If that is your impression, it is seriously off-base. How one makes the leap from 'ED feels TG individuals should be able to use the BR of their gender identity’ to 'ED hopes Western civilization is overthrown and replaced with a Bolshevik Utopia’ is, frankly, beyond me.
Oh man, I love this site. My next client is here, or I would dig in.
But @BrickHead, I’m curious - for like a week now I’ve disagreed with almost everything ED has said. Why do you categorize me with him in terms of our goals? Unless it’s the side argument with Chushin, which has had me stating over and over again that two (three?) weeks ago I posted in support of ED’s stance on shared bathrooms, which is where the discussion was then. But since the question of athletic competition has arised I’ve pretty much fallen in opposition to ED right down the line. I suspect that’s going to continue as we, um, untangle gender overall.
In closing for now (I may go back and address your post more specifically later because my man is wildernessing in Alaska) let me state for the record that I absolutely, positively know how blessed I am. In fact, I feel like I keep saying that. “Great good luck to be a feminine woman,” etc.
You’ve used a lot of bricks to build this house. A lot fancier ones than plain old TG bathroom bricks. The approving response toward biological males competing against females, and the ensuing argument that the competitive advantage could be somehow equalized were the marble pillars that pretty well finished it, as far as I was concerned.
That Harrison Bergeron reference was a very apt one.
For what it’s worth, your views have come off as far more extreme than Em’s, imo; though I’d wager that overall she does agree with you more than she disagrees.
Your arguments here honestly reminded me of going at it with @dbcooper, way back when, when he would plow headlong into some idea so crazy to me I felt like he had to be trolling me. But he was a lot more fun because he had genuine character, a mouth so foul it would’ve made a pirate blush, and wasn’t afraid of a good bit of old fashioned name calling.
Regarding MTF TGs competing against cis-gendered females, I think a more-fair description of my position would be as follows:
- The jury is still out re the degree to which a post-castration trans-female enjoys a competitive advantage in athletics. Simply put, it is an empirical issue about which good data are scarce.
- Even if it turns out that trans-gendered females enjoy certain advantages, it would not render their participation in female sports any more illegitimate/unfair than that of any other female whose medical condition happened to provide them a competitive advantage (eg, the gigantism example I discussed above).
I’m going to go out on a limb here (in the sense that I may piss off people whom I genuinely like and respect–I’m looking at you @EmilyQ, @anon71262119 and @kpsnap) with what I feel is the explanation for why some object to MTF TGs participating in sports, but don’t object to, say, the tall girl with gigantism participating. I think the crux of the matter is this: Deep down, those who object don’t really consider the TG female to be truly female. (Note: I realize there are some objectors who will say ‘Damn right I don’t think their females!,’ as this has been their argument all along. I’m not offering this as an explanation for their attitude/beliefs.)
For me, what it boils down to is this–if one believes post-transition TG females are as female as their cis-gendered counterparts, it is difficult (for me) to see how one can suggest they should be excluded from participating in female sports.
I see that while I was composing a respectful response to your respectful comment, you reverted to what seems to be your default mode of interaction–boorish, pointlessly personal, inexplicably hostile. That’s a shame.
Don’t be so sensitive, man. This is what this site used to be, I’m not going to change just because you don’t like a little locker room churlishness. There don’t have to be any hard feelings. Certainly aren’t, here.
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Btw, you might see that my default mode of interaction is pretty nice, when you lighten up a bit, yourself.
Others will vouch for me. Feel free to ask.
The empirical approach!
Okay, back to work for me.
However, I will add that this is correct. Until the transition is complete, for purposes of competition at any but recreational levels (unless no one objects, in which case fine), I believe biology should be the determining factor. Once the transition is complete, things become much muddier for me.
That’s because they aren’t.
I didn’t do something right. It looks like Emily said that and was ED. I don’t know how to use this fancy interweb.
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EyeDentist: I’m not at all offended by your assertion that perhaps I don’t truly consider a transgender female to be a true woman. Yes, I think you’re right to a degree. A transgender woman is never going to have the biological experiences of a woman (menses, childbirth, breastfeeding, menopause).
But I do want to point out that it was I who brought up the potential medical/biological reasons for transgenderism (post #14, to be exact). And I still think that’s a distinct possibility.
All true. And I would add, if they transition relatively late in life, neither will they have to go through the misogyny, sexism and sexual harassment so many cis-gendered women are forced to endure.
Relatedly, the status of MTF TGs is a strong point of disagreement within feminist circles. Some feminists say they should be welcomed fully; others (known as trans-exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs) think they should be shunned. If you’re interested, here’s a well-written introduction to the controversy:
I like the medical model - I don’t think anyone posting in this thread is unaware that some babies are born with indistinct genitalia. It is not much of a leap to assume that there can be internal gender confusions, for lack of a better word.
But I don’t think equitable treatment requires that the larger group suffer disadvantage in order for the smaller group to feel “right” or “true.” In cases where no one is disadvantaged (e.g. bathrooms, IMO) allowances should be made for comfort and safety. Where that is not the case, choices have to be made. I’m not sure where or how that line should be drawn, but I believe (assuming we’re still talking about competitive sports) there needs to be a line.
I’m home from work and have just read this again - and again I have no idea what you’re asking about, or why me. Is this about your perception of my politeness policing? Because other than that I’m drawing a blank. As for the policing, I don’t think I do that at all - years ago you threatened to fight me and I doubt I reacted with more than a startled laugh. Headhunter called me all sorts of names and I called him far worse. I retreat from fights with certain posters for reasons of my own (the reasons vary), while others I mock without hesitation. So again, not sure if this is that but if so, what you were seeing this week was me apologizing for something I believe I shouldn’t have to quell Chushin’s upset, which ultimately just inflamed it. While this thread was active with my policing crime the Gene Simmons/Prince thread was a train wreck of disrespectful behavior and poor debate, which I was certainly aware of, and didn’t care about in the least.
If it’s about my desire that compassion or empathy have a place in out collective decision-making, well, that IS me counting my many blessings.
(BTW, you assume correctly. Mine is a very pleasant life, generally speaking.)
Coming back to this - post-transition is different from physically-male-but-on-hormone-therapy. I understood you earlier to say that the intent of the person (I am male) is what matters, not the physiology.
You seem to be suggesting that transition has not occurred until/unless the individual has had reassignment surgery. Is that the case?
That is correct. I differentiate between full transition and partial. Many, maybe most, will never transition fully, and that’s okay - I think intent is enough in most arenas of participation. They should be able to identify as they choose and I or you should be none the wiser unless they choose to confide in us. Competitive sports are different.
There’s not enough information to look at this currently, but I’ll be very curious to see over time how many FTM are challenging rules that bar them from competing against cis-men compared to MTF challenges. Not because I think anyone is trying to play dirty pool, but because people in general will opt not to disadvantage themselves if given a choice.
I’m having a hard time waking up this morning, but as I sat gazing at this line just now it occurred to me that maybe it’s bullshit. Half of the people I work each day with disadvantage themselves despite having a choice. I have myself done it many times.
So let me amend that to say that people at the top of their field or discipline tend to act in their own best interest in pursuing those fields and disciplines.
I just reread the first post in this thread, which contained this. You, ED, seem to believe that a transperson can’t NOT transition if they’re really and truly deep-down TG. We differ on this.