Long Shutdown, Tripto+SERM PCT?

Pharma
41

DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control.

42

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.

43

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.[/quote]

Ya there may have been a few things I could’ve done a bit differently. However, I’m not sure nolva can do much for intratesticular estrogen either. Anyways, I’m now on day 3 off the HCG still running about .125mg adex ED, and interestingly enough testicular hanging and size seems to be improved again. Will keep running adex only for a cpl more days then start on nolva with 100mcg pin of trip later on same day.

44

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.[/quote]

Ya there may have been a few things I could’ve done a bit differently. However, I’m not sure nolva can do much for intratesticular estrogen either. Anyways, I’m now on day 3 off the HCG still running about .125mg adex ED, and interestingly enough testicular hanging and size seems to be improved again. Will keep running adex only for a cpl more days then start on nolva with 100mcg pin of trip later on same day.
[/quote]

Intratesticular estrogen? Seriously?

45

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.[/quote]

Ya there may have been a few things I could’ve done a bit differently. However, I’m not sure nolva can do much for intratesticular estrogen either. Anyways, I’m now on day 3 off the HCG still running about .125mg adex ED, and interestingly enough testicular hanging and size seems to be improved again. Will keep running adex only for a cpl more days then start on nolva with 100mcg pin of trip later on same day.
[/quote]

Intratesticular estrogen? Seriously?
[/quote]

Aromatization, sorry - aromatization to estrogen, yes. My bad, thought that was clear. Its well accepted that arimidex cannot control intratesticular aromatization. I could be wrong but I dont see how nolvadex would provide any benefit there either as its function is estrogen blocking rather than having any effect on T conversion to E.

46

DAY 38

  • Yesterday I shot 100mcg triptorelin subQ, reconstituted in 1 mL of bac water. Pinned tripto 5 hrs after first dose of 40 mg nolvadex. I’ve decided to run my first wk of nolva at 40mg ED and then drop down to 20mg

  • Hanging of testes was much more normal throughout the rest of the day, although had also been reasonably good on just adex after cutting HCG. Not much other observations other than I’ve felt a little bit light headed / dizzy at a few times since yesterday.

Did have morning wood waking up this AM, so that is a good sign as it has been inconsistent and often absent most of the time since I’ve been shutdown.

Today, day after tripto and second day of nolva hanging and size seems pretty good and marginally improved. Semen volume may be slightly increased and erection quality is decent, no huge libido increase yet though - I am aware nolva may interfere w/ this.

Will continue to report back

47

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.[/quote]

Ya there may have been a few things I could’ve done a bit differently. However, I’m not sure nolva can do much for intratesticular estrogen either. Anyways, I’m now on day 3 off the HCG still running about .125mg adex ED, and interestingly enough testicular hanging and size seems to be improved again. Will keep running adex only for a cpl more days then start on nolva with 100mcg pin of trip later on same day.
[/quote]

Intratesticular estrogen? Seriously?
[/quote]

Aromatization, sorry - aromatization to estrogen, yes. My bad, thought that was clear. Its well accepted that arimidex cannot control intratesticular aromatization. I could be wrong but I dont see how nolvadex would provide any benefit there either as its function is estrogen blocking rather than having any effect on T conversion to E.[/quote]

Please provide your references that refer to intratesticular estrogen.

48

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.[/quote]

Ya there may have been a few things I could’ve done a bit differently. However, I’m not sure nolva can do much for intratesticular estrogen either. Anyways, I’m now on day 3 off the HCG still running about .125mg adex ED, and interestingly enough testicular hanging and size seems to be improved again. Will keep running adex only for a cpl more days then start on nolva with 100mcg pin of trip later on same day.
[/quote]

Intratesticular estrogen? Seriously?
[/quote]

Aromatization, sorry - aromatization to estrogen, yes. My bad, thought that was clear. Its well accepted that arimidex cannot control intratesticular aromatization. I could be wrong but I dont see how nolvadex would provide any benefit there either as its function is estrogen blocking rather than having any effect on T conversion to E.[/quote]

Please provide your references that refer to intratesticular estrogen.
[/quote]

I’m sorry but what are you even asking? If you’re suggesting that studies dont exist which evidence that aromatization of testosterone to estrogen does occur within the testicles then that is absurd. I could probably link to at least 5 with a quick google search but I really dont see the point because this is generally well known. It sounds like this is what you are suggesting.

If you’re asking me to prove that arimidex is considered to be inefficient at controlling intratesticular aromatization then you may be in a better position to challenge me because I have personally not read over actual studies dealing with this. However, I have heard again and again that this is the case, so I’m sure you can forgive me if I simply took it to likely be true and packed it away for later investigation.

Please clarify your position.

49

DAY 41 - Fifth day after trip pin and beginning nolvadex.

Adjusted dosing two days ago to 60mg nolva ED, switched from taking 40mg upon waking to also taking 20mg before bed - then to 20mg on waking and 40mg before bed and am continuing at this dose for at least a week. Response has been excellent from what I have noticed:

Testes have filled out noticeably and are mostly hanging well. Semen volume is increased, erection quality is generally improved, getting morning wood to at least some extent pretty much every day now. Libido is inconsistent but slightly improved. More energy, improved recovery from workouts - decent strength return all things considered. Transient but noteworthy improvements in mental clarity and focus - motivation and drive for life turning back on.

Seems to me T is up and LH certainly is as well. No idea whether this is more due to the trip or nolva or the combo of the two, but I can definitely say these are the best improvements I’ve experienced so far - something is clearly doing its job.

Any thoughts on nolva dosing? I read a good study abstract where clomid (similar half life to nolva) was used, dosed at 50mg 3x/day to start and followed by 4 months at 25-50mg ED. Result was complete reversal of original condition of isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. DEFINE_ME

50

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:
DAY 34 - Cut HCG 2 days ago, was starting to feel I was getting diminishing effects. Around day 22 or so it felt like I was finally receiving maximal benefits from the 250iu ED dosing - felt good, boys were hanging and filled out, lots of blood flow in that region in general, libido way up.

These effects only lasted about two days or so and then started to become less noticeable. A few days later I noticed I was feeling oddly emotional - sounds to me like E had come up. I took an extra .25mg dose of adex and the feeling went away over the course of the day. I then upped adex dosing to a .125mg ED schedule and no more emotional feelings but the re-enlarging of my testes remained less consistent than it had been, and no more killer libido.

It seems clear that I had some negative impact from E, maybe largely from intratesticular aromatization which could not be controlled w/ the adex. Rather than let this go on, I cut my losses and will be starting nolvadex and pinning my triptorelin as soon as the HCG is cleared. I’m thinking I should be good to go by monday having pinned my last HCG tuesday of this past week. Hopefully between the trip and the nolva I can regain some of the positive testicular response I was having to the HCG before E got beyond my control. [/quote]

If you’d started the nolva before the HCG run as advised, that wouldn’t have happened.[/quote]

Ya there may have been a few things I could’ve done a bit differently. However, I’m not sure nolva can do much for intratesticular estrogen either. Anyways, I’m now on day 3 off the HCG still running about .125mg adex ED, and interestingly enough testicular hanging and size seems to be improved again. Will keep running adex only for a cpl more days then start on nolva with 100mcg pin of trip later on same day.
[/quote]

Intratesticular estrogen? Seriously?
[/quote]

Aromatization, sorry - aromatization to estrogen, yes. My bad, thought that was clear. Its well accepted that arimidex cannot control intratesticular aromatization. I could be wrong but I dont see how nolvadex would provide any benefit there either as its function is estrogen blocking rather than having any effect on T conversion to E.[/quote]

Please provide your references that refer to intratesticular estrogen.
[/quote]

I’m sorry but what are you even asking? If you’re suggesting that studies dont exist which evidence that aromatization of testosterone to estrogen does occur within the testicles then that is absurd. I could probably link to at least 5 with a quick google search but I really dont see the point because this is generally well known. It sounds like this is what you are suggesting.

If you’re asking me to prove that arimidex is considered to be inefficient at controlling intratesticular aromatization then you may be in a better position to challenge me because I have personally not read over actual studies dealing with this. However, I have heard again and again that this is the case, so I’m sure you can forgive me if I simply took it to likely be true and packed it away for later investigation.

Please clarify your position.[/quote]

Aromatisation does indeed occur in the testicles. It also occurs in the brain, skin, fat deposits and just about every other tissue in the body.

Of course the latter is what I’m asking for, because this sounds like bro-science to me unless anyone cares to chime in and prove otherwise.

51

Ok so haven’t been on in a while as I got super busy with work and didn’t have time for all the side banter, but here’s a quick update:

Nolva Tripto PCT didn’t do much for me in the long run. Initial improvements were obvious for the first two weeks after trip pin, but tapered off after that - seems like it was just the initial tripto flare that has been discussed. I have suspicions the nolva was bunk and things might’ve gone better otherwise.

Since then I got a hold of some UGL clomid which I’ve been taking 50mg every 8 hours trying to closely model this study DEFINE_ME.

After just a few days of this regimen I started to notice slight increases in libido and energy and for the first time in a long time I could see the veins popping up on my hands. 5 days in I had great increase in libido. During this time my testes started to hang again and improved in size. This improvement seemed to dissipate a little bit after the first week or two but remained better than pre-clomid. I began using short spurts of double dosing (100mg every 8 hrs) for one or two days at a time then returning to the 150mg a day. Each time I’ve done this about 3 days after things are much improved again and remain so on the regular dosing for at least a week.

No idea if my HPTA will kick in consistently as a result of this, or if it’s just going to turn off again as soon as there’s no clomid stimulating it.

TRT is definitely a consideration but my concern is the costs for test + ancillaries as well as the difficulty getting it in Canada. I also want to have children and I think whatever fertility I still have might be wiped out by going on exogenous Test. Obviously also if there’s still a chance of restoring my HPTA to function naturally, I would much prefer to go that route.

If anyone out there has any relevant experience or knowledge on any of this I’d be happy to hear it. If anyone knows, what are the chances of being able to conceive a child while on TRT?

52

Rats, I had high hopes for running trip after my cycle. Did you happen to get a couple bloods done around the trip shot for reference?

Thank you for posting this by the way this drew out a lot of interesting discussion and is a very informative thread.

Mac

53

No problem, I was hoping to benefit others as much as possible. Thanks for your post Mac.

To answer your question, no I didn’t get bloods done when I shot the trip. Looking to get some done in the next few weeks though and see exactly how effective my SERM run has been so far. As far as the trip goes though, I know it did something as I definitely had increase in libido, teste size and hanging, etc. unfortunately it didn’t seem to kick start my pituitary as I’d hoped and I think I was just experiencing the initial flare from GnRH stimulation. To be honest though, the trip may not have been very potent, the nolva I got from the supposedly legit source was bunk as hell.

If I were to make a recommendation based on my experience, I’d say for this kind of thing your best bet is to do a standard SERM PCT albeit maybe at a high dose. IF that proves ineffective then might as well give some trip a shot with some more SERM. Obviously if you’re very well educated on how to use trip then you might as well use it, but for those who aren’t clear on all the details and interactions it is much easier and possibly safer to just run a SERM.

At this point I am a bit worried that the trip may have shut me down worse (would make sense if I did have a lowered set point for negative E inhibition - like I’ve suspected). Also, I don’t think I used the HCG effectively, it was such a fine balance between not using enough to get an effect and possibly using too much and frying my nuts beyond repair.

54

Thanks again for the thoughtful post.

All of the information I have seen about trip that contains blood work shows the same kinda flare you experienced and then levels returning to low end normal within a couple weeks to a month after 20/20/20/20 Nolva PCT. A couple were confounded because of adding to much clomid which could overload the HPTA or the lack of HCG during cycle. Regardless, results containing blood work have been disappointing to say the least. This is a shame I had such high hopes for the trip.

I think I will heed your advice and just keep it in the box of tricks this PCT and wait until more information comes out on it. Fools gold for now I suppose, it really did sound to good to be true, instant recovery… Guess you always gotta pay your dues when you come off.

I wish you the best of luck on your road to recovery. Keep hitting the books and experimenting and you will find something to get you back to where you need to be.

Mac