[quote]buffballswell wrote:
In my humble opinion marijuana should be legal. Your thoughts please.[/quote]
I am just confused as to why the hell most of this guy’s posts are these kinds of things. “I think X. Discuss.” and then you never hear from him again. It’s like that “American Women Suck” thread of his.
Is that somehow interesting to you, buff??? Do you actually have any ideas beyond that first little crap-stirrer you like to toss out?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Also, where do you want your kids going to buy their weed?
If they are kids, they shouldn’t be buying weed. What part are you missing? Why should grown men and women have to be treated like kids just because kids exist?[/quote]
I think the point is that most of the illegal sale of weed is to people under the age of 18, and yet people are saying that legalizing the sale will eliminate or reduce the illegal market. Maybe I’m wrong. Where I grew up, probably 2/3 of the kids 15-21 used, and probably only 20-25% of the adults age 25+, so legalizing it should have little negative affect on the illegal sale (and probably increase it because of the decriminalization of possession and the general availability.
And I wanted to show that this isn’t an issue as simple as “legalize it and forget about it.” I am showing that we would create a half dozen other little issues to regulate.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Before you jump on this bandwagon, research what happened to China with opium addiction in the early 1800’s. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. [/quote]
Loosely related, opium and marijuana are extremely different substances. There are no credible studies nor anecdotal evidence that marijuana is physiologically addictive. You can’t compare the two.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Professor X wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Also, where do you want your kids going to buy their weed?
If they are kids, they shouldn’t be buying weed. What part are you missing? Why should grown men and women have to be treated like kids just because kids exist?
I think the point is that most of the illegal sale of weed is to people under the age of 18, and yet people are saying that legalizing the sale will eliminate or reduce the illegal market. Maybe I’m wrong. Where I grew up, probably 2/3 of the kids 15-21 used, and probably only 20-25% of the adults age 25+, so legalizing it should have little negative affect on the illegal sale (and probably increase it because of the decriminalization of possession and the general availability.
And I wanted to show that this isn’t an issue as simple as “legalize it and forget about it.” I am showing that we would create a half dozen other little issues to regulate.
[/quote]
legalizaton would be a nice chewy bone for overly zealous government and social gatekeepers to occupy themselves with. take the heat off of supplements !
that said it’s also a bad idea 'cause stuff like heady’s quality grooming and organic outdoor grown sativa would dissappear in favor of frickn flavorless monolithic monsanto “wal-weed”.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Before you jump on this bandwagon, research what happened to China with opium addiction in the early 1800’s. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Loosely related, opium and marijuana are extremely different substances. There are no credible studies nor anecdotal evidence that marijuana is physiologically addictive. You can’t compare the two.
[/quote]
There are actually studies that prove weed is NOT physiologically addictive.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I think the point is that most of the illegal sale of weed is to people under the age of 18, and yet people are saying that legalizing the sale will eliminate or reduce the illegal market.
[/quote]
The illegal market, the smuggling, the black market sale, the late night corner buy from a guy in his 30’s on his 3 speed WILL decrease, if not disappear, if it is legalized. There is no more need for the black ops if it is legal. Likewise, there is no such thing as a need for “moonshine” and bath tub distillaries now that alcohol is legal. The amount of money being spent on a failed drug war could be used for other more important resources. You just said yourself how easy it was to get in your neighborhood. Why would you then think we still need to lose millions of dollars trying to stop it every year?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Before you jump on this bandwagon, research what happened to China with opium addiction in the early 1800’s. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Loosely related, opium and marijuana are extremely different substances. There are no credible studies nor anecdotal evidence that marijuana is physiologically addictive. You can’t compare the two.
There are actually studies that prove weed is NOT physiologically addictive.[/quote]
Yes!
Man, you guys should really watch Reefer Madness. No way I want the Devil Weed legalized. Not to mention that you’re supporting Osama everytime you light one up. Why do you pot smokers hate America?
Aside from the fact that having a cigarette and a shot of vodka is arguably more harmful than getting high, I dont think the dangers of drug use should even be the main focus of this debate. When did it become the federal governments job to tell me what I, as an adult, can and cannot take into my body? Its ridiculous when you really think about it…absolutely ridiculous.
Not to mention the fact that many of our drug laws have their origin in racist propoganda (research it if you dont believe me) federal drug laws are clearly unconstitutional (why do you think we needed a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol?). If individual states want to regulate consumption, as they already do, they have every legal right to do so but the federal gov’t needs to be stop waisting our money on something it was never ment to control.
MJ’s addictive properties are documented to be equal in intensity to Caffeine.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
MJ’s addictive properties are documented to be equal in intensity to Caffeine.[/quote]
There are multiple components to addiction. There is reward, craving, and withdrawal. Caffeine has minimal effects on the reward system which is often meditaed through dopamine and/or serotonin receptors. But the withdrawal symptoms of caffeine (headaches, etc…) can be moderately intense. There is more of a reward response to marijuana but withdrawal symptoms, a physiological response, and cravings are extremely less pronounced than caffeine and for all intents and purposes, nonexistent.
I’m sure that it could be explained better and more succinctly, but what I said is basically the case.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
MJ’s addictive properties are documented to be equal in intensity to Caffeine.[/quote]
Even if that were true (and it may very well be)whats your point? Do you need or want the federal government telling you what you cant put in your body, regardless of the danger? I sure as hell dont…
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
There are multiple components to addiction. There is reward, craving, and withdrawal.[/quote]
Unn ok, so what? It’s basic stuff everyone knows, point?
Ohh really, i beg to differ. When you say often regulated by dopamine receptors and seretonin receptors is that to say sometimes it’s not? As in not always, just often? That’s BS. The degree or intensity of response you will vary greatly from individual to individual to the point of mild euphoria in some caffeine partakers, followed by a high degree of irritability after the effects wear off.
They can be moderately intense, but why? Neurotransmitter depletion in some individuals and perhaps receptor site blunting due to chronic stimulation? Why not, why else would there be virtually no percieved reward from caffine but such potentially pronounced withdrawals? See what I’m getting at here? Caffeine does have a powerfull reward resonse, MJ is the same way.
My point here was that we can all relate (even non smokers) to caffeine and how relatively harmless it is in our daily lives, anyone can stop it anytime and have a headache for a few days and be just fine. MJ is the same way. I smoked some of the highest grade MJ daily for weeks, even months. Close to 20% thc was very available to me. Some stuff right from Amdam not some domestic grower harvesting inferior genetics. Real White widow, Ice, Jack Horror etc… Weed so strong it made out like an LSD trip, and Indicas so strong i had cauch sp? lock to the point of almost freaking out. The point? I stopped for several weeks at a time at a drp of a hat. What were my withdrawal symptoms? Well, day one had me craving psychologically most likely due to a fomation of a simple habit. Day 2 all gone and it’s like a never smoked before. So i agree with European reserchers that compare it to caffeine in terms of withdrawal intensity.
Now there’s a reason i don’t like to post on just about any forums. Seems that every post made by anyone has another poster jump in and play a pissing match of intelligence with a one up.
Look, your explanation of addiction is very well understood to me, your mental masturbation did nothing for the thread. Caffeine is just as rewarding as anything out there to the right individual, because in the end it’s all about the particular individual. So in essence MJ has been most closely linked to Caffeine in terms of addictive properties.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Gregus wrote:
MJ’s addictive properties are documented to be equal in intensity to Caffeine.
Even if that were true (and it may very well be)whats your point? Do you need or want the federal government telling you what you cant put in your body, regardless of the danger? I sure as hell dont…[/quote]
It is true. You don’t have to get a hostile tone with me here. I posted this to educate the non users of this wonderfull plant, as most of the non smokers don’t differentiate it form hard drugs that addict you to the point of death. It’s meant to calm people down. And my post within itself serves as a reason why the government should not take MJ from us and stop spreading lies about it. Mj never hurt anyone and never destroyed anyone’s life, the govenment did a fine job of that with mindless prsecution of peacefull smokers and of invading people’s homes for growing a fucking naturally occuring plant that can be consumed with NO chemicall alteration. just like an apple from a tree, you pick the bud and smoke it, simple 100% nature at it’s finest.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
There are multiple components to addiction. There is reward, craving, and withdrawal.
Unn ok, so what? It’s basic stuff everyone knows, point?
Caffeine has minimal effects on the reward system which is often meditaed through dopamine and/or serotonin receptors.
Ohh really, i beg to differ. When you say often regulated by dopamine receptors and seretonin receptors is that to say sometimes it’s not? As in not always, just often? That’s BS. The degree or intensity of response you will vary greatly from individual to individual to the point of mild euphoria in some caffeine partakers, followed by a high degree of irritability after the effects wear off.
But the withdrawal symptoms of caffeine (headaches, etc…) can be moderately intense. There is more of a reward response to marijuana but withdrawal symptoms, a physiological response, and cravings are extremely less pronounced than caffeine and for all intents and purposes, nonexistent.
They can be moderately intense, but why? Neurotransmitter depletion in some individuals and perhaps receptor site blunting due to chronic stimulation? Why not, why else would there be virtually no percieved reward from caffine but such potentially pronounced withdrawals? See what I’m getting at here? Caffeine does have a powerfull reward resonse, MJ is the same way.
My point here was that we can all relate (even non smokers) to caffeine and how relatively harmless it is in our daily lives, anyone can stop it anytime and have a headache for a few days and be just fine. MJ is the same way. I smoked some of the highest grade MJ daily for weeks, even months. Close to 20% thc was very available to me. Some stuff right from Amdam not some domestic grower harvesting inferior genetics. Real White widow, Ice, Jack Horror etc… Weed so strong it made out like an LSD trip, and Indicas so strong i had cauch sp? lock to the point of almost freaking out. The point? I stopped for several weeks at a time at a drp of a hat. What were my withdrawal symptoms? Well, day one had me craving psychologically most likely due to a fomation of a simple habit. Day 2 all gone and it’s like a never smoked before. So i agree with European reserchers that compare it to caffeine in terms of withdrawal intensity.
Now there’s a reason i don’t like to post on just about any forums. Seems that every post made by anyone has another poster jump in and play a pissing match of intelligence with a one up.
Look, your explanation of addiction is very well understood to me, your mental masturbation did nothing for the thread. Caffeine is just as rewarding as anything out there to the right individual, because in the end it’s all about the particular individual. So in essence MJ has been most closely linked to Caffeine in terms of addictive properties.
[/quote]
I especially like where you exasperate the point of posts one upping each other and turning into a pissing match of intelligence–yet your whole post is a pissing match with js.
Nice job. You’re not only a doper, you’re a doper with the best dope. How much more impressed could I possibly be. Now I know why you responded as such with the Minnesota Viking who got caught with the wizzinator.
It should be legalized, but right now it’s not. If I broke all the rules and laws I didn’t care for then what the hell would be the sense in having any?
[quote]Floortom wrote:
Man, you guys should really watch Reefer Madness. No way I want the Devil Weed legalized. Not to mention that you’re supporting Osama everytime you light one up. Why do you pot smokers hate America?[/quote]
If it is legalized, it will be profitable. If is profitable, Americans will grow it. Americans would definately buy it. American growers see the money, the government taxes it, everyone’s happy.
Some will choose to smoke it, some will not, basically like right now. The only differnce is that the government has another source of revenue, and American growers rather than foreign growers see the profits.
Now, tell me, how is that hating America?
Recently back from Amsterdam…I hung out with a social worker there. He said that one reason they encouraged coffeeshops and pot to be (effectively) legal in Holland (it is not actually technically legal) is that they thought kids got in less trouble hanging out in coffeeshops, getting stoned, listening to music, then they would getting drunk and maybe smashing shit up. He said that when they wanted to reach dropout kids for positive activities (job training outreach, etc.) they could go to coffeeshops and talk to them there, it worked well. He was not a very liberal guy generally but he thought MJ legalization worked well. Rates of MJ use among Dutch teenagers are actually not that high.
I smoked up a bit when I was there, and just like a guy said upthread it was no problem just stopping when I left. I’m sure most tourists have similar experiences.
A downside of MJ legalization might be that it would make fat Americans eat even more than they already do!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
I think the point is that most of the illegal sale of weed is to people under the age of 18, and yet people are saying that legalizing the sale will eliminate or reduce the illegal market.
The illegal market, the smuggling, the black market sale, the late night corner buy from a guy in his 30’s on his 3 speed WILL decrease, if not disappear, if it is legalized. There is no more need for the black ops if it is legal. Likewise, there is no such thing as a need for “moonshine” and bath tub distillaries now that alcohol is legal. The amount of money being spent on a failed drug war could be used for other more important resources. You just said yourself how easy it was to get in your neighborhood. Why would you then think we still need to lose millions of dollars trying to stop it every year? [/quote]
I understand the logic. I have heard that there is more illegal trafficing of tobacco than there is LEGAL sale of tobacco. I don’t know if that’s true, but if we’re talking about big 200% or 300% government taxing (such as with tobacco) I think you’ll have the same drug dealing infrastructure in place that you have today.
Also, my basic response here is to the Libertarians’ argument that we’re going to get rid of all gvmt regulation of our lives. You don’t. What you get is licensing, taxing, state and local ordinances, legislated age limits, fines. Its not a step toward the Libertarian Utopia that some propose it is.
Good post, marc200.
Here we see a Canadian newspaper article which has an interesting tidbit in it:
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Jacobs_Mindelle/2005/08/06/1161331.html
"Also, a U.S. report released in May noted that the war on drugs has become a “war on marijuana.”
Pot arrests in the U.S. increased by 113% between 1990 and 2002 while non-marijuana arrests rose by only 10%, the study by the Sentencing Project found.
The U.S. spends $4 billion a year arresting, prosecuting and incarcerating marijuana offenders.
As for pot, the price has dropped, potency has increased and use has gone up."
Remember guys, this is bureaucracy. So you see, to justify that Four Billion in the budget, and all those law enforcement jobs – federal and state – we NEED to have marijuana very firmly and seriously illegal. If we decriminalize it like the article mentions Canada has effectively done, that budget will be lost. There are men with political power who have a lot to lose here. Go against the wishes of the Police Unions at your peril.
Having said that, I will also say that weed is not a great social ill. I do not see stoners in my ER all that much. What I do see are crackheads, heroin junkies, etc., in other words, the harder stuff. If we should decriminalize pot, I don’t think the world will come to an end. Actually, I would say that precription drug abuse is a far worse problem than marijuana. If these folks would just have a little reefer, then maybe they wouldn’t OD on oxycontin so much.