Living In a Muslim Country

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]erik-the-red wrote:
I’ve never been to a majority-Muslim country, but what about Turkey? The separation of church and state is very strong there, much stronger than it is in the U.S.[/quote]

I was thinking of Turkey also. They are a little more moderate.[/quote]

You haven’t been paying much attention to Turkey lately, since Erdogan’s election? Christian missionaries were tortured for several hours and killed a few years ago. The government gave assent to it, though it did catch the perps.

A recent plot to wipe out Anatolia’s Christians was just uncovered:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/report-turkish-military-had-plan-to-terrorize-eliminate-remaining-christians.html

This is pretty routine in Egypt, btw:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/egypt-christians-refuse-to-reopen-stores-after-muslims-riot.html

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]erik-the-red wrote:
I’ve never been to a majority-Muslim country, but what about Turkey? The separation of church and state is very strong there, much stronger than it is in the U.S.[/quote]

I was thinking of Turkey also. They are a little more moderate.[/quote]

That’s true. Just don’t be Armenian.
[/quote]

Definitely don’t be an Armenian Christian.

[quote]pat wrote:
I’d rather be dead than live in a islamic theocracy. But that’s just me. I am not in favor of any theocracies though. Nor, communism, socialism, facism, dictatorship, or tribal hierarchy. [/quote]

what kind of place do you think America is? All that you mentioned above just about, maybe u just don’t see it. I have lived in the middle-east before, and there is freedom of religion. Half of you idiots in here are all talking out of your asses, and have never stepped foot in the middle-east. Palestinians and Jews lived together in peace for years until Israel decided to establish a state there in 1948. Christians and Muslims in Lebanon have lived in peace, and continue to live in peace.

Islam is a religion of peace, not violence or hatred. We are fighting wars all over and nothing has been accomplished in almost 10 fucking years. Wake up!! Its all political propaganda bullshit the govt. keeps feeding you idiots so they can continue to use 51% of your tax money to give specifically for Military Aid. Stripping the middle-east of all its natural resources so they can make money. Open your eyes people. Appearance and Reality or two very different things.

And for the record, i have lived in several parts of the middle-east, and visited tons of countries, so yes i can speak off of truth, and what i have seen. Everything i stated above is FACT. Don’t believe me? Look it all up. Half you are too ignorant, or too caught up in your own lives to really go out and seek some truth or knowledge.

By the way, why did Mohammed rob that caravan and kill everyone in it again?

Being the Prophet of the Religion of Peace and all.

Please advise on the peacefulness and morality of his action there, or where Islam condemns his specific action of killing Jews to obtain their goods as wrong. Thanx.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
By the way, why did Mohammed rob that caravan and kill everyone in it again? [/quote]

Which caravan would that be?

Yes, there are so many murders and caravans robbed that it would be hard for anyone to keep track of them. I was referring to one specific caravan that I recalled from the Koran, but you’re right, there are any number of caravans that he stole from and any number of people killed so that he could have their goods.

Or that he had killed for other reasons, such as writing something he didn’t like about his “Religion of Peace” armed campaigns.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Yes, there are so many murders and caravans robbed that it would be hard for anyone to keep track of them. I was referring to one specific caravan that I recalled from the Koran, but you’re right, there are any number of caravans that he stole from and any number of people killed so that he could have their goods.

Or that he had killed for other reasons, such as writing something he didn’t like about his “Religion of Peace” military campaigns.[/quote]

First of all its The Quran, not the Koran. And secondly, i have no clue what the hell you are referring too. There is nothing in The Quran with this kind of faulty info. Surah/Line info. or its a lie.

Spelling flame.

And FYI, the Koran that I read was so labelled.

It was the common spelling at the time, and still is not uncommon.

Feel proud of your spelling flame.

And feel proud of your ignorance of Muslim history and of the Koran.

Or, if it’s not ignorance and you are actually attempting to claim that Mohammed was not a caravan raider and killer of many people including in the situations I stated, feel proud of your lies. (Surely you cannot be offended by that wording, since you yourself introduced the “lie” word to the discussion.) Because it is fact.

Maybe it’s fact you don’t want to acknowledge – rather obviously that’s the case – but it is fact.

I don’t still own a Koran and at the moment don’t have the passage in question. But a moment’s effort turned this up from Tabari, certainly an authoritative source:

"Tabari IX:122 “Muhammad sent Uyaynah to raid The Banu Anbar. They killed some people and took others captive. Asma was one of the women taken prisoner.”

Asma was, by the way, murdered after that, as I recall. For having written remarks about Mohammed’s “peaceful” armed campaigns that he didn’t like, and with Mohammed praising her murder afterwards.

So please don’t try to pretend that the history of stealing from caravans, killing, and convert-or-die was not Mohammed’s way. It is exactly what he did.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]NDucedStrength98 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I’d rather be dead than live in a islamic theocracy. But that’s just me. I am not in favor of any theocracies though. Nor, communism, socialism, facism, dictatorship, or tribal hierarchy. [/quote]

what kind of place do you think America is? All that you mentioned above just about, maybe u just don’t see it. I have lived in the middle-east before, and there is freedom of religion. Half of you idiots in here are all talking out of your asses, and have never stepped foot in the middle-east. Palestinians and Jews lived together in peace for years until Israel decided to establish a state there in 1948. Christians and Muslims in Lebanon have lived in peace, and continue to live in peace.

Islam is a religion of peace, not violence or hatred. We are fighting wars all over and nothing has been accomplished in almost 10 fucking years. Wake up!! Its all political propaganda bullshit the govt. keeps feeding you idiots so they can continue to use 51% of your tax money to give specifically for Military Aid. Stripping the middle-east of all its natural resources so they can make money. Open your eyes people. Appearance and Reality or two very different things.

And for the record, i have lived in several parts of the middle-east, and visited tons of countries, so yes i can speak off of truth, and what i have seen. Everything i stated above is FACT. Don’t believe me? Look it all up. Half you are too ignorant, or too caught up in your own lives to really go out and seek some truth or knowledge. [/quote]

Wow.

How wrong I’ve been![/quote]

Yes, and among those years (see boldface above) were not 1929 and 1936.

[i]In Hebron in the early 1920s, periods of Arab harassment, involving cursing on the street, intimidation, various beatings, rocks through windows, and disturbances at the Cave of the Patriarchs, would disturb what was, by some accounts, an otherwise amicable relationship between the Hebron Jewish and Arab communities[7], notwithstanding a strong tradition of hostility to Jews[8]. In one such period the Jewish community registered several complaints with the British police, saying that not enough was being done to protect them. The Jews attributed some of the trouble to the Arab nationalist Muslim-Christian Association’s activities, which included the spread of anti-Jewish songs and other incitement to hatred and violence.[6]

On 15 August 1929, several hundred members of Joseph Klausner’s Committee for the Western Wall, among them members of Vladimir Jabotinsky’s Revisionist Zionism movement Betar youth organisation, under the leadership of Jeremiah Halpern, assembled at the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting “the Wall is ours”.[6] They raised the Jewish national flag and sang the ballad of yearning for freedom and self-determination, “Hatikvah” (“The Hope”), which is the Israeli national anthem. The authorities had been notified of the march in advance and provided a heavy police escort in a bid to prevent any incidents. Rumours spread that the youths had attacked local residents and had cursed the name of Muhammad.[9][10][11] In response the day after the Supreme Muslim Council marched to the Wall and proceeded to beat Jewish worshippers and burn Torah scrolls, prayer books[12] and supplicatory notes left in the Wall’s cracks, and returned to attack the next day.[6] The riots continued, and the next day a young Sephardic Jew was stabbed in the Bukharan Quarter, and died the following day.[13] His funeral was turned into a political demonstration, and was suppressed by the same force that had been employed in the initial incident. A late-night meeting initiated the following day by the Jewish leadership, at which acting high commissioner Harry Luke, Jamal al-Husayni, and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi were present, failed to produce a call for an end to the violence.[6]

On August 20, 1929, after Arab attacks in Jerusalem, Haganah leaders proposed to intervene and provide defense for the 750 Jews of the Yishuv in Hebron, or to help them evacuate. However, the leaders of the Hebron community declined these offers, insisting that they trusted the A’yan (Arab notables) to protect them.

The following Friday, 23 August, inflamed by rumors that Jews were planning to attack al-Aqsa Mosque, Arabs started to attack Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem. The rumors and subsequent violence quickly spread to other parts of British Mandate of Palestine, with the murders occurring in Hebron and Safed. Other assaults took place in Motza, Kfar Uriyah, and Tel Aviv.
[edit] Hebron massacre

All officials in the Hebron civil administration were Arabs. Of its 40 policemen, only one was Jewish. Raymond Cafferata, the Assistant District Superintendent of the Palestine Police Force, had at his command 18 mounted policemen and 15 on foot, of whom 11 were elderly men in poor physical condition. On the early afternoon of Friday, August 23, upon hearing from car-drivers of fighting in Jerusalem, Cafferata deployed special pickets to report any unusual movement from the city and issued a request to headquarters for reinforcements. Intending to travel to Jerusalem, a crowd of 700 gathered at the city’s central bus station, and one man gave a speech. Cafferata addressed the crowd, trying to calm them by denying anything happened in Jerusalem. He then took eight mounted officers to patrol the Jewish homes, where he encountered the city’s Rabbi, Yaakov Yosef Slonim Dwek. The Rabbi asked him for protection, while he came under a hail of stones from an Arab crowd. Cafferata told him and other Jews he came across to return to stay in their homes. After the Rabbi had obliged, Cafferata tried to disperse the crowd using clubs.[6]

At 4:00 pm, an Arab crowd began gathering outside the Hebron Yeshiva and throwing stones through the windows. Only two people were inside, a student and the sexton. Upon being hit, the student tried to leave, only to find himself facing the Arab crowd, who grabbed him and stabbed him to death; the sexton survived by hiding in a well. Some hours later a group of mukhtars came to Cafferata. Cafferata attempted to get the mukhtars to assume responsibility for law and order, and asked for reinforcements. Some hours later a group of regional mukhtars came to Cafferata, and they relayed that the Mufti had told them to take action or be fined due to the ‘Jewish slaughter of Arabs’ in Jerusalem. Raymond Cafferata promised that all was well and bid them return to their villages and stay there. He slept in his office that night.[6]

Early the following Saturday morning, a crowd armed with staves and axes appeared in the streets and attacked and killed two Jewish boys, one stoned to death and the other stabbed. Cafferata shot two of the attacking Arabs and emptied his revolver into the crowd, but his saddle slipped and he fell to the ground, whereupon the crowd began attacking every Jewish house. Cafferata instructed his men to fetch rifles and to open fire, which they did, dispersing a portion of the crowd, but some of the remaining rioters, shouting “on to the Ghetto”, managed to break through the pickets. Cafferata continued shooting, hitting many of the rioters, but his efforts were in vain; repeated calls for reinforcements from Jerusalem, Jaffa and Gaza did not produce help in time. Both Jewish and Arab businesses in the Bazaar were looted.[14] A consignment of police was sent from Jerusalem but was delayed by other violence on the way to Hebron and arrived hours too late. This later became the source of considerable acrimony.[6]

Cafferata testified to the Commission of Enquiry in Jerusalem on 7 November. The Times reported Cafferata’s evidence to the Commission that “until the arrival of British police it was impossible to do more than keep the living Jews in the hospital safe and the streets clear [because he] was the only British officer or man in Hebron, a town of 20,000”.[15]

Many Jews survived by hiding in their Arab neighbors’ houses, while others survived by taking refuge in the British police station at Beit Romano on the outskirts of the city. The surviving Jews were later evacuated to Jerusalem. One third of the killed were students of the Hebron yeshiva. After the massacre, the remainder of the yeshiva was also moved to Jerusalem.[6]

On September 1, Sir John Chancellor condemned:-

'the atrocious acts committed by bodies of ruthless and bloodthirsty evildoers... murders perpetrated upon defenceless members of the Jewish population... accompanied by acts of unspeakable savagery.'

[/i]

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
"Tabari IX:122 “Muhammad sent Uyaynah to raid The Banu Anbar. They killed some people and took others captive. Asma was one of the women taken prisoner.” [/quote]

Tabari never wrote such a thing. Stop making stuff up!

Lixy, are you insane?

Go look it up.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Lixy, are you insane?

Go look it up.[/quote]

You’re the one who’s insane! You think a billion and a half people would look up to a caravan raiding murderer.

There’s something wrong with your head.

The insanity is on the end of those who do so.

Or – more commonly and as appears to be the case in your instance – lack of knowledge of the books of your own religion.

Seriously, Lixy: You have some work to do here. If you don’t want to be looking up to a caravan-raiding murderer, you need to put in some study to learn the actions of Mohammed, beyond whatever that others have directed you to look at or you have happened to do so far, judging from the fact that you seem to consider this a complete surprise and supposedly not possibly true. The source books of your own religion will completely suffice to verify that it is as I have said.

As Frau Farbissina would shriek, “LIES! ALL LIES!!!

:wink:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The insanity is on the end of those who do so.

Or – more commonly and as appears to be the case in your instance – lack of knowledge of the books of your own religion.

Seriously, Lixy: You have some work to do here. If you don’t want to be looking up to a caravan-raiding murderer, you need to put in some study to learn the actions of Mohammed, beyond whatever that others have directed you to look at or you have happened to do so far, judging from the fact that you seem to consider this a complete surprise and supposedly not possibly true. The source books of your own religion will completely suffice to verify that it is as I have said.[/quote]

This is illuminating:
http://www.google.com/search?q=sirat+rasul+allah+%2Bmohammed+%2Bcaravan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Some texts from Ishaq, the earliest surviving biography of the sirat, for which your link searches:

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b bin Al Ashraf’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. When he came out to us, we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause.”

Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.’”

Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in your belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”

Ishaq:551 “Another victim was Huwayrith. He used to insult Muhammad in Mecca. Huwayrith was put to death by Ali. The Messenger ordered Miqyas’ assassination only because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam.”

Ishaq:597 “When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta’if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized him. The poets who were left, fled in all directions.”

Ishaq:308/Tabari VII:65 “When the Apostle was in Safra, Nadr was assassinated. When Muhammad reached Irq al-Zabyah he killed Uqbah. When the Prophet ordered him to be killed, Uqbah said, ‘Who will look after my children, Muhammad?’ ‘Hellfire,’ the Apostle replied, and he was killed.”

Ishaq: 676 “(To Muhammed’s companions) ‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

As I wrote previously, Islam’s own source books thoroughly verify what I have said. Contrary to Lixy’s statements, I am not making these things up. These, and more, are the recorded deeds and words of Mohammed.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Or http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Root_of_Terrorism_a_la_Islamic_style [/quote]

Interesting.

The Hadith are apocryphal texts made up a couple hundred years after the death of Muhammad by followers that succeeded him in jihad campaigns. It is likely that many of the elements of shari’ah were made up as new infidels were found and conquered and new ways of subduing them were needed. Notice that Abu Obaid Al-Qasim Ibn Sallam (774 - 837) authored “The Book of Revenue” (Kitab Al-Amwal) about the same time and on the same topics, to wit, extraction of jizya from infidels

Of course, the authors of the apocryphal ahadith came from the same rotten root and branch that is Muhammad, so their ideas lined up with his and that is why the Hadith is used to give historical context to the Qur’an.

From your link:

Of course. Per Surah 3:23, Muhammad is an “excellent model of conduct.” Considering all of the terrible things he did, that means that “good” is “bad” in Islam from any other perspective but that of a Muslim.

Well, this is just like today. Whenever some infidel states the obvious about Islam, someone like lixy comes along calling for the death of the infidel making the statement, just as Muhammad did. So much of the behavior we see from Muslims is actually the behavior of Muhammad himself. But liberals refuse to believe this.