Howd u get them? Im looking for something for mass but can seem to find anything good? Can ya help me out here mate?
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
TONEdef wrote:
Love your posts on this thread Prisoner. It goes against everything I thought I knew about PCT, but I’m always open to new ideas. I’d love not to have to use Clomid or Nolva during PCT, as neither of them agree with me.
Do you use any natural suppliments during your PCT to try and restimulate natural test production. For instance I’ve read a lot of good things on T-Nation about Alpha Male and was thiking of including it post cycle. What are your views on these types of suppliments?
pct is all about restoring homeostasis - your body’s natural state. So why would you add something else into the equation? Alpha Male is cornerstoned by tribulus, which is a sythetic LH analog much like hcg, except ALOT weaker. This would suppress your hpta to some extent, and is better taken during cycle to maintain size and function of your testes, then taken post cycle, when you are trying to get your pituitary gland to do the work.
[/quote]
I thought I read somewhere that Cy recomended Alpha Male & Methoxy-7 as part of PCT, when Androgel wasn’t avaliable.
Also how about Carbolin 19 for PCT?
[quote]Nomancer wrote:
I thought I read somewhere that Cy recomended Alpha Male & Methoxy-7 as part of PCT, when Androgel wasn’t avaliable.
Also how about Carbolin 19 for PCT?[/quote]
These are great supplements if you are a drug free athlete, and to use while you are drug free, but they will not restore your hpta to full function.
If Androgel is available, by all means use it, but the majority do not have access, so testosterone enanthate, or cypionate is the alternative.
As the saying goes - you wouldn’t bring a knife to a gun fight… so why would you use nutritional supplements as your primary means of recovery from a steroid cycle?
P-22
I used AAS about 3 years ago. You said that if you come off your cycle with test that there is no crash. I was hurt in an accident and just quit using 800mg of prop a week. I felt like shit for 2 to 3 months after word, and didn`t feel normal for about 9 months. So is there a limit to the amount of test use at the end of the cycle to avoid such a problem from happening again?
Thank you for all your help…
[quote]priest-fan wrote:
P-22
I used AAS about 3 years ago. You said that if you come off your cycle with test that there is no crash. I was hurt in an accident and just quit using 800mg of prop a week. I felt like shit for 2 to 3 months after word, and didn`t feel normal for about 9 months. So is there a limit to the amount of test use at the end of the cycle to avoid such a problem from happening again?
Thank you for all your help…[/quote]
Since Test prop is very quick releasing ester, comming off 900 mg/ week dosage cold turkey is not advisable. Tapering involves gradually titrating the testosterone down below natural physiological norms, giving your hpta the time it needs to respond.
Comming off that amount of test so quickly would have left you in quite a catabolic state, not to mention an accident/ injury, which stimulates cortosol production - you body naturally turns catabolic, drawing from its stores of skeletal muscle for proteins to use in the healing process.
Everyone has their own opinion, so here’s mine:
I feel that by tapering off testosterone you are only extending the duration ON AAS, thus making recovery more challenging.Why? Because if a successful and healthy recovery is based upon the removal of ALL exogenous hormones in the shortest time frame possible(remember, suppression is a result of many factors, namely dose and duration on AAS) then why make this more challenging by allowing such a small amount of AAS to circulate the bloodstream?
I don’t believe this makes sense because the dose needs to be supraphysiologically superior to endogenous production otherwise you are just continuing to suppress your hpta and replacing what is being shut down.
Afterall, we don’t know for sure what amount will suppress the hpta, so I feel the best bet is to keep the dose in a supraphysiological amount for the time intended to be “ON” and begin pct in a time frame that corresponds to when your last shot was given.
I usually recommend waiting until blood levels are below 200mg to be safe, but the type of ester and dose ran during cycle will determine when you are at this point. Once there, I’d suggest nolvadex to be ran at 20mg/d for 2-3 weeks depending on duration of cycle along with a non-hormonal anabolic agent such as Methoxy-7 or Carbolin 19.
LAST, I agree that an AI is a must for time on AAS as this will minimize the suppression d/t aromatization.
MK
The question i have, is if test is tapered off gradually enough, you eventually reach a level below your physiological norm. So why would your body not compensate to restore this level to normal? This way you are recovering gradually while still keeping normal test levels. It sounds good to me? Can this be dis-proved?
^ I 100% agree.
This is the best post I’ve read in a while, though I’m surprised Bushy isn’t entering the fray;-D
I’m seriously considering trying this Test tapering with my next cycle, but my question is with Arimidex. Would it not be a good idea to use both Arimidex and Clomid in unison? Without blood tests it’ll be hard to gauge if the dosing levels are correct with the Arimidex. With the Clomid in your system any aromatizable steroids that have not been inhibited will be blocked by the Clomid at the estrogen receptor.
With these two in place the hypothalamus will register the decrease in estrogen quicker, and the hpta will kickstart. Clomid also has the advantage of improving blood cholesterol to some extent, which is a bonus considering the actions of AAS.
Any comments?
I think this subject along w/ alot of other finer points is just too minor of a detail to worry about. I’ve NEVER had a problem w/ restarting production and I’ve NEVER used an anti-E either. Tapering may be yesterday’s technology but works for me. It’s probly a highly individualized thing tho. Some guys may require it (esp. those who use 2+grams/wk) and others may not like those keep they’re dosages much ligher. Who knows for sure? Anthony Roberts def needs to weigh in on this one.
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Everyone has their own opinion, so here’s mine:
I feel that by tapering off testosterone you are only extending the duration ON AAS, thus making recovery more challenging.Why? Because if a successful and healthy recovery is based upon the removal of ALL exogenous hormones in the shortest time frame possible(remember, suppression is a result of many factors, namely dose and duration on AAS) then why make this more challenging by allowing such a small amount of AAS to circulate the bloodstream?
MK[/quote]
The approach of quitting ‘cold turkey’ is still valid when dealing with short cycles up to 6 weeks. It also however depends on the drugs used. If you use longer acting esters, of drugs, such as equipoise, or nandrolone, a test bridge is the most optimal way to proceed, and it doesn’t matter the length of cycle as time is needed for blood levels of these steroids to fall to a level where they won’t interfere with recovery.
If these drugs are still around in large enough levels to say represent 25% of the amount of testosterone you naturally produce, then that means 1/4 of your potential testosterone production is blocked, which inturn means 1/4 less converted DHT - (what testosterone converts to which drives your libido). In addition to this you also have account for the presence of progesterone, a hormone will linger, causing suppression, and you have no control over. During this period of time, supplement with testoterone, because it doesn’t matter what pct drug you use, you are not going make any headway in restarting your hpta.
Now as you stated, “time” is a factor of suppression, so therefore under the premis of: “the longer you are ‘on’ the more difficult recovery will be” What is the logic of comming off cold turkey, and experiencing the hormone crash, Then taking a SERM, and perhaps hcg - which I won’t even get into here, and then playing that waiting game - the period of time where libido is lethargic at best, workouts are flat, and drive is nonexistant, while the drugs slowly leave your body and you gradually begin to recover. In the 6+ weeks it would take to fully recover, you could have use a testosterone taper, and not experienced a single aformentioned side effect. Some bodybuilders are just gluttons for punishment however.
Now as far as the concern of “extending the time you are on AAS” this is unfounded, for as soon as levels of steroids fall below supraphysiological levels You are no longer technically ‘on cycle’. Your body has no way of determining the difference between synthetic or endogenously produced testosterone, therefore as long as total hormone levels fall below physiological norms, you will no longer hold on to your size, your receptors will readjust, and your body will begin returning to normal i.e. blood lipid levels, liver enzymes, hematocrit, e.t.c.
Once calculated levels of non-testosterone hormones have fallen to insignificant proportions along with there metabolites, where they will not interfere with recovery, then you can begin to gradually taper off the testosterone.
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
I don’t believe this makes sense because the dose needs to be supraphysiologically superior to endogenous production otherwise you are just continuing to suppress your hpta and replacing what is being shut down.
MK[/quote]
Actually my friend what you said here, makes absolutely no sense whatsover???
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Afterall, we don’t know for sure what amount will suppress the hpta, so I feel the best bet is to keep the dose in a supraphysiological amount for the time intended to be “ON” and begin pct in a time frame that corresponds to when your last shot was given.
MK[/quote]
To the contrary we are well aware of this fact. HRT is mainstream medicine these days. It is generally accepted that natural norms for test production fall in the sub 200mg of testosteorne per week, so tapering down from this amount will alow the body to normalize all its functions gradually and smoothly, without experiencing a crash. Since the hpta opperates on a negative feedback loop, as hormones gradually fall bellow your own natural physiological norm, your pituatary will begin to increase LH secretion, which will inturn increase production of natural testosterone.
As you continue to taper down the hrt, your own hpta will continue to pick up the slack. The key being gradual enough and giving your body time to adjust. This a is a much more healthier and successfull method, Then coming off cold turkey, and setting up oneself for a crash.
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
I usually recommend waiting until blood levels are below 200mg to be safe, but the type of ester and dose ran during cycle will determine when you are at this point. Once there, I’d suggest nolvadex to be ran at 20mg/d for 2-3 weeks depending on duration of cycle along with a non-hormonal anabolic agent such as Methoxy-7 or Carbolin 19.
MK[/quote]
As I said in my first paragraphs if you have any exogenous aas left in your body, other than synthetic testosterone, recovery of hpta will be delayed, irregardless of how much serm, or other pct supplement you use.
You must wait untill ALL exogenous aas has cleared your body.
[quote]mikekatz wrote:
LAST, I agree that an AI is a must for time on AAS as this will minimize the suppression d/t aromatization.
MK[/quote]
High blood levels of estrogen have also been found to kill testicular cells. So yes there are many reasons to keep estrogen at normal male levels throughout the cycle.
[quote]TONEdef wrote:
This is the best post I’ve read in a while, though I’m surprised Bushy isn’t entering the fray;-D
I’m seriously considering trying this Test tapering with my next cycle, but my question is with Arimidex. Would it not be a good idea to use both Arimidex and Clomid in unison? Without blood tests it’ll be hard to gauge if the dosing levels are correct with the Arimidex. With the Clomid in your system any aromatizable steroids that have not been inhibited will be blocked by the Clomid at the estrogen receptor.
With these two in place the hypothalamus will register the decrease in estrogen quicker, and the hpta will kickstart. Clomid also has the advantage of improving blood cholesterol to some extent, which is a bonus considering the actions of AAS.
Any comments?[/quote]
If you use an aromatase inhibitor, Clomid is unnessessary as there will be no excess levels of estrogen to block.
There won’t be anyneed to improve blood libid levels, as they will return to normal once you taper your test dose down to hrt levels.
Clomid also has some pretty nasty side effects itself. Using it post cycle means you are just adding more junk into your body when you should be removing it as your body is trying to return to normal/ homeostasis.
Remember every drug has side effects, even pct drugs. The less drugs you use, the better!
Again I agree 100% ^
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
mikekatz wrote:
Everyone has their own opinion, so here’s mine:
I feel that by tapering off testosterone you are only extending the duration ON AAS, thus making recovery more challenging.
Why? Because if a successful and healthy recovery is based upon the removal of ALL exogenous hormones in the shortest time frame possible(remember, suppression is a result of many factors, namely dose and duration on AAS) then why make this more challenging by allowing such a small amount of AAS to circulate the bloodstream?
MK
The approach of quitting ‘cold turkey’ is still valid when dealing with short cycles up to 6 weeks. It also however depends on the drugs used. If you use longer acting esters, of drugs, such as equipoise, or nandrolone, a test bridge is the most optimal way to proceed, and it doesn’t matter the length of cycle as time is needed for blood levels of these steroids to fall to a level where they won’t interfere with recovery.
If these drugs are still around in large enough levels to say represent 25% of the amount of testosterone you naturally produce, then that means 1/4 of your potential testosterone production is blocked, which inturn means 1/4 less converted DHT - (what testosterone converts to which drives your libido).
In addition to this you also have account for the presence of progesterone, a hormone will linger, causing suppression, and you have no control over. During this period of time, supplement with testoterone, because it doesn’t matter what pct drug you use, you are not going make any headway in restarting your hpta.
Now as you stated, “time” is a factor of suppression, so therefore under the premis of: “the longer you are ‘on’ the more difficult recovery will be” What is the logic of comming off cold turkey, and experiencing the hormone crash,
Then taking a SERM, and perhaps hcg - which I won’t even get into here, and then playing that waiting game - the period of time where libido is lethargic at best, workouts are flat, and drive is nonexistant, while the drugs slowly leave your body and you gradually begin to recover.
In the 6+ weeks it would take to fully recover, you could have use a testosterone taper, and not experienced a single aformentioned side effect. Some bodybuilders are just gluttons for punishment however.
Now as far as the concern of “extending the time you are on AAS” this is unfounded, for as soon as levels of steroids fall below supraphysiological levels You are no longer technically ‘on cycle’.
Your body has no way of determining the difference between synthetic or endogenously produced testosterone, therefore as long as total hormone levels fall below physiological norms, you will no longer hold on to your size, your receptors will readjust, and your body will begin returning to normal i.e. blood lipid levels, liver enzymes, hematocrit, e.t.c.
Once calculated levels of non-testosterone hormones have fallen to insignificant proportions along with there metabolites, where they will not interfere with recovery, then you can begin to gradually taper off the testosterone.
mikekatz wrote:
I don’t believe this makes sense because the dose needs to be supraphysiologically superior to endogenous production otherwise you are just continuing to suppress your hpta and replacing what is being shut down.
MK
Actually my friend what you said here, makes absolutely no sense whatsover???
mikekatz wrote:
Afterall, we don’t know for sure what amount will suppress the hpta, so I feel the best bet is to keep the dose in a supraphysiological amount for the time intended to be “ON” and begin pct in a time frame that corresponds to when your last shot was given.
MK
To the contrary we are well aware of this fact. HRT is mainstream medicine these days. It is generally accepted that natural norms for test production fall in the sub 200mg of testosteorne per week, so tapering down from this amount will alow the body to normalize all its functions gradually and smoothly, without experiencing a crash. Since the hpta opperates on a negative feedback loop, as hormones gradually fall bellow your own natural physiological norm, your pituatary will begin to increase LH secretion, which will inturn increase production of natural testosterone.
As you continue to taper down the hrt, your own hpta will continue to pick up the slack. The key being gradual enough and giving your body time to adjust. This a is a much more healthier and successfull method, Then coming off cold turkey, and setting up oneself for a crash.
mikekatz wrote:
I usually recommend waiting until blood levels are below 200mg to be safe, but the type of ester and dose ran during cycle will determine when you are at this point. Once there, I’d suggest nolvadex to be ran at 20mg/d for 2-3 weeks depending on duration of cycle along with a non-hormonal anabolic agent such as Methoxy-7 or Carbolin 19.
MK
As I said in my first paragraphs if you have any exogenous aas left in your body, other than synthetic testosterone, recovery of hpta will be delayed, irregardless of how much serm, or other pct supplement you use.
You must wait untill ALL exogenous aas has cleared your body.
mikekatz wrote:
LAST, I agree that an AI is a must for time on AAS as this will minimize the suppression d/t aromatization.
MK
High blood levels of estrogen have also been found to kill testicular cells. So yes there are many reasons to keep estrogen at normal male levels throughout the cycle.
[/quote]
Prisoner, my friend, your idea of tapering off test looks good on paper, but in the real world things don’t always go as planned.
Also, please realize that everyone on this board is entitled to their opinion. Whether it be based on scientific or anectdotal evidence. My advice was given based upon the success I’ve had over the last 3-4 yrs. of AAS use, which has allowed me to go from 220lbs. to as high as 260lbs. in single digits while on cycle. And now, after being completely off for 6 months, weighing in the 240’s w/ obliques is not too bad, so my recovery must have went ok w/ my previous protocols.
the dose needs to be supra-physiologically superior to endogenous production otherwise you are just continuing to suppress your hpta and replacing what is being shut down.
MK
Actually my friend what you said here, makes absolutely no sense whatsover???
LMK what you don’t get and I’d be happy to explain it for you.
MK
MK I don’t meant any offence to you, however you may take it…
Yes, everyone here is entitled to their own opinion, However and I have the right to voice my opinion and defend my opinion, which I have with solid argument.
I am definitely not on here saying 'this is the way you should do pct because my name is Prisoner#22, I have 1500 posts to my credit, I weigh 240 lbs, and you can still see my obliques.
I have clearly laid out why you should taper, with good argument and explaination. No one has yet to be able to challenge my theories, other than to say It won’t work. Well I have proved to myself it works. And am willing to share the truth with anyone who will listen.
I may not be on the boards as much as I used to, but I still return all pm’s sent, and many pm’s I get are about failed pct.
I have no other motive then to help users have the most successful pct possible.
Not trying to offend anyone, I am just trying to open up people’s minds - There are too many “guru’s” out there that own publications, or sell pct products who would lose out if everyone just tapered off cycle with testosterone. Think of all the research sites that would lose sales.
Granted there are products out there that are not suppressive to the hpta but are still anabolic like Methoxy-7, I don’t include those.