Limited Contraceptives=Abortion?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]kamui wrote:

Ok.
Developped regions’s rate : 39
Developping regions’s rate : 34

Chile has the highest ratio of abortion amongst the countries where abortion is illegal : 35
Belas has the Highest ratio of abortions amongst the countries where abortion is legal : 61

[/quote]

The updated version of the link with numbers from 2003 don’t agree with you:

â?¢ Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

So once again, what is your explanation for why this is so?

62

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
FTR, I think sex between unmarried teens is a stupid idea, generally speaking, and to be discouraged.

There are a lot of things in this world that ARE appropriate for adults that are NOT appropriate for children. Do I have to cite examples or are you bright enough to figure this one out for yourself, IC?[/quote]

I’m disappointed to hear your feel this way. [/quote]

Your disappointment illustrates the shallow depth that your intellect must operate in on this subject.

Surely then you are “for” the following from a 16 year old?

Alcohol and recreational drug consumption

Military enlistment

Driving privileges that are comparable with adults

Uninhibited entry to bars, strip clubs and nightclubs

Signing contracts

Etc.

Etc.

[/quote]

lol. This is a perfect example of the crisis thinking that the article on Dutch parents pointed out Americans develop toward teen sex.

"“In the Netherlands, thereÃ?¢??s the belief that young people are capable of recognizing when theyÃ?¢??re ready and self-regulating as opposed to the notion that they have raging hormones that are out of control. ThereÃ?¢??s the belief that young people can fall in love and that their sexuality is anchored in relationships so it becomes easier to accept and normalize relationships from about 16 to 17 onwards.”

“The religious right organized, and sexuality, especially teen sexuality, became a political issue.” Our country has NO faith in self-regulation when it comes to so many things, hence stupid fears, laws, etc.[/quote]

Those Dutch folks certainly have a right to their opinion even it’s not anchored in fact.[/quote]

The point is that with this opinion, they still manage to kick our asses at reducing abortion. How the heck are they doing it Push?

63

[quote]kamui wrote:

that’s precisely why it should be encouraged.
Beastiality is THE perfect birth control.
Cheap. No hormonal side effect. No failure. And it’s more fun (and as such more reliable) than abstinence.

[/quote]

If that’s your method for preventing abortion in your home, I’m nothing but amused.

66

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Ok.
Developped regions’s rate : 39
Developping regions’s rate : 34

Chile has the highest ratio of abortion amongst the countries where abortion is illegal : 35
Belas has the Highest ratio of abortions amongst the countries where abortion is legal : 61

[/quote]

The updated version of the link with numbers from 2003 don’t agree with you:

�¢?�¢ Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

So once again, what is your explanation for why this is so?[/quote]

You know the difference between a rate and a ratio, right ?
Countries where abortion is stil illegal (often developping countries) have an higher number and rate of pregnancies. Hence the higher rate (but usually lower ratio)of abortions .

From your own link :

[quote]â?¢ Of the 23 million pregnancies that occur in developed countries, more than 40% are unintended, and 28% end in induced abortion. [1, 8, 9, 10]

â?¢ Of the 185 million pregnancies that occur in developing countries, 40% are unintended, and 19% end in induced abortion. [15][/quote]

67

[quote]kamui wrote:

that’s precisely why it should be encouraged.
Beastiality is THE perfect birth control.
Cheap. No hormonal side effect. No failure. And it’s more fun (and as such more reliable) than abstinence.

[/quote]

:slight_smile:

68

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Ok.
Developped regions’s rate : 39
Developping regions’s rate : 34

Chile has the highest ratio of abortion amongst the countries where abortion is illegal : 35
Belas has the Highest ratio of abortions amongst the countries where abortion is legal : 61

[/quote]

The updated version of the link with numbers from 2003 don’t agree with you:

�?�¢?�?�¢ Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

So once again, what is your explanation for why this is so?[/quote]

You know the difference between a rate and a ratio, right ?
Countries where abortion is stil illegal (often developping countries) have an higher number and rate of pregnancies. Hence the higher rate (but usually lower ratio)of abortions .

From your own link :

[quote]â?¢ Of the 23 million pregnancies that occur in developed countries, more than 40% are unintended, and 28% end in induced abortion. [1, 8, 9, 10]

â?¢ Of the 185 million pregnancies that occur in developing countries, 40% are unintended, and 19% end in induced abortion. [15][/quote]
[/quote]

So you’re completely discrediting the fact that there’s a much lower birth rate resulting in the lower abortion rate and that this results in a much, much lower total number of abortions throughout parts of Europe than anywhere else in the world?

I would think you’d consider that a plus.

You also brought up the point I’m trying to make: the availability of contraceptives and attitudes surrounding sex/family in a culture have far more to do with total number of children killed by abortion in that culture than whether or not abortion is illegal.

69

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Ok.
Developped regions’s rate : 39
Developping regions’s rate : 34

Chile has the highest ratio of abortion amongst the countries where abortion is illegal : 35
Belas has the Highest ratio of abortions amongst the countries where abortion is legal : 61

[/quote]

The updated version of the link with numbers from 2003 don’t agree with you:

�¢?�¢ Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

So once again, what is your explanation for why this is so?[/quote]

I love the disingenuousness displayed in your article and post as if you are truly interested in bringing the abortion rate down. Where it is legal and encouraged (Asia) it’s fucking astronomical.
It really doesn’t matter if it’s legal or not in Africa, most of it is so poor they couldn’t get the service legal or not. They can’t even get Tylenol.

Further, allowing it doesn’t make it ok, it’s still murder.

70

[quote]
So you’re completely discrediting the fact that there’s a much lower birth rate resulting in the lower abortion rate and that this results in a much, much lower total number of abortions throughout parts of Europe than anywhere else in the world?[/quote]

I’m not “discrediting” anything here.
But then again, i know what the demographic transition is. And i know that “the availability of contraceptives and attitudes surrounding sex/family in a culture” are not the main causes of this phenomenon.

if anything, “the availability of contraceptives and attitudes surrounding sex/family in a culture” is a side effect of the demographic transition.

71

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

The point is that with this opinion, they still manage to kick our asses at reducing abortion. How the heck are they doing it Push?[/quote]

Your mistake is you’re so biased that you insist it can be nothing else other than “this opinion” that’s doing the ass kicking.[/quote]

That’s rather assumptive for someone who can’t answer a question that’s now been posed three times in this thread.

You guys are dancing around this like it’s poison. I’m just asking because I’m curious what other explanations might be out there other than what I’ve suggested already (attitudes about sex, family policy, and economic level): What is your explanation for the lower abortion rate, and hence lowest total number of abortions in certain parts of Europe than anywhere else in the world?

72

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]
So you’re completely discrediting the fact that there’s a much lower birth rate resulting in the lower abortion rate and that this results in a much, much lower total number of abortions throughout parts of Europe than anywhere else in the world?[/quote]

I’m not “discrediting” anything here.
But then again, i know what the demographic transition is. And i know that “the availability of contraceptives and attitudes surrounding sex/family in a culture” are not the main causes of this phenomenon.

if anything, “the availability of contraceptives and attitudes surrounding sex/family in a culture” is a side effect of the demographic transition. [/quote]

Final! Someone is going to answer the question I’ve been posing! Have at it Kamui! I’m listening!

BTW, I already addressed demographic transition several pages ago. I believe that was one of the first variables I pointed out.

73

Getting old and not pregnant.

74

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Ok.
Developped regions’s rate : 39
Developping regions’s rate : 34

Chile has the highest ratio of abortion amongst the countries where abortion is illegal : 35
Belas has the Highest ratio of abortions amongst the countries where abortion is legal : 61

[/quote]

The updated version of the link with numbers from 2003 don’t agree with you:

�?�¢?�?�¢ Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

So once again, what is your explanation for why this is so?[/quote]

I love the disingenuousness displayed in your article and post as if you are truly interested in bringing the abortion rate down. Where it is legal and encouraged (Asia) it’s fucking astronomical.
It really doesn’t matter if it’s legal or not in Africa, most of it is so poor they couldn’t get the service legal or not. They can’t even get Tylenol.

Further, allowing it doesn’t make it ok, it’s still murder.[/quote]

I know it’s quite high in Asia, which I think is mostly a result of China’s population control policies and so not really indicative of a trend by itself.

Regardless, I’m very interested to hear you what feel is the reason for it’s low occurrence in certain parts of Europe where abortion is legal.

I’m not interested in talking about whether or not it’s okay. I think the point here is regardless of what side of the argument you’re on, most people would like to see abortion numbers decrease. So it’s worthwhile, regardless of your views, to explore the variables. China’s population policy was one variable. What are the others?

75

since i have to do your homework :

do not stop reading when it says that there’s a correlation between birth rates and “economic levels”.
Keep reading until you understand how it’s related to the evolution of death rates and infant mortality.

76

[quote]kamui wrote:
since i have to do your homework :

do not stop reading when it says that there’s a correlation between birth rates and “economic levels”.
Keep reading until you understand how it’s related to the evolution of death rates and infant mortality.[/quote]

I read the whole thing, although it was basically my fifth grade sociology class summarized in a wiki page. Tell me again how increased access to contraceptives isn’t a variable affecting abortion rates? All of these are obviously related to demographic transition. I’m not sure why you feel a variable isn’t important because it’s related to demographic transition.

77

One last thing :

if you really want to know if the legalization of abortion caused an increase of the number/rate/ratio of abortion, you don’t need to compare a Belarussian apple with a peruvian orange.

You just need to take a before/after picture, country by country.
And you have to take historical dynamics into account.

If you do that, you will see that :

-the early legalization of abortion in the west led to the development of many new abortive techniques and drugs, which then became available easily, massively, at a worldwide scale. Those are now used everywhere, even in countries where abortion is still illegal.
-this obviously led to a global increase of the number/rate/ratio of abortions.

Stating that the “legalization of abortion has no impact on its prevalence” is pure unadulterated bullshit.

78

I never said it wasn’t a variable affecting abortion rates.
But it seems i successfully got you to admit it’s an indirect factor at best.

Now, you just need to acknowledge that the legal status of abortion has been, historically, a major and direct factor affecting abortion rates and my job will be done.

80

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Ok.
Developped regions’s rate : 39
Developping regions’s rate : 34

Chile has the highest ratio of abortion amongst the countries where abortion is illegal : 35
Belas has the Highest ratio of abortions amongst the countries where abortion is legal : 61

[/quote]

The updated version of the link with numbers from 2003 don’t agree with you:

�??�?�¢?�??�?�¢ Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

So once again, what is your explanation for why this is so?[/quote]

I love the disingenuousness displayed in your article and post as if you are truly interested in bringing the abortion rate down. Where it is legal and encouraged (Asia) it’s fucking astronomical.
It really doesn’t matter if it’s legal or not in Africa, most of it is so poor they couldn’t get the service legal or not. They can’t even get Tylenol.

Further, allowing it doesn’t make it ok, it’s still murder.[/quote]

I know it’s quite high in Asia, which I think is mostly a result of China’s population control policies and so not really indicative of a trend by itself.

Regardless, I’m very interested to hear you what feel is the reason for it’s low occurrence in certain parts of Europe where abortion is legal.

I’m not interested in talking about whether or not it’s okay. I think the point here is regardless of what side of the argument you’re on, most people would like to see abortion numbers decrease. So it’s worthwhile, regardless of your views, to explore the variables. China’s population policy was one variable. What are the others?[/quote]

We need to pick a place and understand it’s demographic a little better. Legality is just an enabling factor, not necessarily a causal factor. If your country happens to have a deep moral fiber built in, the incidences are probably less. correlations of divorce rate and crime rate I am sure have meaning in this context as well, we’d have to see.

The way to get it to decrease outside of the intimidation of law, is to understand what it is, and to rightly condemn it.
It’s not a political or religious issue, it’s a life or death issue. Putting it in it’s proper context is the first place to start.