Thanks for taking the time to write that Lonnie, I like a lot of those ideas and your approach with mixing in lower days. I am working with a prep coach, so not really needing to come up with any changes on my own in that regard, but I think I will try that during my next mini cutting phase that I plan myself (probably 6-8) weeks next spring I would imagine. Yeah, I can see how it would be easy to overdo it on the neural charge sessions and kind of defeat the purpose. I definitely have to remind myself to keep my “more is better” mindset in check, especially during prep
CT outlined for the NC sessions that they should be short, definitely 30 minutes or less (maybe even under 20) and that "when you start to feel good… thats when you stop)
Keep on keeping on man, you are going to do great.
A1 - Squats 5x5 @185 (the offically midway between 1 and 2 plates!)
A2 - Bench 5x5 @ 160
B1 - Row 5x5 @ 160
B2 - Diamond push ups 3x10
Today was the first day where I could see the horizon of 5x5 becoming too much at this frequency. I think I’m going to finish out the week at 190 and then drop it to 3x5 for the squats. All sets of 185 were basically easy, but a bit more rest was required and I could feel it getting “heavy” in totality of the 5 sets.
Does anyone put any stock into the “total tonnage” idea? By dropping to 3x5 I’m cutting the tonnage almost in half… Not sure if that makes a damn bit of difference in the grand scheme of things, but Rip brings it up in regards to recovery and stimulus, so perhaps there is merit to it. But as I approach my old 5rm perhaps the tonnage doesnt matter as much as the tonnage-intensity relationship. I dont think it matters THAT much because 135x5x5 is more tonnage than 195 for 3x5… but obviously the stimulus is wildly different.
Starting to drop the assistance work too… This kind of workout really makes you realize what is a “main lift” and what is “assistance”… Fast.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I dont really know too much of your training history Tim, care to elaborate?[/quote]
Sure, with a few modifications, it is copy and pasted from my log elsewhere:
History:
I started lifting “seriously” at age 18. I had worked out for track & field and basketball during high school, but never seriously, in fact, my friends and I would try to ditch practice whenever possible. Senior Year of high school, I had serious body image issues and starved myself from 165 to 139 at my current height of 5 foot 10.5 inches. Needless to say, I looked like a twig.
Therefore, I decided to bulk up. I took everything I knew at the time (which wasn’t much) and threw together a full body routine, done three times per week, one set until failure for all exercises (with the exception of bench, had to bench 3 sets, ha, ha, the typically high-school mind-set). I think I got the idea of 1 set until failure from Dorian Yates, I didn’t know at the time that he warmed up! I never got hurt though, the glory of being young and having malleable joints.
It worked reasonably well, I got back up to 162 by the end of the summer eating tons of food whenever possible. I worked at a pizza shop and got to eat huge strombolis and make my own ice cream blizzards (yes, I gained some fat too!).
After that, I just gradually gained from 162 to about 180 over the next 10 years until I was 28. I read a lot of information over those years. Unfortunately, I spent way too much time reading stuff like Muscle & Fitness and being distracted by pro-bodybuilders routines. I didn’t even know about natural bodybuilding.
Starting around age 28, I began to devour information that was actually helpful and rooted in science. But even still, after all of that learning, I can relate to Socrates better than ever: “As for me, all I know is that I know nothing”
I made the realization at 28, that not only was I still skinny at 182, but I was terribly deficient in strength considering how long I have been training. I realized this had several causes;
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I never built a solid foundation. I have been doing bodybuilding type routines my whole life and never just focused on getting my core lifts up. Yes, I use big compound movements and, yes, I use progression, but the focus was never on just getting stronger and building a good base.
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Gaps in my training. I am a husband and father of two young boys and my training has taken a back seat many times to family life. As my boys get older, it has become easier to train and get into a routine. I donâ??t foresee much getting in the way of my training at this point.
The last 7 years have been a push to get stronger on the basics, add significant mass and of course, strip fat during certain periods.
From 28 to 31, I ran starting strength, Smolov, Coan/Phillipi. Am I strong? No, but I am sure stronger than when I was 28.
Training from age 31 to 35 has mostly been based off of CT’s work and can be found in my prep log.
The progress made in the period from age 28 to 35 compared to what I did from 18 to 28 is remarkable. It makes me wonder what would have been possible had I not wasted age 18 to 28 with crappy training.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Does anyone put any stock into the “total tonnage” idea? By dropping to 3x5 I’m cutting the tonnage almost in half… Not sure if that makes a damn bit of difference in the grand scheme of things, but Rip brings it up in regards to recovery and stimulus, so perhaps there is merit to it. But as I approach my old 5rm perhaps the tonnage doesnt matter as much as the tonnage-intensity relationship. I dont think it matters THAT much because 135x5x5 is more tonnage than 195 for 3x5… but obviously the stimulus is wildly different.
[/quote]
I think tonnage matters for hypertrophy (provided the stimulus is heavy enough) but not as much for strength.
Think about a standard powerlifting peaking program, the volume (tonnage) goes down weekly, but the lifter gets stronger and stronger.
However, for hypertrophy, I think gradually adding tonnage via increase reps, sets, weight or indirectly via density is valuable provided you back off from time to time (something easier said than done)
Thanks Tim… That looks nearly identical to my current situation, age and all.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Does anyone put any stock into the “total tonnage” idea? By dropping to 3x5 I’m cutting the tonnage almost in half… Not sure if that makes a damn bit of difference in the grand scheme of things, but Rip brings it up in regards to recovery and stimulus, so perhaps there is merit to it. But as I approach my old 5rm perhaps the tonnage doesnt matter as much as the tonnage-intensity relationship. I dont think it matters THAT much because 135x5x5 is more tonnage than 195 for 3x5… but obviously the stimulus is wildly different.[/quote]
For me, I’ve noticed that a sort of hybrid “volume in intensity range” seems to be the most useful way to look at it.
With enough volume in the 75-85% range, I get stronger. With even more volume in that same range, I also get bigger. I was also looking at total loads for a bit, but I didn’t find it to be useful enough. Maybe at more elite levels, but not where I am.
Nick Horton, olympic lifting coach, has been looking at what he calls the “Nemesis number” (an offshoot of his Nemesis squat program).
Personally, I don’t think 3x5 will give you enough weekly volume to grow much from it. Not even really to get much stronger… at least not very quickly.
Just some hypotheticals: let’s say you’re doing 3x5 with something like your actual 8RM. That puts you at 75-80%, depending on which formula you use. In a week, you get 45 reps in, in that range. (I’ll usually get something like 60+ reps in at 75%+ in a single session, off the top of my head.)
If we look at it via the “nemesis number” approach, that would put it at 15 reps a session, with a total load of 15*75% divided by 100%. 11.25 (12, if you use 80%). That’s about half of what Nick has seen to work well for strength gains.
Just some food for thought.
Lorez, thanks for stopping by my little corner of the world here. I think the modifying factor is the frequency in this particular program, which might be while the total volume is a tad low. (And also Rippetoes experience which is vast and trustworthy in my opinion)
That was also why I planned to keep the upper lifts to 5x5, as they are done at half the frequency. I’ll keep your thoughts in here in mind though for future programming concerns.
I suppose I really meant it more as an analysis tool.
Looking at it as, “during this period of time, I was doing X reps a week at Y% intensity, and I was getting stronger, but not very big”, but when I was doing “Q reps a week at R% intensity, and S reps at T% intensity, I was getting much bigger”.
For looking at things as “what got me bigger and/or stronger”, that approach has seemed to work much better for me than looking at total load or rep ranges. It also seems to be a good way to look at programs like 5x5, 5/3/1, Sheiko, Smolov, layer system, etc.
That’s all I really meant. It would probably be best to say… for me… 3x5, 3x a week, isn’t enough to make much of a dent for squats or bench. (Not sure about deads; still figuring that out.) Could work well for you though.
Anyway, I’m following along. Looking forward to seeing how things work out for you.
That makes a lot if sense, and is more clear to me put that way. Thanks.
I will definitely be keeping my eye on that now
Today felt really good on everything, it was actually the easiest session of the week, go figure. I got like 9 to 9.5 hours of sleep finally so I think I finally had some good recovery from all the building fatigue. Looking to hit a 60-90 minute nap later too… Love days off.
A1 - Squats 5x5 @ 190 (All sets easy and felt “solid” every rep)
A2 - Pull ups x 12,11,10 (going to start doing weight here I think and alternate between things like 5x5, 8x3, 4x6, 3x12 etc…)
B1 - Military, 5x5 @ 115 - Each set got easier as I got more into the groove
B2 - Dead lifts, work up to 1x5 @ 265 - Felt solid. I did the “Olympic Deadlift” Amit Sapir wrote about this week for my warm up sets, felt like it activated me a little better
Farmers walks
Sleep was crap on the weekend and I had to push up my workout a day to accommodate an eye procedure I’m having done on Friday. Basically rolled out of bed into the squat rack.
Squats felt kinda heavy-ish, but were easily doable, but I dropped to 3x5 this week for them
A1 - Squats 3x5 @ 195
A2 - Bench 5x5 @ 165
B1 - Rows 5x5@ 165
B2 - Diamond Pushups
Skipped cardio/abs because of the lack of sleep, wanted to give as many “recovery points” as I could to the main lifts.
going to try and do some stuff at home before I head out the door to the gym, just like a few sets of bodyweight squats or something to get the joints warmed up and knees used to moving
Week 5 day 2
AM - 1.5 mile walk with 60 pound vest ( I do these like 3x a week but dont log them, did it today and figured what the hell)
PM Workout
A1 - Squats 3x5 @ 200 (medium difficulty, better than last workout though)
A2 - Pullup 5’s… Weight = BW/+10/+15/+20/+20/+20 (trying to up the weight here and only do 5 reps sets)
B - Press 5x5 @ 120 (Last rep was Haaard, I hate to talk down to myself but unless some serious super-compensation occurs next Pressing workout might not get all reps. Gonna try like an SOB though)
C - Dead lift 1x5 @ 270 (very easy, easier than last sessions 265 by a good margin… perhaps the reduced squatting volume?)
Farmers: 3x10 with 55lbs each hand. Used straps and they felt much better. Was able to use more weight AND do more laps. Granted the grip didnt get quite as much work, but F it, total body effect was much greater.
Gen Notes:
- Even though I’m only doing 3x5 on the squats, some of my warm up sets are now what my working weight was even 1-2 weeks ago, so in a way there is still some volume happening
-Got a decent amount of sleep and a nap in before I went to the gym. I was able to do a PM session and decided to take advantage of it, felt better overall.
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Going to try and push my weight up to 190 - 195 during this training cycle. Who knows, maybe even 200 if I can not be fat about it. I have cut down to super lean levels so many times now that I have 100% confidence in my methods and feel no pressure anymore to be super lean because I know I can get it back very quickly… At least thats my mentality now. I’m more tired of being weak than I will be not being six pack lean I think at this point in the game.
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Naps are amazing. Use them if you arent and can fit them in. F’ing life savers.
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Gym was a bit more crowded on the stations I use so I couldn’t quite get the circuit style strength work in today. Workout took a bit longer because of it, but oh well.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I have cut down to super lean levels so many times now that I have 100% confidence in my methods and feel no pressure anymore to be super lean because I know I can get it back very quickly… At least thats my mentality now. I’m more tired of being weak than I will be not being six pack lean I think at this point in the game.
[/quote]
I need to do this, I am a freak about getting soft. Sort of a mental health problem.
More power to you if you can do it.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
- Naps are amazing. Use them if you arent and can fit them in. F’ing life savers.
[/quote]
Sounds delightful, wish I had time!
Tim, I feel you man. Plus it appears that whoever is deciding where fat is distributed on my body is playing a fun game with me because my arms/shoulders/chest will stay relatively lean but my love handles just PILE up on the fat. Very cruel joke indeed.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Tim, I feel you man. Plus it appears that whoever is deciding where fat is distributed on my body is playing a fun game with me because my arms/shoulders/chest will stay relatively lean but my love handles just PILE up on the fat. Very cruel joke indeed.[/quote]
For me, it’s calves and quads. Not as cruel maybe, but I fear that I will have to work really hard to ever get feathered quads.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Tim, I feel you man. Plus it appears that whoever is deciding where fat is distributed on my body is playing a fun game with me because my arms/shoulders/chest will stay relatively lean but my love handles just PILE up on the fat. Very cruel joke indeed.[/quote]
That can be a blessing too though Lonnie, because you’ll still look good in a cutoff or tee shirt year round even when you’re in gain mode like you’re planning on now 
Pwolves - It does have that upside to it for sure.
Week 5 Day 3
A1 - Squat 5x5 @ 205 ( did 5x5 just to make sure I could and wasnt pussing out by doing 3x5 because I wouldn’t be able to hit it. Also, I have 3 full days off after this as I pushed everything up to accommodate my LASIK procedure tomorrow)
A2 - Bench 5x5 @ 170 ( Easy, although the shitty bench at my gym has these stupidly low weight catches that I hit on one of the reps, even with that it was easy so thats good)
B1 - Rows 5x5 @ 170
B2 - Diamond push ups on knees for high reps (elbows were feeling it, so I took it light)
B3 - Ab wheel rollouts
C - BB Curls -100 reps with the bar without setting bar down and minimal rest
Good session, although I think I’m starting to feel all the squatting volume and linear progression catch up to my hips/knees. Might be a form issue as I felt pretty solid today, but I’m thinking I might do 5x5 again but put a 2x5 day in the middle a la Rippetoes Advanced Novice program… Still a linear progression, but has an “easier” day in the middle, so intead of 6 increases in 2 weeks in only 4 increases. Any wisdom here would be appreciated, although I really think this is the way to go as of right now.
Week 6 day 1
A1 - Squat 3x5 @ 210
A2 - Pull up 5’s @ BW, 20, 25, 30, 30, 30, 30
B1 - Mil Press 5x5 @ 125
B2 - Dead lift up to 275x5
Had a 3 day “weekend” because I had LASIK on Friday and was basically instructed to take it easy all weekend, so I barely did anything except sleep a ton. I must have been zonked because I fell asleep watching TV on Sunday, which never ever happens to me, much less at 4 in the afternoon
As far as the workout, everything felt really good except the deads which were a bit heavy, I actually switched to Touch-n-Go on the fly which makes me want to redo this weight with complete stops next time, own it before I move on. I was thinking I might not get the 5x5 on the military press, but it was actually quite doable. It has turned into a SLIGHT push press however, as I feel the bottom 1inch or 2 is harder on the shoulder joint than I want to be at this point.
I am thinking I miiiight do this squat workout twice, and the next one twice, which would put me at 225 next friday, which I want to hit for 5x5 and have the whole weekend to recover. In the grand scheme it wont make a difference, but that was my goal when I started this so I might as well do everything I can to set myself up for success there.
Really liking this program so far, and even more so now that I’m doing the strength work in a super set fashion.
Night Sesh: Had to cut the conditioning out of the AM session because I forgot my fake tears and my eyes were getting irritated and vision was getting blurry… I’m hardcore but I dont wanna go blind for some farmers walks so I cut it and went home early to tear up.
Just did a medley of conditioning stuff
Rower, Farmers Walks, Waiter Walks (one DB over head, one hanging at side), Elliptical, bike
Feeling fat after the 4 days of no exercise so this was a welcome addition to the mix this week.