Woke at 225.3 lbs, looking the same as yesterday. No bloat. I think that bloat was a build up salt from a few days of saltier food that has now left my system.
1 Like
Your deload or off days are better than my normal days. Nice work man. Super impressive.
That’s not a deload day @losthog 
It’s assistance day. I deloaded last week. I already feel beat to shit, so everything is going according to plan. Three more weeks, a deload and then peaking.
2 Likes
Can’t wait to see how insane you’ll be in the peaking phase.
1 Like
Fixed it for you @mortdk
4 Likes
Made me laugh right there mate 
1 Like
. I’m beginning to feel a bit beat up. I can’t imagine how you are doing it
1 Like
Woke at 226.4 lbs, looking the same as yesterday with a little lower ab bloating (salt, probably).
@losthog I do less volume than you do, so there’s that. The loads are also pretty precisely set to match the volume. So there’s that too. Lastly, I’m not even remotely trying to lose fat - I’m just trying to gain muscle without too much fat. So I eat accordingly. That’s a huge factor.
3 Likes
I get you there Mark, I have been eating a bit under the last couple of days and today I felt like i was pulling a really heavy shitload of iron.
Maybe if I’ve eaten a bit more then it would not have been so hard. Who knows.
It definitely has an impact. I can also guarantee that you and Hog are working way closer to your maxes than I have since I signed on with Greg. At most I’ll go to around 80 per cent of my max, and rarely at that. Most of the time we work around 50-70 per cent.
That’s where even 5/3/1 falls down: sure, you have a training max, but it’s up to you to set it and there are various ways to determine it. So it isn’t consistent, which is why we see so many people with TMs set top high. Then you add to that every week three going to 95 per cent of your TM, usually for five or more reps. If your TM isn’t perfectly set, that’s too often for too many reps. To make things worse, you have joker sets, which honestly have absolutely no place in training because all they’ll do is increase your fatigue burden for no good reason.
I’m pretty sure this is why Jim released Forever, to try and counter all that.
Don’t me wrong, I’m not dumping on 5/3/1. It’s a cut above most programs and if you’re trying to achieve multiple things at once it’s probably about as good a setup as you’ll find. It just still has some fairly prominent flaws in terms of fatigue management.
3 Likes
Okay, curious because you ran it for a while, and you know, I’m just always curious.
I’ve gotten the idea that 5/3/1 is flexible AF. When you start with low TM’s, you can go 5’s Pro and FSL if you want. And then, on your fifth cycle, when the shit gets heavy, you can just do the AMRAP and hit a few jokers and call it good.
Then, you reset, start over on 5’s Pro, add in FSL and build again.
Am I wrong in my understanding?
I totally get that what you are doing is different, probably considered advanced training as opposed to intermediate.
But, for intermediates, what’s your idea for the best way to program 5/3/1?
@The_Myth I think the main thing that causes issues is that 5/3/1 is open ended. Then it also works on this idea that progress is linear over the long term without looking at what causes progress. Your understanding seems right on the money to me.
So you have a system where you have all these ways of accumulating fatigue - which is great - but which insists on adding load to your main lifts every cycle, while also adding load to each main and supplemental lift in the same manner every week. Sure, it has deloads every fourth or seventh week but other than the OG, the deloads aren’t really deloads. Add to that the idea of joker sets, which frankly don’t seem to have any place in training other than to detail progress.
I know, there are all these add-ons and caveats about when to reset, how to set your TM, when to use jokers, etc. Forever seems to address quite a few of these issues, but it still leaves so much open to user interpretation that it’s kind of set up to fail due to user error. Most of the time it seems like whenever you find someone who uses 5/3/1 successfully over the long term, they’ve tweaked and modified it so much apart from the progression it barely resembles 5/3/1. So, yeah, it’s adaptable AF - because it has to be modified to work for more than a few cycles.
When you look at something like 5th Set (which is basically what Greg uses), Base Building and even Juggernaut what stands out is that the focus isn’t at all on progressively adding weight from week to week or cycle to cycle, but on getting as much out of one load as possible for as long as possible and simply accumulating fatigue, recovering slightly and repeating until you actually peak. Also, there tends to be a variation in how each lift is treated either overall or by week, so that you aren’t going heavier on more than one lift in a week. There is also a lot more focus on supplemental and assistance work, which 5/3/1 seems to dismiss as necessary but not worth much thought beyond making sure to do some.
I think it boils down to 5/3/1 not doing a great job of managing fatigue and overlooking some pretty important elements that drive progress. Again, I’m not bashing it. For someone who wants to achieve a bunch of different things somewhat successfully it’s fine, it could just be much, much better. For instance, have one rule for setting a TM, and mandate twice yearly peaking and testing - doesn’t matter what lift, just peak and test them. Then base your next TM on your test weights. That way you know how you’re progressing and learn how to peak; cycle the load for each lift every week so you have different intensities each day; give options for set/rep ranges for each day; actually go into detail about supplemental exercises and assistance work.
Hell, the OG book did some of this which is why I keep saying it’s the best one. Periodisation Bible is a good guide for assistance and there are bits in Beyond that talk about supplemental work a little. Yet, there isn’t any one of books that really sets out what you need to do to get stronger and manage your fatigue. Not in so many words. It just says to deload and slowly add weight. Base Building does a much better job. It also only really provides a framework to use, while 5/3/1 provides a very set structure than gets slightly changed depending on the template.
I think it is set out as it is because Jim isn’t stupid. He knows how to train as well as most coaches out there, but he also knows his market and is no fool. There’s nothing cool or hard core about using as little weight as possible to generate fatigue, recover a bit and keep going until you decide to peak. It’s boring, it’s tiring and it’s unpleasant. It just happens to work very well.
The way Greg trains us is pretty simple once you look at it next to Prilepin’s chart:
Main lift - a bunch of reps in the set/rep and total volume recommendations for the load, different for each lift per day and rotating weekly
Supplemental - one to three exercises, all lighter than the main lift and changing weekly
Assistance - anywhere from two to six exercises, rotating weekly either in respect of exercise or sets/reps
It wouldn’t have been out of the realms of the possible for Jim to set things out a little bit like that.
6 Likes
Is there any good 5th Set articles I can read up on? I’m not very acquainted with it. Not just at Mark, anyone who has a good reference would be appreciated.
1 Like
This is going to be a bit defensive, mostly because I like Jims work… On the other hand I’ve been using it solely for a year now and it has worked like a charm on my deadlift and my squat
BUT, and it is a big BUT, my squat started out with the TM as my bench and Deadlift wasn’t much bigger.
Bench and press has moved a little bit, but not much.
I really like the OG very much, going for a obscure rep pr with a submax weight. Jim often says that doing less than 5 reps on the last week is too little, that is the heaviest week, and doing 5 reps is around 80%. which means the two week prior were lower.
After this he offered SSL and FSL for one or multiple sets, because he could see that a lot of intermediate or beginner lifters needed a bit more volume.
THEN he said do assistance to help you fix weak spots or help drive the main lift.
As you know I’m straying away from the path, and I’m going to try something a bit different.
It’s a bit familiar with training maximally, but it’s with a variation lift followed by dynamic work with the opposite comp lift.
So I’m not totally satisfied with Jims work, but I like it a lot. It’s simple and it should work, but it doesn’t really for me, maybe I’m to old to get stronger, who knows, I refuse to being to old to get stronger.
Enough ranting in here, should I at some point want to try out Gregs work, how much does that cost? and it’s online coaching right?
3 Likes
@Irishman92 if I could I would. I’ve looked and there don’t seem to be any. Swede certainly hasn’t put any out that I know of, and he’s the creator. Greg hasn’t either and as far as I know they’re the only two using it, and I think even Greg only uses elements.
@mortdk you nailed it:
That’s what I was getting at. I’ve been saying for a while the OG is still the best of the bunch.
Greg isn’t pricey: 20 USD per month. It’s online programming more than anything. We have a private group on facebook where we post videos, Greg pinned some technique videos and that’s pretty much it. If you post a video either Greg OR the more experienced guys will weigh in if there’s an issue. Definitely value for the money.
1 Like
That is not expensive at all. I’ve googled Greg and he is the author or co author of the juggernaut method, is it part of that you are using?
EDIT: Where did you sign up for the program Facebook?
@mortdk he used to write for the Juggernaut website, but I’m almost certain he’s got nothing to do with the method. When he was writing for JTS I think he was using Cube as a program. Pretty sure he mentioned it.
What we use is 5th Set, as far as I can tell Swede and Greg came up with it together - the only difference is that because we all signed up at different times there aren’t individual microcycles or mesocycles. We just slot in wherever we signed up, deload every fifth week and peak according to when our meets are. I’m guessing that Greg may well implement it slightly differently to Swede, but not by much at that.
Add Greg on facebook. The program you get from the TrainHeroic marketplace. There’s an app you can download.
1 Like
Yep, this is my biggest (and only) problem with OG 5/3/1 honestly. My rep records went up pretty significantly, but there was a big drop-off once I got around 82-85% of my max. Example: My record with 240 before 5/3/1 was 3 reps, but after about 3 months on 5/3/1 I got 240x11. Almost 4x more reps than before, but my 1rm hardly budged. I know Jim’s whole thing is that you want to walk out of the gym stronger than you were when you walked in, but doing that for several months straight and then having very little to show for it during testing is a little disheartening.
That being said, it worked wonders for my squat. I added 90lbs to my squat max in a little over 6 months which is ridiculous. Jim’s stuff works like you said, but for some reason it takes a lot longer with bench than it does with squats. I scrapped the deadlifts because doing an AMRAP with deadlifts once or twice a week was wrecking me lol so I’m not sure how well OG works for deads
2 Likes
@lava2007 5/3/1 has a pretty terrible reputation for bench, and it seems to be mostly deserved. Jim’s super-simple approach just doesn’t work well for bench in most cases. You’ll generally need to bench twice a week, or at least three times a fortnight and have a very good supplemental and assistance setup. This is something 5/3/1 doesn’t offer for bench unless you scrap press for a second bench day. Then it works ok.
Similar deal for deads (although not sure why you’d do an AMRAP twice a week), although in the opposite direction. There’s almost too much heavy volume, and again not enough focus on supplemental and assistance work.
It’s fine as a program to get you to a point where sometime down the line you’re a bit stronger overall than before and during which you get to set rep PRs. If you want to drive specific lifts there are better ways.
5 Likes