Marvels: The Avengers (Trailer)

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181

[quote]Bujo wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

Not a bad article. Basically he wants Thor to be written like the "gods’ in the DC universe.

If Marvel wrote Thor like that they would get the same complaints that DC gets for Superman. Like, [whiny ass bitch font]“He’s too powerful, I can’t relate.” [/whiny ass bitch font], and other vaginal seepage. If Vertigo wrote a book using that model for Thor it would probably kick all kinds of ass for 60-100 issues.[/quote]

Here’s my problem with that. Superman is an alien on another planet dealing with weak Earthlings, mostly. Thor is a Asgardian champion who travels to different worlds and dimensions battling beings on par with his strength or stronger. When he’s on Earth, he holds back his full strength to protect people and he tries to understand problems of humans. In Asgard, he can deal with a wide range of problems, but he doesn’t have to hold back as much.

I’ll argue with you about Superman over PM.

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[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

That article completely ignores the greater mythology Kirby built around the Norse gods. For gods from different religions to co-exist in the MU, it was a necessary step. All deities are given credit by their worshippers for creating life, in the words of Connor Mcleod: “there can only be one”.

There is no practical way to give Thor his full due as a god without putting the Asgardians at the top of the religious tree (that would mean that Asgardians created life on Earth), and the fans who feel hard done by would be shit out of luck as the writers would have run out of ways to use him years ago. They could create worthy foes for an ‘unbeatable’ Thor, but he is still going to lose sometimes, and if he is the only hero powerful enough to battle these enemies, then we may as well just get rid of The Avengers altogether. Why would Thor need them?

Besides that, Marvel Thor is no more the Thor worshipped by vikings than the Perseus from Wrath of the Titans is the same hero spoken of by the ancient Greeks. I really don’t see what the big deal is; it’s not as if Pagan religious groups are up in arms over the ‘inaccuracies’ in the movie and comic books…

[/quote]

Huh, sorry for the reply, but… I just want Thor to keep his title of God of Thunder. Calling him a Demi God or Prince of Thunder is a just a cop out in my book.

I read your post entirely, I just can’t find anything to argue against.

183

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

That article completely ignores the greater mythology Kirby built around the Norse gods. For gods from different religions to co-exist in the MU, it was a necessary step. All deities are given credit by their worshippers for creating life, in the words of Connor Mcleod: “there can only be one”.

There is no practical way to give Thor his full due as a god without putting the Asgardians at the top of the religious tree (that would mean that Asgardians created life on Earth), and the fans who feel hard done by would be shit out of luck as the writers would have run out of ways to use him years ago. They could create worthy foes for an ‘unbeatable’ Thor, but he is still going to lose sometimes, and if he is the only hero powerful enough to battle these enemies, then we may as well just get rid of The Avengers altogether. Why would Thor need them?

Besides that, Marvel Thor is no more the Thor worshipped by vikings than the Perseus from Wrath of the Titans is the same hero spoken of by the ancient Greeks. I really don’t see what the big deal is; it’s not as if Pagan religious groups are up in arms over the ‘inaccuracies’ in the movie and comic books…

[/quote]

Huh, sorry for the reply, but… I just want Thor to keep his title of God of Thunder. Calling him a Demi God or Prince of Thunder is a just a cop out in my book.

I read your post entirely, I just can’t find anything to argue against.
[/quote]

Wol, that’s something you’ll have to take up with the producers of the live-action/ animated stuff.
I don’t have a hand in either of those, but I understand them not wanting negative press from religious pedants.

184

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

That article completely ignores the greater mythology Kirby built around the Norse gods. For gods from different religions to co-exist in the MU, it was a necessary step. All deities are given credit by their worshippers for creating life, in the words of Connor Mcleod: “there can only be one”.

There is no practical way to give Thor his full due as a god without putting the Asgardians at the top of the religious tree (that would mean that Asgardians created life on Earth), and the fans who feel hard done by would be shit out of luck as the writers would have run out of ways to use him years ago. They could create worthy foes for an ‘unbeatable’ Thor, but he is still going to lose sometimes, and if he is the only hero powerful enough to battle these enemies, then we may as well just get rid of The Avengers altogether. Why would Thor need them?

Besides that, Marvel Thor is no more the Thor worshipped by vikings than the Perseus from Wrath of the Titans is the same hero spoken of by the ancient Greeks. I really don’t see what the big deal is; it’s not as if Pagan religious groups are up in arms over the ‘inaccuracies’ in the movie and comic books…

[/quote]

Huh, sorry for the reply, but… I just want Thor to keep his title of God of Thunder. Calling him a Demi God or Prince of Thunder is a just a cop out in my book.

I read your post entirely, I just can’t find anything to argue against.
[/quote]

Wol, that’s something you’ll have to take up with the producers of the live-action/ animated stuff.
I don’t have a hand in either of those, but I understand them not wanting negative press from religious pedants. [/quote]

Makes me want to start drinking again.

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Just gotta say out of all the superhero Characters ‘Loki’ is the fucken coolest one.

186

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

That article completely ignores the greater mythology Kirby built around the Norse gods. For gods from different religions to co-exist in the MU, it was a necessary step. All deities are given credit by their worshippers for creating life, in the words of Connor Mcleod: “there can only be one”.

There is no practical way to give Thor his full due as a god without putting the Asgardians at the top of the religious tree (that would mean that Asgardians created life on Earth), and the fans who feel hard done by would be shit out of luck as the writers would have run out of ways to use him years ago. They could create worthy foes for an ‘unbeatable’ Thor, but he is still going to lose sometimes, and if he is the only hero powerful enough to battle these enemies, then we may as well just get rid of The Avengers altogether. Why would Thor need them?

Besides that, Marvel Thor is no more the Thor worshipped by vikings than the Perseus from Wrath of the Titans is the same hero spoken of by the ancient Greeks. I really don’t see what the big deal is; it’s not as if Pagan religious groups are up in arms over the ‘inaccuracies’ in the movie and comic books…

[/quote]

Huh, sorry for the reply, but… I just want Thor to keep his title of God of Thunder. Calling him a Demi God or Prince of Thunder is a just a cop out in my book.

I read your post entirely, I just can’t find anything to argue against.
[/quote]

Wol, that’s something you’ll have to take up with the producers of the live-action/ animated stuff.
I don’t have a hand in either of those, but I understand them not wanting negative press from religious pedants. [/quote]

Makes me want to start drinking again.
[/quote]

If it’s any consolation, the latest TV spots indicate that Cap will be leader:

187


talking about comic books vikings. I wish someone made a live action movie based on Thorgal.

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[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

That article completely ignores the greater mythology Kirby built around the Norse gods. For gods from different religions to co-exist in the MU, it was a necessary step. All deities are given credit by their worshippers for creating life, in the words of Connor Mcleod: “there can only be one”.

There is no practical way to give Thor his full due as a god without putting the Asgardians at the top of the religious tree (that would mean that Asgardians created life on Earth), and the fans who feel hard done by would be shit out of luck as the writers would have run out of ways to use him years ago. They could create worthy foes for an ‘unbeatable’ Thor, but he is still going to lose sometimes, and if he is the only hero powerful enough to battle these enemies, then we may as well just get rid of The Avengers altogether. Why would Thor need them?

Besides that, Marvel Thor is no more the Thor worshipped by vikings than the Perseus from Wrath of the Titans is the same hero spoken of by the ancient Greeks. I really don’t see what the big deal is; it’s not as if Pagan religious groups are up in arms over the ‘inaccuracies’ in the movie and comic books…

[/quote]

Not entirely true. DC does this with the Greek Gods. They all pretty much maintain their power levels as described in classic mythology, but above them is an oft alluded to (but as far as I know never named) true or supreme being and creator of all that is very much in line with God as seen in the many monotheistic religions. It allows DC to have their fun with the Greek gods without creating a religious debate or ostracizing their fan base.

I think Marvel de-powers their “Gods” because their is so much direct contact with them. Mortals can challenge them in physical confrontations and wage war in the god’s own realms. They even had Ares as a construction worker to provide for his child. DC on the other hand keeps their “Gods” powered up in line with classic mythology. DC’s Greek gods seem to walk around at the same level as was described in that article Wol posted. In the old DC universe we never really saw a whole lot of direct contact. The gods maintained supporting roles by giving advice or enchanted artifacts much like they did in the old myths. We saw a lot of this when DC was retconning some of Cassie Sandsmark’s history. In one of the few direct altercations with DC’s gods Wonder Woman ended up killing Ares. Even after his supposed death Ares would pop up gloating about how he is still manipulating the world. I don’t believe we saw anything like that from Marvel’s Ares after his death.

In the new 52 we’ve seen an injured Hermes, and more recently Strife decided to flex her muscle a bit. The Amazons are pretty much at a loss to do anything about Strife’s presence. All those dead bodies was her having a little fun.

189

[quote]Bujo wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

For Roybot and Thor fans.[/quote]

That article completely ignores the greater mythology Kirby built around the Norse gods. For gods from different religions to co-exist in the MU, it was a necessary step. All deities are given credit by their worshippers for creating life, in the words of Connor Mcleod: “there can only be one”.

There is no practical way to give Thor his full due as a god without putting the Asgardians at the top of the religious tree (that would mean that Asgardians created life on Earth), and the fans who feel hard done by would be shit out of luck as the writers would have run out of ways to use him years ago. They could create worthy foes for an ‘unbeatable’ Thor, but he is still going to lose sometimes, and if he is the only hero powerful enough to battle these enemies, then we may as well just get rid of The Avengers altogether. Why would Thor need them?

Besides that, Marvel Thor is no more the Thor worshipped by vikings than the Perseus from Wrath of the Titans is the same hero spoken of by the ancient Greeks. I really don’t see what the big deal is; it’s not as if Pagan religious groups are up in arms over the ‘inaccuracies’ in the movie and comic books…

[/quote]

Not entirely true. DC does this with the Greek Gods. They all pretty much maintain their power levels as described in classic mythology, but above them is an oft alluded to (but as far as I know never named) true or supreme being and creator of all that is very much in line with God as seen in the many monotheistic religions. It allows DC to have their fun with the Greek gods without creating a religious debate or ostracizing their fan base.

I think Marvel de-powers their “Gods” because their is so much direct contact with them. Mortals can challenge them in physical confrontations and wage war in the god’s own realms. They even had Ares as a construction worker to provide for his child. DC on the other hand keeps their “Gods” powered up in line with classic mythology. DC’s Greek gods seem to walk around at the same level as was described in that article Wol posted. In the old DC universe we never really saw a whole lot of direct contact. The gods maintained supporting roles by giving advice or enchanted artifacts much like they did in the old myths. We saw a lot of this when DC was retconning some of Cassie Sandsmark’s history. In one of the few direct altercations with DC’s gods Wonder Woman ended up killing Ares. Even after his supposed death Ares would pop up gloating about how he is still manipulating the world. I don’t believe we saw anything like that from Marvel’s Ares after his death.

In the new 52 we’ve seen an injured Hermes, and more recently Strife decided to flex her muscle a bit. The Amazons are pretty much at a loss to do anything about Strife’s presence. All those dead bodies was her having a little fun.
[/quote]

Yeah, but I’ve been talking strictly about Marvel’s treatment of gods up 'til now, specifically how their perceived godhood is affected by Kirby’s Eternal’s saga. It doesn’t really apply to DC, which is why Marvel’s line up of Gods seem less god-like compared to their DC counterparts. I agree with what you said regarding DC gods and the implied existence of a supreme creator, but that’s also present in the MU - just tackled differently (again mostly done through the Eternals saga in 616 , but approached from a different angle again in Ultimates). Both Marvel and DC come back to the old Highlander maxim at some stage.

Regarding what I said about Thor/ Perseus, most classic mythologies are self-contained, so the more they are influenced by characters from outside their mythology, the less ‘classic’ they become.

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For Wol

191

It’s crazy how this weird topic has come up in 2 threads on here now.

According to the Marvel Encyclopedia, Asgardians are not “gods” but rather just god-like. As opposed to the Olympians, who ARE considered gods. I’m not sure exactly what Marvel’s definition of a god is, but it seems to me like it has a lot to do with whether or not they are immortal (or in other words, can’t die due to getting old, or just can’t get old). Of course there are some characters, like the Eternals, who aren’t considered gods, but are immortal. I guess since they weren’t originally immortal, that may be why. Maybe it’s if you’re born an immortal?

They specifically say that the people of Asgard exist in another dimension and have extra-long lifespans among other attributes that got them labeled as gods early on.

The Marvel universe has a hierarchy for higher-powered beings. The One Above All is the most powerful (I think most would see this character as the equivalent of God), next down is the Living Tribunal, next after that is the 5 sentient beings: Galactus, Eternity, Infinity, Death, and Oblivion. After this, I believe the next level down is the Celestials and then after that is subject to debate, but normal “gods” like the Olympians I think are the next step or possibly 2 steps down from the Celestials. This is my understanding of how the Marvel Universe explains their higher-powered beings. It isn’t until you get down to the Celestials that you have any who are “good” or “bad”, they’re more just beings that are necessary for the universe to retain balance.

I realize most people don’t think highly of wikipedia, but for comics, it actually is a great resource to read up on stuff (and most of the articles do have citations).

Wol, saying Thor isn’t a god is not bashing him. It’s just being a geek about properly labeling him. He’s still awesome. Even if he isn’t quite as strong as Hulk CAN get, he’s still easily the most powerful avenger simply because of the other abilities he has. Flight, summoning lightning and electricity, etc. Everything put together makes him the most powerful Avenger by far. Only Hulk would be able to fight him out of the group, the rest of them would just be toyed with. Hell, only Hulk would even be able to hurt him, the others simply aren’t strong or powerful enough to actually hurt Thor, let alone take him on in a fight. This is the Avengers from the movie and tv show, that is.

Sorry for the long post…

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Even on the cartoon, they explained our universe as being part of a tree with nine worlds inside it. The dimension Asgard resides allows them to have those abilities, but it does not make them divine…because they didn’t create the tree.

193

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Even on the cartoon, they explained our universe as being part of a tree with nine worlds inside it. The dimension Asgard resides allows them to have those abilities, but it does not make them divine…because they didn’t create the tree.[/quote]

That was the genius of Jack Kirby who incorporated Norse Myth into his characters and expanded on it

194

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]kevinm1 wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:
Latest TV spot shows Stark doesn’t need ball-buster armor to trash talk Loki. The aliens also finally get their close up with the first real view of what they look like:

Hulk decides the E.Ts are too ugly, and performs a delicate facial reconstruction procedure on two of them…using the side of a building…[/quote]

Sheninigans!!! Thor is a god not a demigod a demigod is a being who has one parent who is a god and the other a human Hercules is a demigod, Achilles is a demigod, Odin, Thor, and Zeus are gods[/quote]

You’re technically correct, but I know of two reasons why Thor would be demoted to a demi-god, other than a needless depowering:

  1. The producers don’t want Thor stealing the thunder of the #1 God and are trying to avoid any Bible-thumping backlash. People can get very sensitive about that kind of thing in movies…

  2. Joss Whedon has promised references to the comics that newcomers will miss, but that dedicated readers will pick up on: Stark has been known to challenge divine beings in the comics and rejected Thor as a god in Ultimates. Perhaps this is one of those references?

Even though the Thor movie doesn’t draw heavily on Ultimate Thor, it does re-work the backstory enough to cast doubt on whether Thor is truly a god or a being who has come to be known as one over millennia. It’s still consistent with classic Thor but edges more towards Arthur C. Clarke tinted sci-fi. I wrote
quite a lot about it in the Comic Chracter Battles thread:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/comic_character_battles?id=5071916&pageNo=3

The idea that Thor is ‘something else’ was proposed by Kirby himself and is far more interesting (at least to me) than a blanket explanation of “Thor is a god - he can beat everyone”. Kirby brings a modern mythology to bear on an ancient myth.[/quote]

He can beat everyone…except the hulk.[/quote]

Disagree, sir. Should be a good movie, though.[/quote]

I remember reading many comic books back in the day, though thor always gave the hulk a good fight, the hulk always won.[/quote]

Their fights usually end in a draw. But if both used their full range of abilities and tried to kill one another, Thor would win.[/quote]

No. No.

This is believed to be true because thor is a god. Hulk is a human with extra abilities.

The thing with Hulk is he was changed. At the very atomic level he was changed. His power does not come from anger. Anger is only the trigger. Hulk becomes stronger when he needs or wants to be stronger. Think about that he does not need the sun or any other power source but his own will to become
stronger. And since he was changed on the atomic level his power may have no bounds.

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New cover to Muscle and Fitness

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Loki: “That was the plan”…

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For fuck’s sake!

qh

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For fuck’s sake!

Hulk vs Thor. Hulk’s saving grace is his strength and regeneration. He has untapped potential as far strength. Like Hulk, Thor can lift an excess of 100 tons. You can’t calculate both their strength. Thor always holds back and Hulk is always becoming strongerr. Thor has lifted the world with midgard serpent wrapped around it. And when he fights powerhouses like Juggernaut and Hulk, he’s willing to fight them hand to hand. Even then, he’s holding back.

I’ll let Hulk win in the strength battle, but its still close. But fighting skill, speed, intelligent, and powers goes to Thor in a landslide.

Fuck that lame science experiment, the God of Thunder is the truth.

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[quote]TDub301 wrote:
It’s crazy how this weird topic has come up in 2 threads on here now.

According to the Marvel Encyclopedia, Asgardians are not “gods” but rather just god-like. As opposed to the Olympians, who ARE considered gods. I’m not sure exactly what Marvel’s definition of a god is, but it seems to me like it has a lot to do with whether or not they are immortal (or in other words, can’t die due to getting old, or just can’t get old). Of course there are some characters, like the Eternals, who aren’t considered gods, but are immortal. I guess since they weren’t originally immortal, that may be why. Maybe it’s if you’re born an immortal?

They specifically say that the people of Asgard exist in another dimension and have extra-long lifespans among other attributes that got them labeled as gods early on.

The Marvel universe has a hierarchy for higher-powered beings. The One Above All is the most powerful (I think most would see this character as the equivalent of God), next down is the Living Tribunal, next after that is the 5 sentient beings: Galactus, Eternity, Infinity, Death, and Oblivion. After this, I believe the next level down is the Celestials and then after that is subject to debate, but normal “gods” like the Olympians I think are the next step or possibly 2 steps down from the Celestials. This is my understanding of how the Marvel Universe explains their higher-powered beings. It isn’t until you get down to the Celestials that you have any who are “good” or “bad”, they’re more just beings that are necessary for the universe to retain balance.

I realize most people don’t think highly of wikipedia, but for comics, it actually is a great resource to read up on stuff (and most of the articles do have citations).

Wol, saying Thor isn’t a god is not bashing him. It’s just being a geek about properly labeling him. He’s still awesome. Even if he isn’t quite as strong as Hulk CAN get, he’s still easily the most powerful avenger simply because of the other abilities he has. Flight, summoning lightning and electricity, etc. Everything put together makes him the most powerful Avenger by far. Only Hulk would be able to fight him out of the group, the rest of them would just be toyed with. Hell, only Hulk would even be able to hurt him, the others simply aren’t strong or powerful enough to actually hurt Thor, let alone take him on in a fight. This is the Avengers from the movie and tv show, that is.

Sorry for the long post…[/quote]

I just know they’re gonna fuck Thor over in the movie. They’ll depower him, make it the Hulk and Iron Man show, and then Hawkeye sales will go up and Thor sales will plummet.

I have an old comic where Thor said he was worshipped by Vikings as a God, but he himself was not a Viking. I consider Thor a God, not some lame ass alien from another world Superman.

I’m taking this to my grave. Thor: God of Thunder. Fuck the world.n Bastards fucked up my vacaation.

200

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:
It’s crazy how this weird topic has come up in 2 threads on here now.

According to the Marvel Encyclopedia, Asgardians are not “gods” but rather just god-like. As opposed to the Olympians, who ARE considered gods. I’m not sure exactly what Marvel’s definition of a god is, but it seems to me like it has a lot to do with whether or not they are immortal (or in other words, can’t die due to getting old, or just can’t get old). Of course there are some characters, like the Eternals, who aren’t considered gods, but are immortal. I guess since they weren’t originally immortal, that may be why. Maybe it’s if you’re born an immortal?

They specifically say that the people of Asgard exist in another dimension and have extra-long lifespans among other attributes that got them labeled as gods early on.

The Marvel universe has a hierarchy for higher-powered beings. The One Above All is the most powerful (I think most would see this character as the equivalent of God), next down is the Living Tribunal, next after that is the 5 sentient beings: Galactus, Eternity, Infinity, Death, and Oblivion. After this, I believe the next level down is the Celestials and then after that is subject to debate, but normal “gods” like the Olympians I think are the next step or possibly 2 steps down from the Celestials. This is my understanding of how the Marvel Universe explains their higher-powered beings. It isn’t until you get down to
the Celestials that you have any who are “good” or “bad”, they’re more just beings that are necessary for the universe to retain balance.

I realize most people don’t think highly of wikipedia, but for comics, it actually is a great resource to read up on stuff (and most of the articles do have citations).

Wol, saying Thor isn’t a god is not bashing him. It’s just being a geek about properly labeling him. He’s still awesome. Even if he isn’t quite as strong as Hulk CAN get, he’s still easily the most powerful avenger simply because of the other abilities he has. Flight, summoning lightning and electricity, etc. Everything put together makes him the most powerful Avenger by far. Only Hulk would be able to fight him out of the group, the rest of them would just be toyed with.
Hell, only Hulk would even be able to hurt him, the others simply aren’t strong or powerful enough to actually hurt Thor, let alone take him on in a fight. This is the Avengers from the movie and tv show, that is.

Sorry for the long post…[/quote]

I just know they’re gonna fuck Thor over in the movie. They’ll depower him, make it the Hulk and Iron Man show, and then Hawkeye sales will go up and
Thor sales will plummet.

I have an old comic where Thor said he was worshipped by Vikings as a God, but he himself was not a Viking. I consider Thor a God, not some lame ass alien from another world Superman.

I’m taking this to my grave. Thor: God of Thunder. Fuck the world.n Bastards fucked up my vacaation.[/quote]

I think they will depower everyone. I’m of the mind of Stan Lee. I’m always happy with the things they got right.