Limited Contraceptives=Abortion?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
First, a source please. This is just a claim [aka straw-man] YOU are making!

Second, so you would like permission to use a “defective” embryo to purse a technology that will lead to a brick wall?

Please do not forget, Embryonic Stem Cell research has never helped a single person survive a terminal disease. What was the count of diseases cured with Adult Stem Cell research?

[quote]ironcross wrote:
1st of all, there simply aren’t enough people to make this feasible. Secondly, many of the embryos are defective. [/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not advocating stem cell research; I’m pointing out that we have been freezing excess embryos for >10 years now. Also, the embryos which are injected have to pass a series of tests regarding growth rate and quality; those that don’t pass are discarded. Not very many even survive the freezing and thawing process. With this in mind, along with the idea that every embryo is a person, you should be adamantly against the freezing process. However, considering that every petri dish baby is one of many more embryos that died in the process of making the cut, every pro-lifer should be as if not more concerned with fertility clinics than abortion clinics.

[/quote]

Because abortion is the lynchpin. The rest will follow. Congress need only define the life in the womb as a person. Section 5, 14th amendment. [/quote]

Defining life in the womb as a person wont do much to address in vitro conception practices. If anything, you’d be reinforcing them by definition.

I have two guesses for why there aren’t any threads about fertility clinics. 1. Not many are informed about them. 2. Fertility clinics seem less about death than life given their name so it feels weird to say you’re pro-life while standing staunchly against a fertility clinic.

Perhaps the pro-lifers on here should change their name to “anti-little-human-deathers”. (If you don’t include the little, then you wouldn’t be able to justify killing anyone, which we know isn’t the point you’re trying to make)[/quote]

I’m not sure what you think you’re doing. Is there a pro-lifer here that wouldn’t extend it to IVF? Not that I’m aware of. Abortion is the avenue to protecting human life at it’s beginning. It is the–again–the lynchpin. IVF would fall, or adapt, following the protection of human life being made law. IVF has been discussed in embryonic stem cell threads, btw. You’re arguing with yourself, now. And, don’t get stupid…“anti-little-human-deathers.” If there’s a more repulsive moniker than Pro-choice–since one human life isn’t ever allowed the opportunity–I don’t know what is.

Look, I know it must suck to stand on the wrong side of history. Must be tough for you. The slave traders had their abolitionists. We’re yours. And the teaching of history will be no kinder to the ‘pro-choicers’ than it has been to the plantation owner.

302

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
First, a source please. This is just a claim [aka straw-man] YOU are making!

Second, so you would like permission to use a “defective” embryo to purse a technology that will lead to a brick wall?

Please do not forget, Embryonic Stem Cell research has never helped a single person survive a terminal disease. What was the count of diseases cured with Adult Stem Cell research?

[quote]ironcross wrote:
1st of all, there simply aren’t enough people to make this feasible. Secondly, many of the embryos are defective. [/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not advocating stem cell research; I’m pointing out that we have been freezing excess embryos for >10 years now. Also, the embryos which are injected have to pass a series of tests regarding growth rate and quality; those that don’t pass are discarded. Not very many even survive the freezing and thawing process. With this in mind, along with the idea that every embryo is a person, you should be adamantly against the freezing process. However, considering that every petri dish baby is one of many more embryos that died in the process of making the cut, every pro-lifer should be as if not more concerned with fertility clinics than abortion clinics.

[/quote]

Because abortion is the lynchpin. The rest will follow. Congress need only define the life in the womb as a person. Section 5, 14th amendment. [/quote]

Defining life in the womb as a person wont do much… [/quote]

That was statement in a post, within a thread dealing with a broader discussion (including this), and not the final language of legislation.

303

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’m not sure what you think you’re doing. Is there a pro-lifer here that wouldn’t extend it to IVF? Not that I’m aware of. Abortion is the avenue to protecting human life at it’s beginning. It is the–again–the lynchpin. IVF would fall, or adapt, following the protection of human life being made law. IVF has been discussed in embryonic stem cell threads, btw. You’re arguing with yourself, now. And, don’t get stupid…“anti-little-human-deathers.” If there’s a more repulsive moniker than Pro-choice–since one human life isn’t ever allowed the opportunity–I don’t know what is.

Look, I know it must suck to stand on the wrong side of history. Must be tough for you. The slave traders had their abolitionists. We’re yours. And the teaching of history will be no kinder to the ‘pro-choicers’ than it has been to the plantation owner. [/quote]

Awesome points in this post ^ Sloth!

306

As well, your point is awesome push! Same with the post above this one ^

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Another coincidence? “It’s her (the “property” owner) body! She can do with what she wants!”

Sounds like a slaver to me.[/quote]

308

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
First, a source please. This is just a claim [aka straw-man] YOU are making!

Second, so you would like permission to use a “defective” embryo to purse a technology that will lead to a brick wall?

Please do not forget, Embryonic Stem Cell research has never helped a single person survive a terminal disease. What was the count of diseases cured with Adult Stem Cell research?

[quote]ironcross wrote:
1st of all, there simply aren’t enough people to make this feasible. Secondly, many of the embryos are defective. [/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not advocating stem cell research; I’m pointing out that we have been freezing excess embryos for >10 years now. Also, the embryos which are injected have to pass a series of tests regarding growth rate and quality; those that don’t pass are discarded. Not very many even survive the freezing and thawing process. With this in mind, along with the idea that every embryo is a person, you should be adamantly against the freezing process. However, considering that every petri dish baby is one of many more embryos that died in the process of making the cut, every pro-lifer should be as if not more concerned with fertility clinics than abortion clinics.

[/quote]

Because abortion is the lynchpin. The rest will follow. Congress need only define the life in the womb as a person. Section 5, 14th amendment. [/quote]

Defining life in the womb as a person wont do much to address in vitro conception practices. If anything, you’d be reinforcing them by definition.

I have two guesses for why there aren’t any threads about fertility clinics. 1. Not many are informed about them. 2. Fertility clinics seem less about death than life given their name so it feels weird to say you’re pro-life while standing staunchly against a fertility clinic.

Perhaps the pro-lifers on here should change their name to “anti-little-human-deathers”. (If you don’t include the little, then you wouldn’t be able to justify killing anyone, which we know isn’t the point you’re trying to make)[/quote]

I’m not sure what you think you’re doing. Is there a pro-lifer here that wouldn’t extend it to IVF? Not that I’m aware of. Abortion is the avenue to protecting human life at it’s beginning. It is the–again–the lynchpin. IVF would fall, or adapt, following the protection of human life being made law. IVF has been discussed in embryonic stem cell threads, btw. You’re arguing with yourself, now. And, don’t get stupid…“anti-little-human-deathers.” If there’s a more repulsive moniker than Pro-choice–since one human life isn’t ever allowed the opportunity–I don’t know what is.

Look, I know it must suck to stand on the wrong side of history. Must be tough for you. The slave traders had their abolitionists. We’re yours. And the teaching of history will be no kinder to the ‘pro-choicers’ than it has been to the plantation owner. [/quote]

Show me a slave that couldn’t physically survive once removed the slave situation and I believe we’d be talking about the same thing.

As for the side of history, safe abortion laws exist in all of the most developed countries in the world. Do you really think it’s going to be outlawed?

309

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
As well, your point is awesome push! Same with the post above this one ^

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Another coincidence? “It’s her (the “property” owner) body! She can do with what she wants!”

Sounds like a slaver to me.[/quote]

[/quote]

All I’ve got to say is if you’re on here trying to justify abortion you damn well better be staunchly defending slavery as well. They’re two peas in a pod.[/quote]

So a slave owner=a pregnant woman?

By this reasoning, there really shouldn’t be a problem with abortion. After all, that would just be setting the slave free.

312

Push, just think of the fetuses as poor people. What right do they have to free shit like nutrients and residence inside a womans body?

Someone posed the question in another thread, about the truely needy, and your (unrequested) response was that they should “get the hell out of the way” - isn’t that what abortion is, for the unborn?

315

[quote]ironcross wrote:

Show me a slave that couldn’t physically survive once removed the slave situation and I believe we’d be talking about the same thing.[/quote]

Somewhere in the middle of an African-Western shipping route, far out to sea…

“Here, you’re free. Now swim home! Haha”

Yep

316

Let me make this a little easier for those who missed logic 101.

My argument: you said A is a person, so those who kill A are murderers. A also exists in petri dishes and is killed on a regular basis and in larger numbers than the topic your main argument is against. Why the intense concern with one but the fleeting glance at the other, since both involve A?

Your argument: A is like B in certain ways, therefore if you let A die, you are the same as a person who kept B as a slave.

Do you see the difference? There are so many logical holes with your analogy that I’m saddened so many jumped on board with it.

the logic lesson for those who STILL missed it:

A does not equal B.

A murderer does not equal a slave owner.

318

[quote]ironcross wrote:
Let me make this a little easier for those who missed logic 101.

My argument: you said A is a person, so those who kill A are murderers. A also exists in petri dishes and is killed on a regular basis and in larger numbers than the topic your main argument is against. Why the intense concern with one but the fleeting glance at the other, since both involve A?[/quote]

Fleeting? I believe I’ve now said, twice, that such practices would naturally be stopped with legislation…IVF HAS also been mentioned many times in embryonic stem cell threads. Probably all of them. What aren’t you getting, yet?

Err, over your head. I’m not calling abortion, slavery. I’m saying abortion is OUR great moral issue, just as slavery was for those before us. You didn’t understand that?

They jumped on board because they understood what I was saying…

I almost feel embarrassed for you, having read this.

My gosh, you’re lost.

That’s cool and all, but not germane…

320

[quote]
Err, over your head. I’m not calling abortion, slavery. I’m saying abortion is OUR great moral issue, just as slavery was for those before us. You didn’t understand that? [/quote]

Sadly for your argument, slavery has existed in and has eventually been outlawed in every civilization. The same cannot be said for abortion. The fact is, as was pointed out by someone who was on the side of outlawing it, it’s legalization has been seen in every society as part of it’s progression through the developmental phases.

Also sad for your argument is that if you’d been born 200 years ago and stood on the conservative side you love, you’d be voting for slavery.

The only thing slavery and abortion have in common is that liberals have stood on the side that eventually became a wide-spread law throughout the most progressive countries in the world.