how loading us up with even more debt helps us. The government is assuming the risk of bad mortgages so that the rest of the world, which bought these things in bundles as safe investments, won’t panic. All that does is drive the US treasury bonds closer to junk status. Holders of T bonds have to wonder if the federal government isn’t bound and determined to bail out everybody on the planet.
If you held a lot of Treasury bonds, wouldn’t you be just a bit more leery/watchful about these bonds now?
These mortgage guarantees are going to temporarily stop the collapse until investors around the world realize that our government is diluting the value of its debt instruments. That’s when the REAL honest to God collapse begins.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
On the other hand, millions of average people (“us”) have been, will be, AND WOULD HAVE BEEN HURT EVEN WORSE without these bailouts.
[/quote]
Wait a second! What you are saying here is essentially that we cannot allow anyone to make bad investments. Furthermore, you think taxpayers should foot the bill to this bad investing. If we do not allow investors to suffer the consequences of their actions then they will never learn. They will continue to keep making bad investments and know that Big Brother will be there when the bottom falls out with an upside-down piggy bank.
How is this good for the average person who has no money in the stock market? How is this fair to people who are careful and have been successful in the stock market? How is it good for people who save to have the value of their savings wiped out by fiat money creation?
What is best for the average person is for the market to crash so that there can be a correction. The economy is being treated like a child who doesn’t want to take his medicine; we keep allowing our child’s pleas to take the medicine away to affect our treatment of his health knowing that if he doesn’t take his medicine things will only be much worse for him later on. To carry the analogy one step further I would say that the overburdened banks destined to failure are like terminal cancer patients who need to be put out of their misery lest they infect the good spirits of everyone else.
We cannot keep propping up failure without consequence.
WHOA, Lift!
You would have been one of the LAST people I thought would have “Straw Manned” me.
This WAS NOT some statement about not allowing anyone to fail, or of personal responsibility. There are PLENTY of people going down the tubes financially, government bailout or not.
This was about a banking system that was quickly becoming skiddish about loaning money TO OTHER BANKS and of shoring up a Mortgage industry that is a significant part of the American Economy.
A mortgage industry that fails brings a lot of other industries and/or small businesses with it. And if banks don’t loan money, for things like small business loans to business expansion, we ALL lose.
To think that someone who is not invested in the stock market would not be hurt in a total collapse goes beyond the reasoning you often use.
I am very anxious to hear what the nature of this “correction” would be, and its consequences on our Economy (in general terms).
One last point I will concede:
If people couldn’t (or wouldn’t) prevent the mess we are in now; there is no way in hell to truly know what the long-term consequences of all this will be.
So your prediction, ARL, may well turn out to be true.
Mufasa
I’m with lift on this one.
I haven’t been around forever and I sure don’t know everything, but that little voice is telling me that we are now officially entering the new era of the economy by government fiat.
Save this, but not that, oh hell, just save it all.
Why, I beg of thee, WHY!!! does anybody believe that this government, that has nothing but economic wreckage in it’s wake is going to do anything, but add this to it’s long list of disasters.
Why does the old saying about insanity not apply here? [quote]Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result[/quote]
This is not only insane it’s flat out psychopathic. The more and bigger extra-constitutional responsibility we give DC the more they destroy and the more and bigger the responsibility we give them?
Can someone please explain to me how in any other area of life this wouldn’t be considered an example of drooling brain death.
I agree with you Tirib. However, I think Paulson and Bernanke probably had no choice in this one. The avg person would not have been willing to let this one correct itself. The pain and the length of that pain may have been too much. Something we will never know now.
I only hope that even the inept fed gov can somehow take assets purchased for cents on the dollar and turn a meager profit later on. Maybe, just maybe they will stumble their way into this scenario. This did happen with the savings and loan debacle.
My fear right now is that we go over board with too much regulation. The root of this problem was all the no doc loans - both the lenders and the borrower’s fault.
We don’t need new regs to cure that insanity. We just need some common sense. Now, that may be asking too much of Washington.
Believe me;
I DO NOT believe that more Government is an ultimate solution. As a matter of fact, our Government has proven over and over again that what it is great at is creating bureaucracies that often are wasteful and do more harm than good.
My only question with this mess is “What were the alternatives”?
While IN THEORY I agree with what many of you are suggesting (“Let ALL the bastards fail, and let the market adjust itself”)…the national and global consequences of doing that are far greater than some theoretical ranting on an Internet Forum.
Mufasa
Mccain did say this
�??John McCain. 25 May 2005, speaking to the Senate:
Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae�??s regulator reported that the company�??s quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were �??illusions deliberately and systematically created�?? by the company�??s senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.
The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight�??s report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives.
In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae�??s former chief executive officer, OFHEO�??s report shows that over half of Mr. Raines�?? compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.
The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator�??s examination of the company�??s accounting problems.
This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.
For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac�??known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs�??and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO�??s report this week does nothing to ease these concerns.
In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO�??s report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.
I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation.
If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.
I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.�??
We saw it coming.
We did nothing.
Executives and CEO’s made millions.
The Taxpayer’s are now holding the bag.
Great.
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
We saw it coming.
We did nothing.
Executives and CEO’s made millions.
The Taxpayer’s are now holding the bag.
Great.
Mufasa[/quote]
I’m no big Mccain supporter, but it does appear that he did more than Obama to foresee and attempt to do something about the Fannie/Freddie end of this mess anyway.
I’m not convinced that 20 years from now we would have been worse off just letting whatever the market would have done happen. That’s a better gamble than all these takeovers. Power once acquired NEVER goes back to the private sector. Just watch when they start lining their pockets even more with money from this now too.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
<<< the national and global consequences of doing that are far greater than some theoretical ranting on an Internet Forum.
Mufasa[/quote]
Lemme say one more thing on this and again I am not claiming any textbook erudition on these subjects at all.
In my view ANY economic entity so large and entrenched that we cannot survive without it should not ever come into existence. Don’t ask me the particulars, but when some business concern is supporting our entire country to the point where failure of it equates to failure of the nation something is wrong.