Masculine Excellence Requires Discipline

I’ve been there, I was doing about a 1000kcal daily deficit 6 days a week and the last few months were hideous. Unless you have got a specific event to be lean for I wouldn’t stress it. Without wishing to sound too clichéd this shits a marathon not a sprint. I also found that my metabolism slowed down and I was plateauing and essentially wasted several months not losing anything.

Running a deficit now where I only have a 500-600 deficit and my training quality is good, energy levels are good, I’m consistently making progress around 0.75-1lb fat loss a week and am confident my muscle loss is at a minimum.

Your sleep levels are likely not doing you any favours, 5 hours just ain’t enough and lower sleep as you probably already know, means more food cravings.

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I like your training style. In!

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First off, thank you for taking the time to look over my log and provide feedback.

How would you quantify “close”?

I’m not going to challenge you on this, i plan my re-feeds a bit intuitively, usually around my leg days. These re-feeds are usually ~250cal less deficit, mostly carbs. Math shows I’m probably in a greater deficit than I think (should have only lost 6 lbs per plan but I lost 7). There is also a good chance that I simply needed a small mental break from the deficit, and I would argue that even if this is true, it is a net gain as it provides more energy and a mental reprieve at a fairly low cost. Also, I’m aware that a re-feed is not the same as a cheat day, I was using the term cheat day as a term to say I fell off the wagon; if you look, I haven’t had many cheat days.

I’m okay with this, as long as it gets me to my goal. I’ve estimated my fat loss to be about 10lbs if I run this diet, based on calories. I’ve also noted that it is probably best used as a finisher diet and that I’m going to wait a few more weeks, or until I’m at 210-215lbs to start as l believe I will be sustainably lean at 200-205lbs.

Unfortunately yes, at least during the week. I work full time with 2 hours of commute and take classes at night. I also have a wife and daughter to be there for. Admittedly, the wife has it out for my sleep schedule, but I wouldn’t be getting more than 6 hours of sleep regardless. I’m well aware how much this impacts my aesthetic and life goals; I’ve been working on it.

I know 1000cal deficit isn’t sustainable long term, but tbh i don’t need it to be. I’ve got a fair amount of muscle on my frame and I don’t think I’ll need to be much leaner than 200, which is 30lbs total from start. I have what I need to break plateaus, and if it turns out I need more information, I have the super knowledgeable people of this forum to learn from. The thought of having to diet for 6+ months just to reach a modest level of leanness is outright discouraging so I’d rather just get it over with.

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No worries. I feel as if I made a lot of mistakes, and paid the price, and I’m trying to convert that into something positive by checking in on others. It’s tough, though. I can come across as abrasive.

Well, here’s that abrasive bit. From what you’ve stated

and your latest check-in pic, I don’t think you are close yet. When your waist at the navel is somewhere around 32-34 then maybe. As it is now, I suspect you are still carrying fat everywhere and not just on your abs and for men the abdominals is usually the last place the fat disappears.

Then it is not a refeed. A refeed should be maintenance or slightly above maintenance (~250 calories).

Then take it. Hard work gets a lot of credit, and that is fine, but hard and smart work should be more lauded. If you manage to actually take a break (eat at maintenance) then, by all means, do so.

I approve of this line of reasoning. If you can establish a maintenance intake by tracking what you eat during that time you won’t have to rely on math any longer. Be prepared for an initial weight gain as you hold more water though. Carbs especially are water retentive. That could set you up for doing something like the MATADOR-diet which will allow you to alternate harsh deficits with maintenance eating.

Then I would say you are cutting too harshly for too long. If you are in a sustainable deficit, you’ll be hungry but if there is some modicum of food discipline/control present then falling off the wagon shouldn’t happen.

Sorry to hear that, kudos for all that you are juggling.

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i guess i wasn’t sure what to call it - was just trying to get a slight energy/recovery improvement over the standard deficit so i went with the term “re-feed” as it sounded better than “i ate more”. Good to know

I had actually just started cutting, was only about 2 weeks in and decided to cut harder. Falling off the wagon in this sense really only applied to one day at about 3300 calories, which is in line with maintenance calories - just not accurate to macros. I think mentally this was just a day off while adjusting to actually cutting for once, but nothing to worry about. :slightly_smiling_face:

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12/7/2021 - push
slept about 5.5 hours (blame the wife for not-sexy reasons)… obviously still not enough. Argued and stood my ground like a true married man, so I still came out the losing party lol. Tired, but alert enough to make do


hit a 5RM PR on Incline bench at 245 today, felt i could still do more but didn’t push it. Didn’t “feel” most exercises and felt like I looked a bit flat, but still had a decent session. Had a weird strain under left armpit/pec/tricep while doing dips so I switched for cable triceps ext. Scale read 224 today but I’m not putting much thought into it. Blood test for Testosterone levels in the AM. Will post results here and potential new thread if relevant.

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If you have a low result be mindful that you have a lot of confounding factors. Poor sleep, seemingly stressful life, not sure how happy you are with your marriage? And you are in a deficit! Even training hard can suppress T-values. I might not remember the numbers exactly, but I believe that if you want to know your actual T-levels you’d want 4-5 days off from all training and 7 days off from all hard training.

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Wouldn’t i want to know my t levels as they stand with my normal day to day life? I mean, having low t from a hard training session or low sleep makes sense, but if I’m always training hard or usually short on sleep - this effectively IS my T level, no?

I got 8 hours of sleep last night because I got to sleep in

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I stand my ground until I can’t stand the unhappiness of my wife. Usually takes a maximum of 30 minutes for me. She can stay upset a long time, and doesn’t budge, so it is almost always me that budges haha.

I agree with this, but perhaps your daily life doesn’t normally include a 1,000 calorie deficit. I say get it done on a normal day, after normal sleep, normal routine. If you always train 4 days a week, doing blood work during a 4 training day week makes sense to me.

I did two tests, one where I took a few days off, and slept really well the night before. TT was like 480 (300-1000 was about the range), and FT was 14 (10-28). Then I did it during a typical week, TT was 370, and FT was 10.

I guess I figured that I wanted to keep living how I was with training, and I got on TRT. It didn’t add tons of muscle. Mostly helped me have about the same amount of muscle at a lower body fat that I couldn’t have done IMO without TRT.

My lifestyle wasn’t and isn’t perfect, but it wasn’t terrible either. I had occasional nights of drinking when parties happened and such. I figured I could get my levels to a bit below average or maybe even average if I lived like a monk. Maybe if I thought I could be top of range with cleaning stuff up, I would do that. Wasn’t worth the trade off for me.

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I don’t drink and I don’t party, I just have a lot of commitments between work, school, family and my personal goals. I also train 5-6 days a week, although on deficit its more consistently 5x per week. Would certainly appreciate the benefits of TRT but if my bloodwork STILL doesn’t qualify with everything I’ve done - I don’t think I could justifiably call it “TRT” anymore.

The wife stays at home with our daughter so she understands (only recently) that I can’t be expected to do everything I do AND stay up late to entertain her. Before I started pursuing my degree, I won a lot less arguments :sweat_smile:

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I’m not a doctor, I’m just opinionated. Maybe that is a discussion you should have with your healthcare provider/urologist/endocrinologist.

If you care to hear my opinion, I can’t quite agree with you. But, I do speak from a biased point of view and since I’m speaking from a position of bias feel free to weigh what I say but don’t assume that I’m correct (or wrong). I’ll elaborate on my bias at the end of this post.

Before elaborating on why I don’t agree, I should probably ask: why do you believe you need TRT? What symptoms are you experiencing? And, are they not explained by other factors in your life?

My line of reasoning to counter your conclusion would be that if your T is within decent ranges* and your lifestyle suppresses it below that threshold then, no, I don’t think it is as easy as saying that this is effectively your T-level as there is nothing problematic with your ability to produce sufficient testosterone. I’m assuming, I don’t know this to be true, but I’m assuming that for instance the T eaten up by training isn’t not being used. I assume it’s actually being spent. I recall an old Charles Poliquin article stating that when athletes came into camp they oftentimes illicited symptoms of low T and by having them deload their levels returned to where they were expected to be. Then they went back to hard training, but it was a clue that taking the foot of the gas every once in a while might be a good idea.

I’m not saying your line of reasoning is wrong, I do not know, but I’d like to point out a parable that I’ve drawn. I don’t know if you know this, but creatinine levels are usually elevated in training populations (and/or? people that consume a lot of protein) as a consequence of the training. It is also elevated if kidneys are shutting down. If we evaluate your line of reasoning on a merely logical basis, then if you have elevated creatinine levels when you take a blood test you should assume your kidneys are shutting down and not explain it by virtue of your lifestyle.

*let’s say decent as opposed to normal as that span encompasses a bit more than where you’d be presumed to feel and function well depending on your age

My bias is that I’m actually on HRT but it is questionable if I should be. I was being blind to how much of a deficit I’d been in and was running and ended up receiving HRT, and now I have to go off to figure out if it is really required. Unlike in some other countries the only TRT here is Nebido, so it has a very long half-life and will take a significant amount of time to clear out. Also, no PCT.


Here’s an addendum. Let us postulate that you do not stop training before your test and that you come up with something that is lowish but not so that you receive any care. So, you gain nothing. Let us compare that to you resting, getting a result now that shows your T is fine, and then in a few years when you are checking your blood again, you take the same kind of rest, test your T and it is significantly lower in a way not adequately explained by aging now then you have a data point worth seriously considering.

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Mood swings, occasional angry outbursts without a good reason, low energy, low libido, tendency to not take important matters as seriously as i ought to, strength is reasonable but i feel it is low compared to the duration of my training (biased opinion), and i feel that my muscles are often lacking in visibility unless i’m actively flexing them (there’s probably a grower/shower anecdote in there somewhere).

Some of them certainly can be explained by other life factors, without question. I can’t blame “low energy” on low T, knowing i only get 6 hours of sleep on a good night. I don’t want you to think i’m writing off your opinion on this, because truly - i am thankful you are taking the time to share them. I agree that my current lifestyle lends itself to lower T values, but i disagree that this should stop me from seeking to treat low T symptoms in this case. Normally i would start by altering lifestyle before medicinal treatment, but i have very little to alter about my lifestyle that i either can or am willing to do, although i truly need more sleep, and i am reconciling that with my wife.
I believe in my case, where very little can be altered to produce more natural T, that treating these symptoms (test results pending) is a quality of life improvement. School will be over in ~2 years or so, unless i decide to go for a masters, and i intend to be in a living situation that allows me to NOT travel an hour to and from work daily; also allows me better likelihood of quality sleep/duration. I will certainly be done with my current cut well before then, allowing maintenance or slight surplus/deficit to have minimal effect on my natural T levels.

At ^ time, i do not see a justification for TRT or similar treatment, unless my natural T values are such that it would be required already.

I took my test this morning and trained as i normally would leading up to it (sorry). When my results come back, the values might still be:

  • within normal range - which most certainly means that i’m not suffering from low T; in this case, i see no justification for me to be on TRT regardless.

OR

  • Low or below normal range, which i would argue should be treated as i stated above - at least until my lifestyle is friendlier to my natural T production

This is someting i considered, and although i cannot see the future - i do not see myself stopping my training anytime soon as i have been training for about 12 years, only ever increasing in dedication. Should i get my bloodwork done in a few years, i see no reason as to why i would have stopped training prior to getting tested in the future either. That being said, if my T levels drop in the future, it should still be noticeable via testing given the same baseline of training.

This is still a very good point regardless, I just believe the lifestyle changes that would normally be recommended to correct poor T levels cannot reasonably be changed in my case - if testing proves my suspicions, i believe symptoms should be treated until lifestyle can be more amicable to my natural T levels.

To be clear, you have trained for 12*52=624 weeks and taking a week off is inconceivable to get less confounding variables when measuring your health markers?

That is a valid counterargument but T is sensitive. What if you trained harder? Had an extra bad night? Apparently didn’t eat as much as you thought you did because you’ve been training as a hell-fiend and had your appetite suppressed somewhat?

I’m just suggesting taking a test that is somewhat variable, and reducing the number of inputs that cause that value to fluctuate. Would you be open to relaying your lifestyle factors to your doctor so that when they are interpreting the numbers with you that they have that context?

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I could take a week off and have no issues, i just dont fully see the value in doing it tbh. I’m not saying i will NEVER take a week off for it, im just saying i’m looking for relief for my symptoms given my current lifestyle… changing factors such as training prior to taking this test would inherently alter the values outside of what they would be during a normal week for me.

Potentially, but honestly i would need to know my doctor better. Most would listen to lifestyle factors and simply say “you need to sleep more”, then tell me to go on my way. If i knew my doctor was like-minded, or ‘progressive’, i wouldn’t think it unreasonable to mention these things.
Of course, this inherently means i would need to know the doctor agrees with me before I tell him/her about my lifestyle, so :sweat_smile:

Any doctor following standard protocol will address lifestyle factors before bringing actual medical factors into the mix. So what happens if the lifestyle factors are in a temporary state that cannot really be adjusted to correct deficiencies?

12/8/2021 - Legs
Took 5-HTP before bed last night, had a hard time falling and staying asleep, but got 8 hours in. Felt well rested too. Got my blood tested this morning and I meet with my Dr next week to discuss results.


315 for 5x5 on squats felt really good, I tried 365 on one set and didn’t feel as good so I went back down. Legs were surprisingly resilient today, normally I’m broken off after squats but I felt good afterwards for a change. Hammies still felt like shit doing ham curl, but that’s pretty typical. Also got a really good quad pump in, which hasn’t happened in a while. Maybe it’s the 5-HTP or maybe it’s the 8 hours of sleep, but this training session actually felt good (no shit sherlock). Possible rest day tomorrow, we’ll see.

UPDATE
I decided to move my re-feed up to tonight and put down a solid extra 75g of carbs (at only about 400 extra calories). I don’t think I’m going to skip tomorrow so I might as well get that extra fuel ready tonight.

get your results?

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I have an appointment this weds with the doctor to go over them.

Took a short break in training/diet because I’m running a fever. Haven’t trained since Friday, but will get back to it once I’m recovered.

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Best wishes

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I got the preliminary results, I’ll share what was given to me and then I’ll post the actual results when I’m able to.

SHBG: 15 [10-50]
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone: 2.388 [0.55 - 4.78]
Testosterone, Total: 335 [241 - 827]

Still coming out of this cold/flu but ill be back to work tomorrow and maybe even back to the gym, we’ll see how this body soreness goes

They didn’t want to prescribe anything because 335 total T is within range. Thoughts?

Tagging @throwawayfitness @mnben87 @Voxel because y’all have some expertise i would like to hear, if you don’t mind

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