Re: The reference to data on things like competition. Thousands of studies on competitive behavior, risk taking behavior, aggressiveness, nurturing behavior… behavioral economists in particular study this like crazy. Competitive behavior in women vs men, among women, among highly-skilled athletic women who tend to enter competitions less frequently than highly-skilled athletic men, competitive behavior in boys vs girls in different cultures and at different ages… I’m kind of a fan of behavioral economics.
Re: Brain differences in males vs females. Many, known differences in brain chemistry, structure, information processing, activity levels between the sexes. And genes influence personality traits much more than we previously thought. We’re not exactly going out on a limb here to say we think “there’s some biology there.” We notice sexual divergence/ dimorphism, in our physical bodies, so why not our neurology? Some of the feminists really hate to go there because of the possible implications on equality if we were to find that female brains are “less” in some way. Of course there are many more similarities than difference in male and female brains.
Re: Cultural or Biological? Asking if something is biological vs cultural is often falsely simplistic. It’s not really a dichotomy in that innate does not mean unmalleable. Genes are influenced by environment. Our culture or environment influences our brain biology all the time, and it doesn’t take thousands of years of evolution. On an MRI, we can see measurable increases in grey matter after studying intensely over a period of a few months. Doc P. has spent years of his life trading stocks. I’ve spent years of my life working with special needs kids. There is every reason to believe that even if we started out with identical brains, the differences between my worldview and Doc P’s would have a biological basis at this point, as our brains have adapted to those different life experiences. I find that completely fascinating.
“Constant”? PP, if I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a million times–don’t exaggerate to make a point seem more compelling.
As for the occasional references that have been made to racism, sexism and bigotry…I won’t insult you by asking whether you deny these things persist in society. But I do have to ask: Is it your opinion that all three have reached some sort of baseline level, a level below which it is simply impractical to expect them to drop further? You know, sort of like the FDA’s acceptable amount of rat hair in peanut butter.
That was very funny. [quote=“EyeDentist, post:2044, topic:210559”]
I won’t insult you by asking whether you deny these things persist in society.
[/quote]
Oh, if you had asked me that question I would be seeing RED right now.
No, I don’t think this is as good as it’s ever going to get. My opinion is hopeful that we can do better. Somewhere way back in this thread I posted an article about diversity on campus. I don’t know if you read it, but I find it pretty concerning that we might be going in the wrong direction on how to fix it. I REALLY hated to see Black students at a few colleges demanding segregated dorms for freshmen this year. I was really glad that my son’s school randomly assigns freshmen, and he had the opportunity to make some great friends with kids who might have been over in that other dorm. Also, Intersectional Feminism is being interpreted in some really bizarre ways right now, and is being used by some women to justify a lot of really uncivil behavior toward men. It’s never great when the person who feels oppressed starts justifying oppression.
And - In case anyone is wondering. No, I don’t carry a bunch of facts about gender and competition around in my head all the time. I’m certainly not the smartest kid in the class, but it’s been fun to research that a bit.
The stuff about brains comes up when I teach. And I just find the differences to be really COOL, particularly the changes related to motherhood.
No, I’m not implying that ESPN watching isn’t cultural, or that it has no biological basis. Just saying that things get pretty complicated because we adapt, and adapt so FAST.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but I think you’re outlining effect, whereas you were asking about cause. Upthread PP did a good job of talking about valuable differences in her (female, feminine) personality and I agreed both with her and with what you’re saying. But do we behave this way because we experience periods and nurse children, or is it programmed in whether those things occur or not? I dunno. I do know that most women become attached to “the baby” during pregnancy much sooner than the father does. An embryo the size of an eraser it may be, but she loves it. He is probably just trying not to say the wrong thing.
Beyond that I’m not sure what causes me to be me. I love that I have a feminine nature. I love what it brings me, which is rewarding work (incredibly rewarding) (it’s been a good week) and the profound joy that comes with having a family and being the heart of that family, though that role is shrinking for me. Still, when my sons are dumped or disheartened they call for me, and my daughter is never far. My table is where we congregate, and now Hockey’s family is coming there, too. I love what I have with him, the way it works between us and the complimentary fit of it all. I love his strong arms and I adore being able to make him smile.
I know I’m softer than many men emotionally, and maybe even most - but I also know that there’s a great deal of overlap and I am less weak than many of the more bombastic men I encounter, who seem more fear-aggressive than courageous. My work puts me solidly in the middle of my socio-economically diverse community, and I’m brighter than most men I encounter, though by no means all. When I am more intelligent my math and science skills are superior. However, when I meet a male who is my intellectual match, there is a good chance that he will have developed those skills further than I have, while I will have superior verbal and interpersonal skills.
You are right that you are more aggressive and persistent than I, though I would question adventurous. In thinking about Hockey’s current month-long Alaska trip I might call him more willing to endure hardship than I am, and would identify that as a difference that seems to be widespread between men and women. Perhaps that IS adventurousness - or perhaps it’s something different. On a very snowy day I can look at my schedule and know that 8 out of 9 people will cancel their appointments - and always hope that the one 35-year-old guy is scheduled early rather than late, because he will not stay home to avoid the weather. So perhaps “adventurous” is fair. I will be at the office, too, until the 35-year-old comes and goes, but I’m driven by my unwillingness to let anyone down, not by my lack of concern for the weather.
Nice post. I’m surprised that we’re still discussing some of this - it seems to me that we KNOW there are differences. At this point isn’t the question to what extent social pressure influences the differences? And even there, we KNOW, due to information gleaned from programs like Title IX, that equality of opportunity will not result in equality of outcome.
Anyway, I always enjoy your posts, which tend to be nicely academic as well as a comfortable (to me) blend of liberal and conservative politics.
Indeed. Where we differ is in 1) precisely what those differences are, 2) what factors are responsible for those differences, and 3) what (if any) socio-politico-cultural adjustments should be made in light of those differences.
I too very much enjoy @anon71262119’s contributions to this thread. However, I would respectfully note that she has strongly-held sociopolitical beliefs which, to my reading of her comments, have heavily influenced–perhaps to the point of advocacy–the way she looks at the questions I identified above. (And no, I am not oblivious to the fact that many would riposte the exact same statement about my comments.)
This week men comprise 25% of my scheduled appointments. Flipping back to a random page in my planner (week of Feb 22nd) they were right at 50%. If I’d guessed, I’d have said that of the adults I see probably nearly half are men. Kids comprise maybe 20% of my caseload, with girls heavily outnumbering boys.
All the time, though I’m not sure what you mean by significant. Seeds are planted that alter everything as they grow, right? But sometimes they take time to grow. Sometimes I get to have epiphanies in session, and my worldview changes instantly. Sometimes it’s a shared epiphany and we’re both rocked, other times I have it alone and don’t share it because focus would be shifted away from the client.
I talk to anywhere from 5-10 people (average 7) four days a week. Some are not high functioning, but many are extremely so. I have a couple of college professors on my caseload, and probably another dozen very interesting and engaging smart folk who aren’t PhDs. So yeah, people - both the higher and lower functioning - say things that alter my views. We talk about an incredible range of things. Politics, global issues, guns, men/women, child rearing and the state of education - everything, really. And they fall on all sides of the many divides, given their diversity of life experience (along with the high falutin’ I have probably a half-dozen recently recovering addicts, and maybe another half-dozen ex-cons).
Clients also behave in ways that I get to learn from as an observer, both positively and negatively.
Going back to the gender stuff, I had a woman in my office whose husband left his job to start a business from home. He was very needy at first (isolated) and this day she was complaining that he’d gotten upset that she hadn’t noticed or thanked him for vacuuming. She said “Does he thank me every day for going to work when I get home? Has he ever thanked ME for vacuuming?” and I was all set to get all “YEAH” about it when I realized that if I mowed the lawn, which I don’t, ever, I would sort of expect Hockey to be like “Did you mow the lawn!” And me agree that against all odds, I HAD mowed the lawn. And then he would thank me profusely, because as Mac Dre observed, “that’s not my job.” Same thing plowing the driveway. I do it, but not when he’s around. If he was home and I decided to do it before work? He would notice, and notice big.
So the client and I together had an un-feminist moment, which subtly altered both of our relationships, which may not be a significant change, but on the other hand what is more significant than a happy relationship?
@EyeDentist Got any ideas of how to eradicate the bigotry, racism, and sexism of which you speak, considering that all the races–with their respective different nationalities, languages, religions, beliefs, and ways of doing things–are sharing the same USA’s turf and we have millions of stupid people of all kinds living here?
Good. I was worried it was going to be some 70/30 debacle.
The assumption being men won’t seek help.
Significant as in: changes the way you see the world, question your current relationships, your past, so on and so forth. Someone that makes you reevaluate everything and come out on the other side, different.
I’ve had books do this to me.
1984
A primer on Rules for Radicals, just to name two
Some college professors, roommates and friends, my wife… The kids…
Yes, but isn’t that why we’re here? Each of us can read the raw data. I’m here to find out what people I know, to some small degree, think. So when I read PP, and I’m sure when she reads me, I take in her thoughts with an awareness that these are filtered through her particular lenses. I know more about PP’s personal life than I do yours, but I read you similarly - there are lenses through which you view the world and they color or inform your perception. Pushharder’s religious beliefs in combination with his geographic location and the culture of that place create another perceived reality.
To me, these are more interesting than empirical data alone. As John Mayer rightly says (though he’s speaking of the media) “when they own the information, they can bend it all they want.”