I have a BSME degree, and now do computer engineering work all day, work for a fortune 100 company, and I like smashing plates around. If your interested, I could certainly tell you about my 16 years in industry and what you’ll probably be doing all day long as an EE.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]broyourmybro wrote:
It surprises me how often people focus on the ROI of education. More specifically, the monetary ROI. Life if not entirely about the accumulation of wealth and maximization of returns. Education has intrinsic value. Learning is fun. Knowing shit is cool.
[/quote]
It’s mostly because of the economy and the fact that most people no longer hire people without exact specific skills that meet their needs.
It’s hard to place a history or English major into an exact skill-set as you could with most of the engineering majors.
Though it should be noted that random hard sciences like biology and math is equally useless unless you specialize by going into grad school. I know plenty of bio majors who get jobs at shitty pharma companies or tiny labs and work for like 20-30k a year. Not exactly a great return of investment, that.
When people say choose a good college major, they really mean “choose one of the engineering degrees or Comp. sci”. That’s simply because that’s where the jobs are at right now. The world is changing. Merely holding a college degree and being able to analyze things is not longer useful; you need to spend years learning how things work and be expected to apply it.
We certainly didn’t have super-electronics 50 years ago. Those that we did were absolute child’s play in technical terms when compared to what we have now. There’s just so much more to learn now.[/quote]
“Though it should be noted that random hard sciences like biology and math is equally useless unless you specialize by going into grad school”
Do you actually know anyone that’s done Maths? I ask because I did Maths and I’m doing a PhD now applying in Meteorology, so I kind of support your grad school idea. But most of my class left to get jobs and they all walked into really good careers in business or finance in London. I’m currently taking my CFA (chartered financial analyst) qualifications along with my PhD to ultimately end up in a quant job if all goes to plan.
I’ve noticed before on this board that everyone plugs the engineering degrees as the best, it’s true that they funnel you into a specific career that is great but in the UK at least, if you want to make the really good money you need to go into finance. I guess it might be different here though as in London especially, banking and investment banking dominates everything. From the people I know the mathematicians have generally done better than the engineers for money and jobs, and the engineers that did the best are doing software for banks.
I’ll chime in here. Me: 53 with a doctorate in Math., two kids, full time career scientist, martial artist and most people would tell you I really have my shit together. Major points are that
(1) College ain’t all it’s set up to be. Mostly it is an outlandishly expensive accreditation institution. I tell my students to play the system because the system is playing them. In reality you can get a good education at one, but that is in spite of it. Also, don’t just take classes. Find profs that know their stuff and take everything with them. Be an apprentice, not a shop clerk.
(2) In the end, all we have is each other. Seriously. Having a crappy life but a good career sucks. A lot of people my age found that out the hard way and are divorced, their kids are strangers who can’t stand them and they are very lonely. Love your wife, have kids and raise them well. That’s life. Everything outside of that is supporting this. Never lose sight of that fact, simple as it is.
(3) Oh and the most successful marriages, with the highest happiness, are … arranged. The reason for this, apparently, is that people go into them with no illusions that they will have to work hard on the relationship and do so. At the 10 year mark, they report 70% happiness as opposed to a 60% divorce rate at the 10 year mark for marriages founded solely on infatuation. Point is that if you find a great partner, part of your job is to make the relationship work and yes you budget time for that, no exceptions. Keep courting her 'til the day you die.
(4) Lay your hands on a copy of “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” by Cal Newport. He was getting a Ph. D. and decided as a research project to find out how to get a great job. The bottom line is that “following your passion” is not what successful people do. Not at all. People fall in love with things they do well, so figure out what you do well and get good at that. Happiness will often follow, at least far more reliably than trying to get that dream job. Your educational focus is to find something you think is easy and get good. We are what we do repeatedly, therefore, excellence is a habit. Srsly.
(5) Get rid of that damned liberal crap about being a cog in a wheel and having a joyless life. No. Any greeter at Walmart does more to actually help that elderly, handicapped and poor on a daily basis than the naysayer who wants to explain away their own miserable life. (Again, I work at a university so I get to hear all the folks at faculty brunches explaining why their recent paper on a gender-based re-assessment of Milton is way more crucial to world peace than what “those” menial people do, like wait on them or grow their food.) Yes, your contribution to society is your job and there are hundreds of people who benefit from it. It is a very happy thing indeed that you can get paid for it an make a comfortable living too. Working a job means you do things for people that they often cannot do and that is mighty grand, really. It might seem goofy to you, but I can guarantee whatever you can figure out to do in this world is damned near impossible for some group of people and they will be grateful to no end if you do it for them. Running a business changing people’s lightbulbs sound lame? Quadriplegics will worship the ground you walk on. That’s how it works.
As always, full of shit*,
–jj
================
- Cat’s out of the bag. I am a Mathematician and that means unless I can prove it (and my level of proof is way higher than yours – trust me – everything I say is subject to verification and empirical testing. Have at it. This is the meaning of my tagline.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
OP, I have no idea what you should do for work, but I do know that you should not settle for someone you don’t love passionately at 26. The two of you have already broken up twice. Let her go.
Find someone who wants you to be the best person you can possibly be, and who will support you in becoming that.[/quote]
YES! I made comments about your role in a relationship, OP. EmilyQ is right that she should be on the same page too or it won’t work. Don’t be a sexist pig: women (and men) have zero innate understanding of relationships so whoever you are dating has to show she really knows what she is doing in one. First wife wasn’t in to the “marriage thing” and as a result, I had a horrible time of it before I jettisoned her. I got to do all the work for everything. (In the end I got the kids, she ran off with some hippy loser and is currently living on food stamps. Total win.) Life got a lot better and now I am very happily married to the best woman in the world. Older son is honors in EE at college and younger son is starting next week.
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I’ll chime in here. Me: 53 with a doctorate in Math., two kids, full time career scientist, martial artist and most people would tell you I really have my shit together. Major points are that
(1) College ain’t all it’s set up to be. Mostly it is an outlandishly expensive accreditation institution. I tell my students to play the system because the system is playing them. In reality you can get a good education at one, but that is in spite of it. Also, don’t just take classes. Find profs that know their stuff and take everything with them. Be an apprentice, not a shop clerk.
(2) In the end, all we have is each other. Seriously. Having a crappy life but a good career sucks. A lot of people my age found that out the hard way and are divorced, their kids are strangers who can’t stand them and they are very lonely. Love your wife, have kids and raise them well. That’s life. Everything outside of that is supporting this. Never lose sight of that fact, simple as it is.
(3) Oh and the most successful marriages, with the highest happiness, are … arranged. The reason for this, apparently, is that people go into them with no illusions that they will have to work hard on the relationship and do so. At the 10 year mark, they report 70% happiness as opposed to a 60% divorce rate at the 10 year mark for marriages founded solely on infatuation. Point is that if you find a great partner, part of your job is to make the relationship work and yes you budget time for that, no exceptions. Keep courting her 'til the day you die.
(4) Lay your hands on a copy of “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” by Cal Newport. He was getting a Ph. D. and decided as a research project to find out how to get a great job. The bottom line is that “following your passion” is not what successful people do. Not at all. People fall in love with things they do well, so figure out what you do well and get good at that. Happiness will often follow, at least far more reliably than trying to get that dream job. Your educational focus is to find something you think is easy and get good. We are what we do repeatedly, therefore, excellence is a habit. Srsly.
(5) Get rid of that damned liberal crap about being a cog in a wheel and having a joyless life. No. Any greeter at Walmart does more to actually help that elderly, handicapped and poor on a daily basis than the naysayer who wants to explain away their own miserable life. (Again, I work at a university so I get to hear all the folks at faculty brunches explaining why their recent paper on a gender-based re-assessment of Milton is way more crucial to world peace than what “those” menial people do, like wait on them or grow their food.) Yes, your contribution to society is your job and there are hundreds of people who benefit from it. It is a very happy thing indeed that you can get paid for it an make a comfortable living too. Working a job means you do things for people that they often cannot do and that is mighty grand, really. It might seem goofy to you, but I can guarantee whatever you can figure out to do in this world is damned near impossible for some group of people and they will be grateful to no end if you do it for them. Running a business changing people’s lightbulbs sound lame? Quadriplegics will worship the ground you walk on. That’s how it works.
As always, full of shit*,
–jj
================
- Cat’s out of the bag. I am a Mathematician and that means unless I can prove it (and my level of proof is way higher than yours – trust me – everything I say is subject to verification and empirical testing. Have at it. This is the meaning of my tagline.[/quote]
God damn it is this a good post…
*waiting for people to claim you’re miserable and hate your life, your kids hate you and you’re just a grumpy old man…
[quote]talon2nr7588 wrote:
Yes, B.S. EET is a four year degree. However, from the little bit of research that I have done So companies do or do not differentiate between EE/EET and can be hired for the exact same job.
Back to what I originally posted about. What advice can you guys give me? Has anyone been in my exact same shoes?[/quote]
It really depends on the company. I have a BSEE and work at a company that won’t let you be anything but a tech with a BSEET degree. Honestly, I think it’s dumb to distinguish. So many other things are more important that drawing a hard line on the degree is short sighted. But companies do it, so what can you do?
I have an MS in management as well and honestly look back and wonder what I could have accomplished without the degrees. It’s a weird paradox. In the process of getting the degrees I learned enough that now I figure I could get along fine without them. And then there’s a lot of places where you just won’t ever get your foot in the door without the degree.
In effect, the degree industry is working towards pricing itself at cost parity. It used to be that a degree was a really good deal. Any degree would get you a much higher paying job and could usually be had for pretty cheap at a state school. The right degrees are still a pretty good deal, but that is changing. Eventually, a degree won’t give enough in extra earnings to justify itself financially. People will still get them for the other benefits such as status, a more interesting job, and personal fulfillment.
The investment value of a degree is being impinged from both sides. On the first hand, the cost of a degree is growing much faster than inflation. On the other hand, the percentage of people with a degree is still rising. This floods the labor supply and brings the price premium for a degreed worker down.
A BSEET is a solid degree that will continue to be a good investment for the forseeable future. This is for two reasons. The skills you learn are solid and non-negotiable. Contrast that with a liberal arts degree or even a business degree. An employer has to pay a premium for your degree because he can’t get someone who can do the same job another way. Second, the fringe benefits of an EET degree are lower, at least as perceived by the general public. Engineering is not interesting to most people and the status is not as high as some other fields. Thus, the financial benefits remain more solid.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I’ll chime in here. Me: 53 with a doctorate in Math., two kids, full time career scientist, martial artist and most people would tell you I really have my shit together. Major points are that
(1) College ain’t all it’s set up to be. Mostly it is an outlandishly expensive accreditation institution. I tell my students to play the system because the system is playing them. In reality you can get a good education at one, but that is in spite of it. Also, don’t just take classes. Find profs that know their stuff and take everything with them. Be an apprentice, not a shop clerk.
(2) In the end, all we have is each other. Seriously. Having a crappy life but a good career sucks. A lot of people my age found that out the hard way and are divorced, their kids are strangers who can’t stand them and they are very lonely. Love your wife, have kids and raise them well. That’s life. Everything outside of that is supporting this. Never lose sight of that fact, simple as it is.
(3) Oh and the most successful marriages, with the highest happiness, are … arranged. The reason for this, apparently, is that people go into them with no illusions that they will have to work hard on the relationship and do so. At the 10 year mark, they report 70% happiness as opposed to a 60% divorce rate at the 10 year mark for marriages founded solely on infatuation. Point is that if you find a great partner, part of your job is to make the relationship work and yes you budget time for that, no exceptions. Keep courting her 'til the day you die.
(4) Lay your hands on a copy of “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” by Cal Newport. He was getting a Ph. D. and decided as a research project to find out how to get a great job. The bottom line is that “following your passion” is not what successful people do. Not at all. People fall in love with things they do well, so figure out what you do well and get good at that. Happiness will often follow, at least far more reliably than trying to get that dream job. Your educational focus is to find something you think is easy and get good. We are what we do repeatedly, therefore, excellence is a habit. Srsly.
(5) Get rid of that damned liberal crap about being a cog in a wheel and having a joyless life. No. Any greeter at Walmart does more to actually help that elderly, handicapped and poor on a daily basis than the naysayer who wants to explain away their own miserable life. (Again, I work at a university so I get to hear all the folks at faculty brunches explaining why their recent paper on a gender-based re-assessment of Milton is way more crucial to world peace than what “those” menial people do, like wait on them or grow their food.) Yes, your contribution to society is your job and there are hundreds of people who benefit from it. It is a very happy thing indeed that you can get paid for it an make a comfortable living too. Working a job means you do things for people that they often cannot do and that is mighty grand, really. It might seem goofy to you, but I can guarantee whatever you can figure out to do in this world is damned near impossible for some group of people and they will be grateful to no end if you do it for them. Running a business changing people’s lightbulbs sound lame? Quadriplegics will worship the ground you walk on. That’s how it works.
As always, full of shit*,
–jj
================
- Cat’s out of the bag. I am a Mathematician and that means unless I can prove it (and my level of proof is way higher than yours – trust me – everything I say is subject to verification and empirical testing. Have at it. This is the meaning of my tagline.[/quote]
God damn it is this a good post…
*waiting for people to claim you’re miserable and hate your life, your kids hate you and you’re just a grumpy old man…[/quote]
Agreed.
But I am also a grumpy old man so what do I know
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I’ll chime in here. Me: 53 with a doctorate in Math., two kids, full time career scientist, martial artist and most people would tell you I really have my shit together. Major points are that
(1) College ain’t all it’s set up to be. Mostly it is an outlandishly expensive accreditation institution. I tell my students to play the system because the system is playing them. In reality you can get a good education at one, but that is in spite of it. Also, don’t just take classes. Find profs that know their stuff and take everything with them. Be an apprentice, not a shop clerk.
(2) In the end, all we have is each other. Seriously. Having a crappy life but a good career sucks. A lot of people my age found that out the hard way and are divorced, their kids are strangers who can’t stand them and they are very lonely. Love your wife, have kids and raise them well. That’s life. Everything outside of that is supporting this. Never lose sight of that fact, simple as it is.
(3) Oh and the most successful marriages, with the highest happiness, are … arranged. The reason for this, apparently, is that people go into them with no illusions that they will have to work hard on the relationship and do so. At the 10 year mark, they report 70% happiness as opposed to a 60% divorce rate at the 10 year mark for marriages founded solely on infatuation. Point is that if you find a great partner, part of your job is to make the relationship work and yes you budget time for that, no exceptions. Keep courting her 'til the day you die.
(4) Lay your hands on a copy of “So Good They Can’t Ignore You” by Cal Newport. He was getting a Ph. D. and decided as a research project to find out how to get a great job. The bottom line is that “following your passion” is not what successful people do. Not at all. People fall in love with things they do well, so figure out what you do well and get good at that. Happiness will often follow, at least far more reliably than trying to get that dream job. Your educational focus is to find something you think is easy and get good. We are what we do repeatedly, therefore, excellence is a habit. Srsly.
(5) Get rid of that damned liberal crap about being a cog in a wheel and having a joyless life. No. Any greeter at Walmart does more to actually help that elderly, handicapped and poor on a daily basis than the naysayer who wants to explain away their own miserable life. (Again, I work at a university so I get to hear all the folks at faculty brunches explaining why their recent paper on a gender-based re-assessment of Milton is way more crucial to world peace than what “those” menial people do, like wait on them or grow their food.) Yes, your contribution to society is your job and there are hundreds of people who benefit from it. It is a very happy thing indeed that you can get paid for it an make a comfortable living too. Working a job means you do things for people that they often cannot do and that is mighty grand, really. It might seem goofy to you, but I can guarantee whatever you can figure out to do in this world is damned near impossible for some group of people and they will be grateful to no end if you do it for them. Running a business changing people’s lightbulbs sound lame? Quadriplegics will worship the ground you walk on. That’s how it works.
As always, full of shit*,
–jj
================
- Cat’s out of the bag. I am a Mathematician and that means unless I can prove it (and my level of proof is way higher than yours – trust me – everything I say is subject to verification and empirical testing. Have at it. This is the meaning of my tagline.[/quote]
God damn it is this a good post…
*waiting for people to claim you’re miserable and hate your life, your kids hate you and you’re just a grumpy old man…[/quote]
Agreed.
But I am also a grumpy old man so what do I know[/quote]
I must be a grumpy old man, too, because I loved this post.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
TLDR[/quote]
Lol, sounds like you’re miserable and hate your life. Not to mention your kids hate you. You’re just a grumpy old man. #REKT
(great post though, that is incredibly valuable advice)
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
Do you actually know anyone that’s done Maths? I ask because I did Maths and I’m doing a PhD now applying in Meteorology, so I kind of support your grad school idea. But most of my class left to get jobs and they all walked into really good careers in business or finance in London. I’m currently taking my CFA (chartered financial analyst) qualifications along with my PhD to ultimately end up in a quant job if all goes to plan.[/quote]
Yes. I know a number of people who did. Most of them did math because they liked math/were really good at math in high school and don’t have a clue what to do with their life after they graduate.
Sounds a lot like people who get English majors, huh?
Also note that those jobs aren’t directly related to math or related principles, like a mathematician or a logician or something. Clearly being good at computing or math skills is valuable in those fields, but it would be like someone who got an English major who then went into journalism or media, writes technical manuals, does something at a major corporation that involves writing, or what have you.
The fact of the matter is, smart and inventive people who get English majors with actual ambition will probably do things with their English major and get a well-paying, stable job.
The major itself (unless it’s something completely ridiculous like Women’s Studies or something [I say this only because I really have no idea wtf you’d do with that degree, but given that there are some rather hardcore feminist groups out there, maybe even this degree will get you a job if you apply what I wrote here] doesn’t really matter in the long run. Obviously certain majors are much easier to get a job with. These are majors like the various engineering degrees or comp. sci. These have a huge job market (if you’re willing to relocate to wherever the jobs are) and will be in great demand for the foreseeable future.
But these majors are brutally difficult. You not only have to do well in class, but you also have to be a very driven and intelligent person.
Honestly? I believe that people who go into liberal arts majors don’t do well at getting a job mostly because they’re not very driven or motivated people who clearly want to get something out of life. Rather, they just go to college because well-off folks are supposed to go to college these days. I don’t think the major itself is to blame.
This obviously applies to most other majors as well. But majors with solid job prospects are self-selective; they are brutal and people who simply cannot follow the coursework will either drop out or fail to get a job after they graduate with a 2.0 GPA or lower. It’s difficult to even graduate with these degrees unless you actually commit yourself.
[quote]
I’ve noticed before on this board that everyone plugs the engineering degrees as the best, it’s true that they funnel you into a specific career that is great but in the UK at least, if you want to make the really good money you need to go into finance. I guess it might be different here though as in London especially, banking and investment banking dominates everything. From the people I know the mathematicians have generally done better than the engineers for money and jobs, and the engineers that did the best are doing software for banks.[/quote]
It may be important to note that I grew up in the Silicon Valley, have a father who is in the semiconductor business, and virtually everyone I know with a good job right now are in the computer business =P
Obviously where you live and grow up will determine the way you view things. If I grew up in NY and have a father who did Wall Street, then I’d probably think finance is where its at.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
Do you actually know anyone that’s done Maths? I ask because I did Maths and I’m doing a PhD now applying in Meteorology, so I kind of support your grad school idea. But most of my class left to get jobs and they all walked into really good careers in business or finance in London. I’m currently taking my CFA (chartered financial analyst) qualifications along with my PhD to ultimately end up in a quant job if all goes to plan.[/quote]
Yes. I know a number of people who did. Most of them did math because they liked math/were really good at math in high school and don’t have a clue what to do with their life after they graduate.
Sounds a lot like people who get English majors, huh?
Also note that those jobs aren’t directly related to math or related principles, like a mathematician or a logician or something. Clearly being good at computing or math skills is valuable in those fields, but it would be like someone who got an English major who then went into journalism or media, writes technical manuals, does something at a major corporation that involves writing, or what have you.
The fact of the matter is, smart and inventive people who get English majors with actual ambition will probably do things with their English major and get a well-paying, stable job.
The major itself (unless it’s something completely ridiculous like Women’s Studies or something [I say this only because I really have no idea wtf you’d do with that degree, but given that there are some rather hardcore feminist groups out there, maybe even this degree will get you a job if you apply what I wrote here] doesn’t really matter in the long run. Obviously certain majors are much easier to get a job with. These are majors like the various engineering degrees or comp. sci. These have a huge job market (if you’re willing to relocate to wherever the jobs are) and will be in great demand for the foreseeable future.
But these majors are brutally difficult. You not only have to do well in class, but you also have to be a very driven and intelligent person.
Honestly? I believe that people who go into liberal arts majors don’t do well at getting a job mostly because they’re not very driven or motivated people who clearly want to get something out of life. Rather, they just go to college because well-off folks are supposed to go to college these days. I don’t think the major itself is to blame.
This obviously applies to most other majors as well. But majors with solid job prospects are self-selective; they are brutal and people who simply cannot follow the coursework will either drop out or fail to get a job after they graduate with a 2.0 GPA or lower. It’s difficult to even graduate with these degrees unless you actually commit yourself.
[quote]
I’ve noticed before on this board that everyone plugs the engineering degrees as the best, it’s true that they funnel you into a specific career that is great but in the UK at least, if you want to make the really good money you need to go into finance. I guess it might be different here though as in London especially, banking and investment banking dominates everything. From the people I know the mathematicians have generally done better than the engineers for money and jobs, and the engineers that did the best are doing software for banks.[/quote]
It may be important to note that I grew up in the Silicon Valley, have a father who is in the semiconductor business, and virtually everyone I know with a good job right now are in the computer business =P
Obviously where you live and grow up will determine the way you view things. If I grew up in NY and have a father who did Wall Street, then I’d probably think finance is where its at.[/quote]
It is generally true that if you really want to pursue a career that requires a high level of maths then a standard undergrad isn’t going to cut it. You really need a PhD in your field. But if you do go down that route there’s some really amazing applications you can do. Just in my PhD office alone there is some very diverse research going on.
Someone’s modelling tumour growth to optimise chemotherapy and radiotherapy treatments, another is looking at targeted drugs for diabetes. Someone else is modelling drug delivery injections to see how quickly different drugs act and where they travel. Another is modelling tyre friction with Williams F1 team. I’m modelling convection in rapid cloud growth to help predict heavy rainfall events. Plus there are quite a few pure mathematicians that I honestly don’t understand what they are doing. There is scope for a mathematician to slot into virtually any science field they want, so I would argue maths opens a lot of doors, but yes if you want to be doing really interesting stuff it does require further study.
If you took a lot of stats modules then there are quite a few jobs that require it too, any kind of work requiring optimisation for one, so trains, airports, any mass haulage etc hires quite a few statisticians. The people I know who went into finance and business roles were picked because of the stats and general analytical background, most of them are doing business or financial analyst roles, so the maths degree is important.
I’m just saying, maths deserves some love too. There are so many options, more than a lot of maths graduates themselves know of, they just aren’t funnelled into one specific career like an engineering or comp sci is, but that doesn’t make them any less employable.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
I’m just saying, maths deserves some love too. There are so many options, more than a lot of maths graduates themselves know of, they just aren’t funnelled into one specific career like an engineering or comp sci is, but that doesn’t make them any less employable.[/quote]
Oh I agree. Please don’t think that I’m saying math is a useless degree.
The point I wanted to make is that the degree and education themselves aren’t what’s bad; it’s that the people who take them (and possibly the people who teach them) aren’t motivated to do things with them and/or just don’t have much motivation and determination to achieve something.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
In reality you can get a good education at one, but that is in spite of it. Also, don’t just take classes. Find profs that know their stuff and take everything with them. Be an apprentice, not a shop clerk.[/quote]
Good post all-in-all. This part I’d especially agree with.
Additionally, universities are absolutely great for the libraries. No, not the “place to study”, but the actual books, theses, and the fact that you can get just about anything from anywhere without having to pay for it (e.g., journals).
Sometimes you’ll learn stuff in class, but the best thing I ever did in college was use my classes to give me the basis so I could actually get my real education reading the books and papers. That’s the stuff that will truly expand your mind to what’s possible.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
I’m just saying, maths deserves some love too. There are so many options, more than a lot of maths graduates themselves know of, they just aren’t funnelled into one specific career like an engineering or comp sci is, but that doesn’t make them any less employable.[/quote]
Comp sci could use more mathematicians.
And I could use some more math myself, since I’m still having a hard time wrapping my head around this: http://knowledgecenter.siam.org/252SDM/1
And that’s not even very hard math.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
In reality you can get a good education at one, but that is in spite of it. Also, don’t just take classes. Find profs that know their stuff and take everything with them. Be an apprentice, not a shop clerk.[/quote]
Good post all-in-all. This part I’d especially agree with.
Additionally, universities are absolutely great for the libraries. No, not the “place to study”, but the actual books, theses, and the fact that you can get just about anything from anywhere without having to pay for it (e.g., journals).
Sometimes you’ll learn stuff in class, but the best thing I ever did in college was use my classes to give me the basis so I could actually get my real education reading the books and papers. That’s the stuff that will truly expand your mind to what’s possible.[/quote]
This is pretty much exactly how I’ve treated my classes and internships thus far. Seems to be working.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
I’m just saying, maths deserves some love too. There are so many options, more than a lot of maths graduates themselves know of, they just aren’t funnelled into one specific career like an engineering or comp sci is, but that doesn’t make them any less employable.[/quote]
Comp sci could use more mathematicians.
And I could use some more math myself, since I’m still having a hard time wrapping my head around this: http://knowledgecenter.siam.org/252SDM/1
And that’s not even very hard math.[/quote]
Linear algebra should be pretty easy to self-teach. Calculation is hella annoying though.
[quote]magick wrote:
Oh I agree. Please don’t think that I’m saying math is a useless degree.
The point I wanted to make is that the degree and education themselves aren’t what’s bad; it’s that the people who take them (and possibly the people who teach them) aren’t motivated to do things with them and/or just don’t have much motivation and determination to achieve something.[/quote]
I am somewhat inclined to agree with you. I actually entered university on an Electronic Engineering degree, decided it wasn’t for me and switched to maths for the next year, definitely the right decision for me. I don’t regret not starting with maths as my programming skills were a lot better from just one year of EE. I do a lot of modelling now so I consider that year very valuable. I should note I’m from the UK, so the extra year only set me back £3k, if I was in the US I might feel differently!
I essentially picked maths because I was good at it and I wasn’t entirely sure what I wanted to do yet. When I was doing my A levels I went to a talk with 3 top mathematicians, I remembered a piece of advice they gave me which was stick with the maths for as long as you can and then branch out. That’s what I did and it worked out pretty well for me, but when I started I would have been one of your friends who didn’t know what they wanted to do yet.
There are a lot of cool things you can do with maths, but I see where you are coming from. Because you don’t have that set career path you do need to be very motivated and actively look into and pursue different options if you really want to make the most of your degree. Which a lot of people aren’t
Are you eligible to take a PE test in your state with the EET degree? I know you said you’re more interested in the field work, but if you don’t have a degree that can lead to a PE license you could be closing a lot of future opportunities.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
Oh I agree. Please don’t think that I’m saying math is a useless degree.
The point I wanted to make is that the degree and education themselves aren’t what’s bad; it’s that the people who take them (and possibly the people who teach them) aren’t motivated to do things with them and/or just don’t have much motivation and determination to achieve something.[/quote]
I am somewhat inclined to agree with you. I actually entered university on an Electronic Engineering degree, decided it wasn’t for me and switched to maths for the next year, definitely the right decision for me. I don’t regret not starting with maths as my programming skills were a lot better from just one year of EE. I do a lot of modelling now so I consider that year very valuable. I should note I’m from the UK, so the extra year only set me back Ã?£3k, if I was in the US I might feel differently!
I essentially picked maths because I was good at it and I wasn’t entirely sure what I wanted to do yet. When I was doing my A levels I went to a talk with 3 top mathematicians, I remembered a piece of advice they gave me which was stick with the maths for as long as you can and then branch out. That’s what I did and it worked out pretty well for me, but when I started I would have been one of your friends who didn’t know what they wanted to do yet.
There are a lot of cool things you can do with maths, but I see where you are coming from. Because you don’t have that set career path you do need to be very motivated and actively look into and pursue different options if you really want to make the most of your degree. Which a lot of people aren’t[/quote]
Who knew there were so many with math degrees around here? I also started in EE, had stints in kinesiology and chemistry when I thought I wanted to go to med school, and finished with a BS in math but didn’t do any post grad work like some of you guys.
I have to agree with most of what has been said by you and jj. I had a couple good job offers as an actuary when I graduated, but felt I would be bored with it after an internship and went in another direction. In the end, things have worked out well. Let’s just say I’m in technical sales. I may be giving up some salary compared with an actuarial career, but it’s hard to beat the flexibility I have now. In hindsight, I still think I should have given the actuary career a fair shot, and probably would have if job offers were more local. The first few years would have sucked for sure, but I think once I got the FSA I would have enjoyed it. Oh well.
All of that being said, and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I’d encourage most young males to go after an engineering degree. Most people of average or slightly above average intelligence can get through the coursework with a little dedication, and the job security and salary potential is far better than what your average person is going to otherwise have. For those in the 99% percentile, advanced degrees in math, finance, or one of the hard sciences may be a better route unless engineering is what you really want to do, and if that’s the case just make sure you do it well and you will quickly rise to the top.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
I am somewhat inclined to agree with you. I actually entered university on an Electronic Engineering degree, decided it wasn’t for me and switched to maths for the next year, definitely the right decision for me. I don’t regret not starting with maths as my programming skills were a lot better from just one year of EE. I do a lot of modelling now so I consider that year very valuable. I should note I’m from the UK, so the extra year only set me back Ã?£3k, if I was in the US I might feel differently!
I essentially picked maths because I was good at it and I wasn’t entirely sure what I wanted to do yet. When I was doing my A levels I went to a talk with 3 top mathematicians, I remembered a piece of advice they gave me which was stick with the maths for as long as you can and then branch out. That’s what I did and it worked out pretty well for me, but when I started I would have been one of your friends who didn’t know what they wanted to do yet.
There are a lot of cool things you can do with maths, but I see where you are coming from. Because you don’t have that set career path you do need to be very motivated and actively look into and pursue different options if you really want to make the most of your degree. Which a lot of people aren’t[/quote]
Sounds like you got some good advice =P
Most things you learn in your major is useful, provided that you went to an actual good school and learned from teachers who actually had enthusiasm for teaching and knew their shit. The problem is with APPLYING what you learned.
Majors like the various engineering or specific ones like accounting have a set-path. All you need to do is know your shit very well and you already know where to apply for your job. As you wrote, your major is designed to help you start in a set career. All you have to do is show that you have the talent and the will to suceed.
But with other majors, like math and English, the path is not as clearly defined. As such, you must be capable of forging your own path.
See, here’s the funny part; I admire the American method of schooling because it gives you a lot of lee-way and doesn’t railroad you. It encourages you to be independent and forge your own path. You do what you want to do because you like it. Presumably this is supposed to help you find a career you enjoy, simply because you spent most of your formative years learning about yourself and finding what you’re good at.
This is unlike Korea, where everything you learn is pretty much set from birth and you’re just railroaded all the way to post-college. If you happen to be good though, then you go to the good high schools and the good colleges. But the things you learn are essentially the things you learn. Sure, there are random after-school activities that you can take and shit; but afaik those go away when you go into middle school. From there it’s just studying from 8AM-11PM and trying to get the best fucking score possible.
The real purpose of schooling is to make you a competent individual who can become a strong cog in the system of national improvement. Education wasn’t meant to make you an independent human being who knows things; they were meant to forge you into something the state can use.
I honestly think the chaos in the U.S. school-systems now is because people are trying to merge the two.
But they don’t merge very well. They follow fundamentally different philosophies about what education is meant to achieve. You cannot simply take aspects of the 60s-90s Asian system of education, plop it into America, and expect things to go well. The converse is true as well; nowadays Korea is trying to become more Americanized in terms of education. Last I heard, it’s not going very well.
In short… I think people who don’t do well with all those history and English majors and whatnot are failing because they were never taught to be capable of forging their own path.
(Sorry for the long, off-topic post).