[quote]rl4g63 wrote:
Its always funny to watch others criticize people for their actions. its even funnier to listen to people become experts on a subject they know nothing about. The problem doesnt lie with in this one incident, it stems from the treatment of african americans over the course of our history. In know way am i agreeing with any type of violence, but i dont think you have the right to provoke any group of people. [/quote]
Actually, you do have the right to provoke any and all groups of people if by “provoking” you mean having and expressing general views with which they disagree. That right is embodied in the First Amendment of the Constitution, and it applies whether you are dead right or dead wrong in your thinking or your beliefs.
There are certain areas that fall outside the category of “political beliefs,” (i.e. planning the violent overthrow of the government, planning crimes, hurling individual-specific insults) but to the extent they existed here they don’t seem to have played much of a part in the rioting.
Please note that I find both Nazis and Communists (especially to the extent those groups are represented by past regimes claiming those titles who came to power) to be abhorrent. But they do have the right to speak – and one of the benefits to allowing that right is allowing their positions to be exposed to the light of day, especially in terms of counteragruments and moral judgments by the people, rather than have them festering undergroud and people (of lesser intellectual capacities) attracted to the ideologies because of their persecution (the thought process being: “Look at how hard the government is working to suppress this info – there must be something to it.”)
Why is this shit 3 pages long? Since when did anyone think gangs were the epitome of education and advancement? What fool would sit here and look at this as if the actions of a street gang represent me or another black person in this country? Do we get to blame the actions of all serial killers on all white males between the ages of 20-35?
The answer to why this is three pages long, is that regardless of the glossy coating, there still is a large race issue in this country. The street gangs who did this and anyone else involved just educated the entire country on how stupid they are. This should have ended on page one.
Any black person who has made any headway towards success in this country has had to bite their tongue on racial issues at one time or another. It is called discipline, and the street gangs who did this showed that they have none. But who is surprised that a street gang has little to no discipline? It’s a fucking street gang. They could be an Asian street gang and I would expect just as much.
What shows racism in this thread is that anyone would use this as a representation of all blacks in this country. That is the only sick ingredient in this thread. I don’t give a shit about neo-Nazis. They are less than scum but rioting doesn’t make up for their worthlessness. Anyone making more of this than that is a douche. It was a fucking street gang. This should have ended on page one.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
rl4g63 wrote:
Its always funny to watch others criticize people for their actions. its even funnier to listen to people become experts on a subject they know nothing about. The problem doesnt lie with in this one incident, it stems from the treatment of african americans over the course of our history. In know way am i agreeing with any type of violence, but i dont think you have the right to provoke any group of people.
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
The thugs were not provoked. They acted on their own.
When will the “they are poor black people” excuse finally play out? They are fully responsible for their own actions. There was no white threat to their well-being. I’m sick of the excuses.[/quote]
They call them poor black people because they are poor. Until people realize that blacks never had the same oppurtunities as their counterparts, problems in their community will exist. We can point fingers all we want but its not going to get us anywhere. Better education, and better oppurtunities are some of the ways to fight the problem. Did you hear me say that rioting or looting was ok? No you didnt. Did I say their actions were right? No I didnt. Bottom line is that they were provoked and acted on it. Also they may have not even marched, but the fact that a NEO-NAZI group came to that close to protesting is enough. It wouldnt have matter had they protested because the rioting and looting still wouldnt have been ok. The NEO-NAZIS didnt have to speak any negative words. Their actions in the past are enough. Fighting and violence isnt ok, but when you teach people that fighting is their only weapon, what do you expect?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why is this shit 3 pages long? Since when did anyone think gangs were the epitome of education and advancement? What fool would sit here and look at this as if the actions of a street gang represent me or another black person in this country? Do we get to blame the actions of all serial killers on all white males between the ages of 20-35?
The answer to why this is three pages long, is that regardless of the glossy coating, there still is a large race issue in this country. The street gangs who did this and anyone else involved just educated the entire country on how stupid they are. This should have ended on page one.
Any black person who has made any headway towards success in this country has had to bite their tongue on racial issues at one time or another. It is called discipline, and the street gangs who did this showed that they have none. But who is surprised that a street gang has little to no discipline? It’s a fucking street gang. They could be an Asian street gang and I would expect just as much.
What shows racism in this thread is that anyone would use this as a representation of all blacks in this country. That is the only sick ingredient in this thread. I don’t give a shit about neo-Nazis. They are less than scum but rioting doesn’t make up for their worthlessness. Anyone making more of this than that is a douche. It was a fucking street gang. This should have ended on page one.[/quote]
The issue has not been about the blacks.
The issue that has been discussed hs been the neo-nazi’s right to assemble.
Only one guy has posted about it being a black thing. But you would have known that had you actually read all three pages.
RainJack,I only skipped thru a few of the post’s about the people’s right to assemble which i agree with.But in Cincinnati Ohio in the early 80s when they were trying to break unions, which is a high republican area,The trade unions were going to have a assembly,parade to show union solidarity and were denied,I cant remember all the details but i thought it was funny that a Gay Pride Parade took place in the same exact spot,but working men and women were not allowed.It just goes to show the rules arent the same every where for everybody.
[quote]ron33 wrote:
RainJack,I only skipped thru a few of the post’s about the people’s right to assemble which i agree with.But in Cincinnati Ohio in the early 80s when they were trying to break unions, which is a high republican area,The trade unions were going to have a assembly,parade to show union solidarity and were denied,I cant remember all the details but i thought it was funny that a Gay Pride Parade took place in the same exact spot,but working men and women were not allowed.It just goes to show the rules arent the same every where for everybody.[/quote]
Also, not everyone has the means to sue the city if they are denied rights. I think it was extremely irresponible that a hate group was going to be allowed to march down the sidewalk in a black neighborhood…and no one expected anything negative to happen. That’s just stupid.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
ron33 wrote:
RainJack,I only skipped thru a few of the post’s about the people’s right to assemble which i agree with.But in Cincinnati Ohio in the early 80s when they were trying to break unions, which is a high republican area,The trade unions were going to have a assembly,parade to show union solidarity and were denied,I cant remember all the details but i thought it was funny that a Gay Pride Parade took place in the same exact spot,but working men and women were not allowed.It just goes to show the rules arent the same every where for everybody.
Also, not everyone has the means to sue the city if they are denied rights. I think it was extremely irresponible that a hate group was going to be allowed to march down the sidewalk in a black neighborhood…and no one expected anything negative to happen. That’s just stupid.[/quote]
Right On! Prof.X ,I think they should’nt have been allowed ,common sense would tell anyone its only going to create trouble.Their lucky no one was killed!Plus then that city probably had to have extra cops on duty and pay overtime to protect the nutzi’s
[quote]Professor X wrote:
ron33 wrote:
RainJack,I only skipped thru a few of the post’s about the people’s right to assemble which i agree with.But in Cincinnati Ohio in the early 80s when they were trying to break unions, which is a high republican area,The trade unions were going to have a assembly,parade to show union solidarity and were denied,I cant remember all the details but i thought it was funny that a Gay Pride Parade took place in the same exact spot,but working men and women were not allowed.It just goes to show the rules arent the same every where for everybody.
Also, not everyone has the means to sue the city if they are denied rights. I think it was extremely irresponible that a hate group was going to be allowed to march down the sidewalk in a black neighborhood…and no one expected anything negative to happen. That’s just stupid.[/quote]
It may be stupid, but they are guaranteed the right to assemble under the constitution.
That is the issue here. Not where, not when, and not why.
I’m not sure what you guys are even arguing. That some pro-labor groups were denied their constitutional rights in the 80’s? That was 20 years ago, and if their rights were violated, they should have sued. And don’t give me the “they didn’t have the money” excuse. The ACLU would have been all over that case - pro bono.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
It may be stupid, but they are guaranteed the right to assemble under the constitution.
That is the issue here. Not where, not when, and not why.
I’m not sure what you guys are even arguing. That some pro-labor groups were denied their constitutional rights in the 80’s? That was 20 years ago, and if their rights were violated, they should have sued. And don’t give me the “they didn’t have the money” excuse. The ACLU would have been all over that case - pro bono.
[/quote]
I don’t think you understand. The city had to issue a state of emergency? What crackhead running that city didn’t think that “something” would happen if some skin heads walk down the street in a poor black neighborhood chanting…what, nursery rhymes? That was what the chant was going to be, right? I can see it now, “We like yellow, we like blue but blacks make us go ickie poo!”
There is no way this should have been done without major effort by that city to prepare that neighborhood for violence. That means MORE than just getting on the radio and asking people to stay inside. It was irresponsible to handle that situation the way it was handled. That doesn’t change the fact that the destruction by gangs was wrong…but what fool didn’t expect something like that to happen?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why is this shit 3 pages long? Since when did anyone think gangs were the epitome of education and advancement? What fool would sit here and look at this as if the actions of a street gang represent me or another black person in this country? Do we get to blame the actions of all serial killers on all white males between the ages of 20-35?
The answer to why this is three pages long, is that regardless of the glossy coating, there still is a large race issue in this country. The street gangs who did this and anyone else involved just educated the entire country on how stupid they are. This should have ended on page one.
Any black person who has made any headway towards success in this country has had to bite their tongue on racial issues at one time or another. It is called discipline, and the street gangs who did this showed that they have none. But who is surprised that a street gang has little to no discipline? It’s a fucking street gang. They could be an Asian street gang and I would expect just as much.
What shows racism in this thread is that anyone would use this as a representation of all blacks in this country. That is the only sick ingredient in this thread. I don’t give a shit about neo-Nazis. They are less than scum but rioting doesn’t make up for their worthlessness. Anyone making more of this than that is a douche. It was a fucking street gang. This should have ended on page one.[/quote]
Did i say that their actions represent every african american in this nation??? Our street gangs a major problem in the african american community??? Yes. I may not speak for you but I do speak for alot of african americans who grow up in that enviorment. You guys can argue all you want whether or not they had a right to organize a protest. My point is that their is a problem w/in my community and there needs to be something done about it. Most of you dont give a damn about street gangs and know nothing about them. Im not saying that it was ok to act as they did. I bet if i came into the NEO-NAZIS neighborhood protesting they would try to tear a hole in me. Bottom line is there more to it than NEO-NAZIS having the right to protest.
And MAC 617 tries to compare the panthers to NEO-NAZIS. The panthers were a party who tried to promote empowerment of their community. The panthers were disbanded after the U.S. Government concluded they were a national threat. Even though they started programs to feed the poor, educate their own about alchol and drug abuse. And the NEO-NAZIS what have they done??? But where are the panthers and where are the NAZIS???
[quote]mica617 wrote:
I heard that a member of the Black Panthers was going to drive down the road in front of my house today, so I just set fire to my barn. I think the Black Panthers should be held liable for my actions.
Doesn’t quite have the same ring to it as the Ohio story, now, does it?[/quote]
You are comparing a radical political group from the 60s to the nazi’s. Do I evden have to point out the flaws of your post.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t think you understand. The city had to issue a state of emergency? What crackhead running that city didn’t think that “something” would happen if some skin heads walk down the street in a poor black neighborhood chanting…what, nursery rhymes? That was what the chant was going to be, right? I can see it now, “We like yellow, we like blue but blacks make us go ickie poo!” [/quote]
I’m sorry, but the mental picture of you sitting there thinking of something that ryhmes with ‘blue’ just cracked me the hell up.
But - the skinheads never took a step. And I think a better question is - why did they destroy their own neighborhood? I could understand the thugs going after the skin heads - had they actually marched. But to destroy your own shit? And blocks away from the march’s staging area?
Perhaps the city should have planned better, but I would imagine they were more concerned with the march, and stopping the possible violence it might have sparked than they were stopping a bunch of thugs that weren’t even in the area. Besides, the violence erupted AFTER the march was cancelled.
I don’t care how you slice it, the thugs were wrong. Period. Blaming the city is a chicken shit excuse.
[quote]rl4g63 wrote:
And MAC 617 tries to compare the panthers to NEO-NAZIS. The panthers were a party who tried to promote empowerment of their community. The panthers were disbanded after the U.S. Government concluded they were a national threat. Even though they started programs to feed the poor, educate their own about alchol and drug abuse. And the NEO-NAZIS what have they done??? But where are the panthers and where are the NAZIS???[/quote]
How thick headed can you be? No one gives a shit about the moral fiber of the neo-nazis, or the Black Panthers. That bullshit is totally irrelevant.
Both groups have the right to assemble. It has jack shit to do with what color you are. It is about the right to assemble.
To make it out to be anything other than that is just flat out stupidity.
Wanna have yet another discussion about the plight of the black man? Start a thread and knock yourself out. But this debate is not the place to start it.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
rl4g63 wrote:
And MAC 617 tries to compare the panthers to NEO-NAZIS. The panthers were a party who tried to promote empowerment of their community. The panthers were disbanded after the U.S. Government concluded they were a national threat. Even though they started programs to feed the poor, educate their own about alchol and drug abuse. And the NEO-NAZIS what have they done??? But where are the panthers and where are the NAZIS???
How thick headed can you be? No one gives a shit about the moral fiber of the neo-nazis, or the Black Panthers. That bullshit is totally irrelevant.
Both groups have the right to assemble. It has jack shit to do with what color you are. It is about the right to assemble.
To make it out to be anything other than that is just flat out stupidity.
Wanna have yet another discussion about the plight of the black man? Start a thread and knock yourself out. But this debate is not the place to start it.
[/quote]
Did i bring them up in the first place???
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I just showed a point that there is no comparison. This thread has nothing to do with the panthers i know that. But your buddy over here doesnt seem to understand that. Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.
What would have been the problem with protesting in a neutral neighborhood??? Why did they have to protest right in the heart of the black community??? Why were they allowed to do that??? Maybe they had the right to but was it the best decision???
Governments can impose ideologically neutral time, place and manner restrictions (TPMs) on free speech. For instance, they can prohibit people from driving around neighborhoods at midnight and using bullhorns to speak their political messages.
If they normally allow parades to go through that section of town, they’d have a tough time arguing that it was an “ideologically neutral” TPM if they were to disallow the neo-Nazis from marching through there. However, I don’t know how many parades go through that area, if it’s as has been described above.
In any event, they probably should have had more security. From what I understand from an interview with a local assistant pastor at a black church in the neighborhood, there were a lot of “professional protestors” bussed in to be anti-protestors against the neo-Nazis (the pastor was making the point that the people in the neighborhood were “good folks,” and that it was the outsiders who started the problems). If the police were aware that there was going to be large group assembled to cause problems or to interfere with the speech rights of the marchers, they should have provided a sufficient force to protect their rights to free speech (I think they may be allowed to make the marchers pay for increased security, but I’m not sure about that if its solely due to their message – I suppose they could argue it’s due to the location though…).
[quote]rl4g63 wrote:
Did i say that their actions represent every african american in this nation??? Our street gangs a major problem in the african american community??? Yes. I may not speak for you but I do speak for alot of african americans who grow up in that enviorment. You guys can argue all you want whether or not they had a right to organize a protest. My point is that their is a problem w/in my community and there needs to be something done about it. Most of you dont give a damn about street gangs and know nothing about them. Im not saying that it was ok to act as they did. I bet if i came into the NEO-NAZIS neighborhood protesting they would try to tear a hole in me. Bottom line is there more to it than NEO-NAZIS having the right to protest.
And MAC 617 tries to compare the panthers to NEO-NAZIS. The panthers were a party who tried to promote empowerment of their community. The panthers were disbanded after the U.S. Government concluded they were a national threat. Even though they started programs to feed the poor, educate their own about alchol and drug abuse. And the NEO-NAZIS what have they done??? But where are the panthers and where are the NAZIS???[/quote]
Why do you think I disagree with you? I am not new to gangs or bad neighborhoods. I was in the fourth grade the first time I was shot at all because a kid wanted my shoes. I also know about the Black Panthers and understand what they accomplished, what they stood for, and how scared the government was of them at that time period. You mistook what I wrote for some reason, and my guess, it is because your emotions are leading your head.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Governments can impose ideologically neutral time, place and manner restrictions (TPMs) on free speech. For instance, they can prohibit people from driving around neighborhoods at midnight and using bullhorns to speak their political messages.
[/quote]
With that in mind, I am wondering who was so incompetent as to allow this without thinking of the final result. Is anyone here so in the dark that they think a group of skinheads could march through any “poor” black neighborhood and everyone would just stay inside? It isn’t like they are afraid of the Nazis.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
With that in mind, I am wondering who was so incompetent as to allow this without thinking of the final result. Is anyone here so in the dark that they think a group of skinheads could march through any “poor” black neighborhood and everyone would just stay inside? It isn’t like they are afraid of the Nazis.[/quote]
No one marched anywhere. How hard is that to understand? The city cancelled the march. The rioting took place after it was already cancelled.
Making excuses for a bunch of gang bangers by blaming the city for not knowing that they would destroy their own community after the march was already cancelled is just idiotic.
[quote]rl4g63 wrote:
Did i bring them up in the first place???
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I just showed a point that there is no comparison. This thread has nothing to do with the panthers i know that. But your buddy over here doesnt seem to understand that. Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.[/quote]
My facts are fine. It is you that is acting like an emotional idiot. The only comparison that Mica made to the black panthers was one of rights - not of belief. And in that respect, he is absolutely correct - the nazis have the exact same right to assemble and to protest as the black pnathers do.
Now - go take some midol, and take a nap.
Because they have the right to do exactly what they did. To not allow it based on their beliefs is a violation of their rights. Honsetly - how hard is that for to understand?
Until you know what the debate is even about, I suggest you sit on the curb and watch. You are only getting in the way.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rl4g63 wrote:
Did i say that their actions represent every african american in this nation??? Our street gangs a major problem in the african american community??? Yes. I may not speak for you but I do speak for alot of african americans who grow up in that enviorment. You guys can argue all you want whether or not they had a right to organize a protest. My point is that their is a problem w/in my community and there needs to be something done about it. Most of you dont give a damn about street gangs and know nothing about them. Im not saying that it was ok to act as they did. I bet if i came into the NEO-NAZIS neighborhood protesting they would try to tear a hole in me. Bottom line is there more to it than NEO-NAZIS having the right to protest.
And MAC 617 tries to compare the panthers to NEO-NAZIS. The panthers were a party who tried to promote empowerment of their community. The panthers were disbanded after the U.S. Government concluded they were a national threat. Even though they started programs to feed the poor, educate their own about alchol and drug abuse. And the NEO-NAZIS what have they done??? But where are the panthers and where are the NAZIS???
Why do you think I disagree with you? I am not new to gangs or bad neighborhoods. I was in the fourth grade the first time I was shot at all because a kid wanted my shoes. I also know about the Black Panthers and understand what they accomplished, what they stood for, and how scared the government was of them at that time period. You mistook what I wrote for some reason, and my guess, it is because your emotions are leading your head.[/quote]