Masters Degree versus Law Degree

Off Topic
21

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:
Here’s a practice LSAT question:

Of the following, which would a reasonable person pick if the end result of each course of action was a job at McDonald’s?

A. Get a degree in communications.

B. Spend more money and get a masters in communications.

C. Spend even more money and get a law degree.[/quote]

My current job pays 3 times a Mcdonalds salary, so worse case Ontario I can I waste money on all 3 and still end up slightly better than that. I can’t go back in time and unpick my useless undergad, so have to go forward from there.
[/quote]

Well if you have the money, and you really want to practice law, go for it. Worst case scenario will be making what you’re making now (assuming you can fall back to a job like you have now if you don’t get a law job).

If you’re thinking masters, I would forego the masters in communication (unless it’s really important to you) and get an MBA.

As Cgunz said, you need to be at the top of your class to get the big bucks. Nevermind 50-60 hour weeks…more like 70-80 including weekends. Biglaw/Midlaw requires you bill at minimum 1900 hours a year (general average), and you won’t be able to bill clients for everything you do (which adds to the requirement). The substantive issues are complex/interesting though if you like business.

But again, if you find you really enjoy law, go for it. Not all law work is boring as Cgunz suggests. Although, if you’re a bitch associate at a personal injury firm, you’ll probably get bored taking depos of car accident victims.

22

Option B: Become an engineer.

/thread

23

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:
Here’s a practice LSAT question:

Of the following, which would a reasonable person pick if the end result of each course of action was a job at McDonald’s?

A. Get a degree in communications.

B. Spend more money and get a masters in communications.

C. Spend even more money and get a law degree.[/quote]

My current job pays 3 times a Mcdonalds salary, so worse case Ontario I can I waste money on all 3 and still end up slightly better than that. I can’t go back in time and unpick my useless undergad, so have to go forward from there.
[/quote]

Well if you have the money, and you really want to practice law, go for it. Worst case scenario will be making what you’re making now (assuming you can fall back to a job like you have now if you don’t get a law job).

If you’re thinking masters, I would forego the masters in communication (unless it’s really important to you) and get an MBA.

As Cgunz said, you need to be at the top of your class to get the big bucks. Nevermind 50-60 hour weeks…more like 70-80 including weekends. Biglaw/Midlaw requires you bill at minimum 1900 hours a year (general average), and you won’t be able to bill clients for everything you do (which adds to the requirement). The substantive issues are complex/interesting though if you like business.

But again, if you find you really enjoy law, go for it. Not all law work is boring as Cgunz suggests. Although, if you’re a bitch associate at a personal injury firm, you’ll probably get bored taking depos of car accident victims.[/quote]

Although I generally agree, let me say this–I don’t know of “bitch” associates at personal injury firms. Associates at personal injury firms often handle cases before they are even out of law school. Bitch associates exist at giant firms with 1900 billable hour requirements–like one at which I clerked last summer. Having been on both sides of the fence, I chose small time stuff, such as PI and wrongful discharge law. Not because the cases are always interesting, but the people generally are, and I have actually made real differences in people’s lives. At a big firm, the cases may be more interesting, but the work rarely is, and is certainly not for the first few years. Not everyone feels this way, and I recognize that. But to the OP, if you go the law route, at least consider small firms, where I think you would find life much more interesting and tolerable.

24

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:
Here’s a practice LSAT question:

Of the following, which would a reasonable person pick if the end result of each course of action was a job at McDonald’s?

A. Get a degree in communications.

B. Spend more money and get a masters in communications.

C. Spend even more money and get a law degree.[/quote]

My current job pays 3 times a Mcdonalds salary, so worse case Ontario I can I waste money on all 3 and still end up slightly better than that. I can’t go back in time and unpick my useless undergad, so have to go forward from there.
[/quote]

The minimum wage for my state is $7.25(I think), so if you make 3 times that it puts you at $21.75 per hour. That’s not too bad if you are single. Even then it’s livable if you have a family. Is there any room for upward movement or anything like that at your current job? I suppose you could look into that.

Is your degree more “art” or “communications?” If it’s more on the communications side then you could go into the radio industry. I know someone who did that and she like it. Not sure about the pay though.

25

[quote]
Well if you have the money, and you really want to practice law, go for it. Worst case scenario will be making what you’re making now (assuming you can fall back to a job like you have now if you don’t get a law job).

If you’re thinking masters, I would forego the masters in communication (unless it’s really important to you) and get an MBA.

As Cgunz said, you need to be at the top of your class to get the big bucks. Nevermind 50-60 hour weeks…more like 70-80 including weekends. Biglaw/Midlaw requires you bill at minimum 1900 hours a year (general average), and you won’t be able to bill clients for everything you do (which adds to the requirement). The substantive issues are complex/interesting though if you like business.

But again, if you find you really enjoy law, go for it. Not all law work is boring as Cgunz suggests. Although, if you’re a bitch associate at a personal injury firm, you’ll probably get bored taking depos of car accident victims.[/quote]

Although I generally agree, let me say this–I don’t know of “bitch” associates at personal injury firms. Associates at personal injury firms often handle cases before they are even out of law school. Bitch associates exist at giant firms with 1900 billable hour requirements–like one at which I clerked last summer. Having been on both sides of the fence, I chose small time stuff, such as PI and wrongful discharge law. Not because the cases are always interesting, but the people generally are, and I have actually made real differences in people’s lives. At a big firm, the cases may be more interesting, but the work rarely is, and is certainly not for the first few years. Not everyone feels this way, and I recognize that. But to the OP, if you go the law route, at least consider small firms, where I think you would find life much more interesting and tolerable.[/quote]

My fault for using the wrong word. I was trying to convey the image of the ambulance chasing firms where you deal with knuckleheads on a daily basis. I would have to agree corporate is more “bitch” work in the sense of being a document jockey when you first start out, and that’s also the reason why laid off associates from biglaw have trouble finding employment outside of the biglaw market. Again, I agree with you…if he really likes the law, settling into a small to midsize firm will be a better fit… quality of life is better, and you get more practical experience as you said.

26

Depends currently lawyers aren’t in demand so be prepared to be a paralegal.

27

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:
Here’s a practice LSAT question:

Of the following, which would a reasonable person pick if the end result of each course of action was a job at McDonald’s?

A. Get a degree in communications.

B. Spend more money and get a masters in communications.

C. Spend even more money and get a law degree.[/quote]

My current job pays 3 times a Mcdonalds salary, so worse case Ontario I can I waste money on all 3 and still end up slightly better than that. I can’t go back in time and unpick my useless undergad, so have to go forward from there.
[/quote]

Well if you have the money, and you really want to practice law, go for it. Worst case scenario will be making what you’re making now (assuming you can fall back to a job like you have now if you don’t get a law job).

If you’re thinking masters, I would forego the masters in communication (unless it’s really important to you) and get an MBA.

As Cgunz said, you need to be at the top of your class to get the big bucks. Nevermind 50-60 hour weeks…more like 70-80 including weekends. Biglaw/Midlaw requires you bill at minimum 1900 hours a year (general average), and you won’t be able to bill clients for everything you do (which adds to the requirement). The substantive issues are complex/interesting though if you like business.

But again, if you find you really enjoy law, go for it. Not all law work is boring as Cgunz suggests. Although, if you’re a bitch associate at a personal injury firm, you’ll probably get bored taking depos of car accident victims.[/quote]

I’m not basing this idea on TV, although I will admit I do not know enough about the practice of law, which is why I’m enjoying this discussion right now. Working huge hours is not a big deal (at least with my current perspective) 2 jobs, school and training has had me working upwards of 65 hours plus homework and social life already, I don’t much enjoy down time.

What I’m basing this on is partly the fact law has been recommended to me throughout my life, but moreso because of a course I took last semester. The entire focus was Canadian Supreme Court Transcripts and their implications on the Charter right to free speech and communication. It focused on landmark cases like Irwin Toy and the Oakes Test for example (not sure if American’s would recognize these but in short they deal with child advertising and whether an infringement on personal rights is legally justified).

I love the idea that there is exhaustive, mutually exclusive logical application in words. The way the supreme court transcripts read is as if law is math. I found it fascinating. I would likely be interested in contract and business law before family or criminal.

Does this sort of interest reflect what law is, or am I off base?

28

[quote]

The minimum wage for my state is $7.25(I think), so if you make 3 times that it puts you at $21.75 per hour. That’s not too bad if you are single. Even then it’s livable if you have a family. Is there any room for upward movement or anything like that at your current job? I suppose you could look into that.

Is your degree more “art” or “communications?” If it’s more on the communications side then you could go into the radio industry. I know someone who did that and she like it. Not sure about the pay though. [/quote]

Upward movement is what scares me about my job. I’m a barback at a night club. So I make 100-200 a night in tips cash. Problem is I’m capped in my hours per week (15-25). I could either become head barback eventually and get up to 40 hours a week or I could become bartender which would be a cut in pay until I gained some seniority. I don’t want to get comfortable working in night clubs, it sucks you in and leaves you screwed after mid 30’s (if you even have that much patience).

The pay is good enough to be fairly comfortable for now but this is not a career.

As for my degree, first two years are artsy, now it’s getting more technical. The main focus right now is on quantitative and qualitative research, ie surveying, sampling, content analysis. I’ve also got some courses focusing on negotiation and mediation as well as advertising (which I quite enjoy)

Also since MBA has cropped up, something I’ve also considered… What is everyone’s take on getting one straight out of an undergrad? Was under the impression this was frowned upon.

29

Kind of in your shoes, graduated… was considering advanced degrees. Though I am definatley wanting to get an MBA … I would do it right out of undergrad but thats rather useless. Ive seen mba’s at job fairs… which no mba should be at a job fair applying to the same shit I am applying to. Not only do you need work experience to get into a good MBA program, and similar to law schools, good mba programs are pretty much the only ones worth going to, but the work experience can allow you to understand and apply the MBA coursework. I have been told this by very very smart people who have started their own companies and have MBA’s.

The thing is, it is such a rush to get six figures so soon out of college that kids chase these JD’s and MBA’s without understanding the reasons why they are doing it.

30

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:
Here’s a practice LSAT question:

Of the following, which would a reasonable person pick if the end result of each course of action was a job at McDonald’s?

A. Get a degree in communications.

B. Spend more money and get a masters in communications.

C. Spend even more money and get a law degree.[/quote]

My current job pays 3 times a Mcdonalds salary, so worse case Ontario I can I waste money on all 3 and still end up slightly better than that. I can’t go back in time and unpick my useless undergad, so have to go forward from there.
[/quote]

Well if you have the money, and you really want to practice law, go for it. Worst case scenario will be making what you’re making now (assuming you can fall back to a job like you have now if you don’t get a law job).

If you’re thinking masters, I would forego the masters in communication (unless it’s really important to you) and get an MBA.

As Cgunz said, you need to be at the top of your class to get the big bucks. Nevermind 50-60 hour weeks…more like 70-80 including weekends. Biglaw/Midlaw requires you bill at minimum 1900 hours a year (general average), and you won’t be able to bill clients for everything you do (which adds to the requirement). The substantive issues are complex/interesting though if you like business.

But again, if you find you really enjoy law, go for it. Not all law work is boring as Cgunz suggests. Although, if you’re a bitch associate at a personal injury firm, you’ll probably get bored taking depos of car accident victims.[/quote]

I’m not basing this idea on TV, although I will admit I do not know enough about the practice of law, which is why I’m enjoying this discussion right now. Working huge hours is not a big deal (at least with my current perspective) 2 jobs, school and training has had me working upwards of 65 hours plus homework and social life already, I don’t much enjoy down time.

What I’m basing this on is partly the fact law has been recommended to me throughout my life, but moreso because of a course I took last semester. The entire focus was Canadian Supreme Court Transcripts and their implications on the Charter right to free speech and communication. It focused on landmark cases like Irwin Toy and the Oakes Test for example (not sure if American’s would recognize these but in short they deal with child advertising and whether an infringement on personal rights is legally justified).

I love the idea that there is exhaustive, mutually exclusive logical application in words. The way the supreme court transcripts read is as if law is math. I found it fascinating. I would likely be interested in contract and business law before family or criminal.

Does this sort of interest reflect what law is, or am I off base?[/quote]

Well that’s pretty much what you’ll be doing in law school…reading cases and applying them to different fact situations (unless Canadian schools are different from the US schools). In practice, depending on what you do, you’ll be researching case law and statutes to write briefs on behalf of your clients, writing memos for senior associates/partners, drafting contracts/wills in your client’s best interests to avoid future litigation, reviewing agreements, counseling clients on what to do, etc… You can do transactional work or litigation, or both if you work at a smaller firm.

31

[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Its coming toward the end of my undergrad degree (Arts with Specialization in Communications) I have this semester and another 3 courses to go. I will graduate with an approximate B+ to A- average in Dec '10. (Ie 7.9 GPA out of 10.)

What is everyone’s take, on what would be more useful at this point given economy, opportunities etc?
Few things to consider/ponderings that have occured to me
-I don’t know what I want to do with my life.
-Masters would only take 1 year, so I could do Law Degree after, if I got into Law I’m certain I would not go back for a masters. (It would be Masters of Organizational Communication).
-Master’s would be easier to get into, I’m on the cusp with Law and have few extra cirriculars ie difficult.
-Law Degree opens more, but would rack up huge debt.
-Law is way more specific and focused
-Masters Degree is cheaper, TAing job that comes along with it would pay for it essentially.

I’m also going to consult an Academic and Career Advisor, but the people generally employed at my university for this don’t strike me as the best for life advice.

Any thoughts or questions are welcome, the more I write and think about this the more it will help me.

Thanks guys![/quote]

As a fellow canadian, and I don’t mean to be mean, but the degree you have will get you a very limited entry-level position. I’m not trying to be an asshole, but for the most part arts degrees are fairly useless (unless you are using them as a stepping stone to a professional program). By useless, I mean anticipating a great job and standard of living after graduating.

From the tone of your post it sounds like you want another degree to give you a skill set that makes you marketable to institutions/companies who will in turn pay you money for your services. It also sounds like you are willing to dedicate 4 years to another program. I’ll assume this because you are interested in becoming a lawyer. This is not the only option.

Here is a list of masters (and after degree programs) that can probably suit your needs. I don’t know your interests, but here they are (dont mean to emphasize pay, but most of these will start you off at a modest 60k/year:

BScN (nursing after degree) - don’t knock it, lots of potential here in canada

MLIS - master of library science, these people are NEEDED by many institutions

M.Sc. audiology - work or make your own hearing clinic

M.Sc. physical therapy - self explanatory

Masters in occupational therapy

Bachelor of Education (after degree) - teaching in canada = good pay, job security, amazing benefits/pension, teaching your passion, etc.

MBA - might not be a good idea, but its an option

MSW - masters social work. not going to be rich, but you might find it rewarding.

Actuary - hard as fuck, but you will get paid quite well.

Designations in business (CFA, CA, CMA, CGA, etc, etc)

Engineering/Lab/Respiratory/etc Technologist training

Also, your degree will probably help you if you were applying for civil service jobs such as RCMP, local police, firefighting, etc.

Hope that helps.

Unless you are passionate about your subject I do not see any real economic value in a MA or MSc program.

32

Actuary - Not going to lie, I had to wikipedia it to know exactly what an Actuary is, but this sounds INTERESTING! If you have any more information about this I’d love to hear it. I’m going to look into this for sure.

Designations in business (CFA, CA, CMA, CGA, etc, etc)- Does my degree even give me this option or would I be looking at a BA in Accounting or Business first? (This could have me looked at another 6 years just to achieve any post graduate education.

Essentially at this point I’m willing to enhance my education, but I dont want to restart. I think 8 years and 2 undergrad’s is a waste of resources. However, a Masters is affordable and quick and would help in government positions. One of my professor’s today strongly recommended it and specifically mentioned that it would not overqualify me for too many positions.

Unless I figure out some life’s calling that demands it I don’t think there will be another undergrad. I’m stuck with useless communications and have to move foward from there.

Again I appreciate all the great advice.