^^Yeah sorry for the derailing. If you want to reply to my post maybe switch over to the thread in PWI ac.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If you don’t want to be exposed to gender study classes, send your kid to Christian school. That is a parent’s prerogative.
[/quote]
I have to pay for the public school system with my taxes.
But “gay marriage” isn’t the only thing being pushed is it? They worm their way into schools under the pretext of “anti-bullying” to indoctrinate and sexualise children.
And we shouldn’t normalise abnormal pathologies should we? We shouldn’t humour mentally ill people and pretend their mental illness is sanity. And we certainly shouldn’t let them indoctrinate children with their sex fantasies and encourage young children to “explore” their “gender identities” should we?
Why do you think I do? I don’t hate schizophrenics. But if schizophrenics started going into schools and telling children to listen to the voices in their head then I have a problem with that.
Huh?
I’m not. I say “leave in the bedroom” - keep it out of the schools and the workplace. Why do I have to know what people do in their bedroom? They should keep it to themselves and not be teaching children about their cross dressing/gay fantasies.
Jesus, can we not get into this here? Save this shit for the politics dump at the bottom of the forum page…
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Ryancoburn wrote:
Nihlism leads to destructionism.
Faith leads to hope, understanding, knowledge, and peace.
Those with faith have no fears in life or death.
There is no absolute truth god exists there is no absolute truth he doesn’t. You put your faith where you see fit.[/quote]
The problem is, those with “faith” won’t leave it alone. They “Go forth and spread the word”. They simply won’t mind their own fucking business…
I don’t have a problem with the personal belief as I do with the organization in charge of promoting/codifying it.
They send people out to convert other people and to rake in more money for their organization. They encourage them (by threatening them with “sin” and excommunication) to not use birth control so that their followers breed MORE and MORE religious babies. They openly state that they want ALL people to believe in THEIR religion.
Historically, these organizations have started wars, committed torture, murder, slander and all kinds of acts promoting their own narrow view of the world. And people will say, “but that’s not what XYZ religion is about, that’s just PEOPLE”. Well guess what? PEOPLE are the ones committing crimes in the name of XYZ religion. And I’m not just picking on Christians here, or Muslims (although I’d say it’s a pretty fair statement that the Abrahamic religions have a metric shit ton of blood on their hands), I’m speaking of ALL religions including the Aztecs with their human sacrifices to the Jews with their practice of cutting the skin of little boys penises.
If you want people to be open to “faith”, why not try to fuck a few less little boys? Or if a member of your clergy DOES fuck little boys, how about you don’t just transfer the pedophile to another location so HE CAN FUCK MORE LITTLE BOYS?
That would be a great start.
What get’s me most is the ARROGANCE about how “right” you say you are in the absence of proof. Not a single religious person can offer PROOF that any of the bullshit he is preaching is actually true. Yet they have the balls to call me a sinner, tell me I’m going to hell, tell me I have to believe in Jesus, the bible, the ten commandments (or whatever), but they CANNOT PROVE SHIT.
Then they turn around and have the balls to come knocking on my door asking for a donation? LMAO[/quote]
While I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I’m trying to keep this from going in that direction.
I’m just talking about the existence of some sort of afterlife, not bagging on a particular religion. Organized religion - any religion - is foolish and does foolish things. [/quote]
Yeah, sorry dude. I really TRIED! My first post was pretty on topic about how I felt. But then they started talking about “faith” and I just couldn’t help myself. LOL I’ll do my best to hold back.[/quote]
Haha all good brotha…
Ha ha! Yeah sorry. See my comment above.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ha ha! Yeah sorry. See my comment above.[/quote]
Much appreciated man.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ha ha! Yeah sorry. See my comment above.[/quote]
What are your own beliefs on this? Sorry if they were stated and I missed them - just seemed like you were responding to others and hadn’t made your own clear.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ha ha! Yeah sorry. See my comment above.[/quote]
What are your own beliefs on this? Sorry if they were stated and I missed them - just seemed like you were responding to others and hadn’t made your own clear. [/quote]
Very difficult question. Let’s just say I try to believe in God because I’ve looked into the alternatives and they lead to very dark places. So do I really believe in God? I sure hope so.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ha ha! Yeah sorry. See my comment above.[/quote]
What are your own beliefs on this? Sorry if they were stated and I missed them - just seemed like you were responding to others and hadn’t made your own clear. [/quote]
Very difficult question. Let’s just say I try to believe in God because I’ve looked into the alternatives and they lead to very dark places. So do I really believe in God? I sure hope so.[/quote]
Haha. We are very similar then.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Ryancoburn wrote:
Nihlism leads to destructionism.
Faith leads to hope, understanding, knowledge, and peace.
Those with faith have no fears in life or death.
There is no absolute truth god exists there is no absolute truth he doesn’t. You put your faith where you see fit.[/quote]
The problem is, those with “faith” won’t leave it alone. They “Go forth and spread the word”. They simply won’t mind their own fucking business…
I don’t have a problem with the personal belief as I do with the organization in charge of promoting/codifying it.
[/quote]
Most of what you wrote about religion I can agree with - I’m of no particular religion myself and never have been. I’m on board with the agnostics.
But just about everyone promotes what they believe in. I’ve seen you write seething paragraphs about how stupid religious people are. Isn’t that promoting your (lack of) beliefs?
Personally, I think you offer a ton of good to this forum and always read your posts. But if all the evidence I had into who you are as a person was a snapshot of what you’ve written about religion, I’d think you’ve got more than a few screws loose in that noggin of yours.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Nope.
Further, I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans. Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear, as the nature of reason questions, and the nature of questions for humans lies in what happens to us when we die.
When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear within faith and reason… Rather than just dealing with and accepting the strong likelyhood that there is no afterlife, people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary. This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife, rather than never buying into the idea at all in the first place.
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]
This all sounds very. . . fraught. What a delight you must be at parties, calling your friends cowards! I don’t know what your childhood as a kid who went to church was like, but I’ve observed a lot of church-y families and they haven’t seemed to exhibit this kind of struggle.
[/quote]
For some people being told there is a heaven and a God is good enough, and they don’t ask questions. For others of us, we are curious by nature, all stuff you already know given different personality types, education levels etc. It’s hard to see how people take death and loss, it’s not like I’m going to ask you to go to a funeral and ask for interviews about how people feel.
I’ve never been to a party where everyone sits and talks about religion btw, but if you do all the time then cool.
[/quote]
What are you saying now? You said that you call your friends cowards, I said “how delightful!” and then you wanted to know what kind of parties I go to?
I have seen death. My own loved ones and others’. I deal with death and bereavement at work, along with end-of-life decisions (e.g. sell home and go to assisted living?). My observation has been that people near death, whether through old age or illness, become tired and generally feel ready to give themselves over to death (though not always). Many hold on until they can settle emotional issues (say goodbye to child who’s traveled in, see a spouse settled and cared for).
Younger or previously healthy people dying have other issues to contend with. I am not afraid of death, regardless of afterlife, but I have a great deal to do between now and what I hope will be my old age. Urgency would be a much better word for what I feel than fear.
Fear seems to come easily to you. That is not everyone’s default.[/quote]
C’mon Emily. You brought up the topic of discussing life after death at a party, which would have to occur before I’d call someone a coward for having faith at said party… Really, you go to parties where people sit around and talk about the afterlife?
Really, my view was best summed up in an earlier post by Powerpuff. As much as I want to go out and call people who fit that criteria cowards, I also love a lot of people who have faith. One of the things I’ve dealt with recently is more up your ally though… I’ve recently had to deal with a family member who had a psychotic break, resulting from a demon that she allowed into her brain when she strayed from God. By staying away from God she, “stayed in the fear” / with the demon… But she’s with God now, and all is well… She literally was homeless and put me in a spot where I was talking with her at work so she would be off the street. After two months shes back on her feet, working and in an apartment. Everything out of her is God this and God that, so long as she’s not on the streets homeless I’m happy for her, but sad for her too. She lost her daughter as a result.
I don’t know if I’m inclined to fear anymore than other people, there are times I’ve seen other people lose their shit. I’ve seen grown ass men of higher rank than me curl up and cry, I’ve seen a guy get so stressed out he opened his head up on the floor with his head after banging it a few times, I’ve seen a guy attack his senior in with a 3/4 inch wrench and literally try to kill him with it. I’ve never felt inclined to do any of these things, but I sure can make sense of them, or at least attempt to!
I think a lot of people grapple with the fear I talk about as a result of being human. But, really it’s exacerbated by investing in the idea of an afterlife like I have explained plenty already. [/quote]
Do you ever read what you write? You:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Nope.
Further, I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans. Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear, as the nature of reason questions, and the nature of questions for humans lies in what happens to us when we die.
When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear within faith and reason… Rather than just dealing with and accepting the strong likelyhood that there is no afterlife, people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary. This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife, rather than never buying into the idea at all in the first place.
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]
I see:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Nope.
I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans.
Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear
When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear
people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary.
This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards.
But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]
So you don’t have these confrontations at parties. Where, then? Work? On dates? Playing pool? Family bbqs? Grocery store lines? At any rate, that was not my point. My point was, you must be a lot of fun, with your multiple assumptions of the unending angst and terror of being human.
[/quote]
Certainly not at parties, and also in person I have a bit more tact and am less the asshole I am here. Instead of positing someone is a coward, I would rather ask the question whether it ends up being a cowardly thing to be so afraid of ideas that one refuses to entertain them seriously. Outside of that, I’ve said it’s cowardly to be capable of discerning faith and reason, and then let faith over-ride reason willingly. I’ve also posted as much on these forums. When I say entertain an idea seriously, I mean give an idea the attention and the respect to change ones mind. When I say change ones mind, I don’t mean convert a person to Atheism or anything like that, I’m simply saying you give ideas enough time and weigh them out seriously and come to your own educated conclusion, based on reason.
When you do, unless you have had some personal experience, miracle. Likely you realize that there are better explanations that don’t involve an afterlife… Etc. etc.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
When you do, unless you have had some personal experience, miracle. Likely you realize that there are better explanations that don’t involve an afterlife… Etc. etc. [/quote]
This is simply an opinion because “better” is a subjective term. There may be theories that are heading in the direction of HOW the world - the solar system, the Milky Way, the universe, the multiverse - came into being, but there are still none that address WHY there is Something rather than Nothing.
In that respect, the idea of a Creator may sound absurd - but to me that’s no more absurd than this world existing in any form anyway. Who is to say that this world existing and containing a species of cognizant, self-aware beings who contemplate and explore it makes sense, but then the idea that something set it all in motion … well, THAT is a bridge too far.
From what I have seen, science does the “how” better than anyone. The “why” … well, that is another story, and that’s where philosophy edges it aside…
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
[quote]Ryancoburn wrote:
Nihlism leads to destructionism.
Faith leads to hope, understanding, knowledge, and peace.
Those with faith have no fears in life or death.
There is no absolute truth god exists there is no absolute truth he doesn’t. You put your faith where you see fit.[/quote]
Had a small rant ready and then re-read your post and want to clarify.
“Faith leads to…”
Are you implying faith in a supreme being? Can faith be expressed in other ways that don’t involve the religious belief of an omniscient being?
[/quote]
I imply nothing merely stating faith is important. For example we are all posting on a weightlifting forum. I doubt many would last if they didn’t have faith in there bodies that by lifting heavy object A would lead to desired outcome B. Looking better? or getting stronger? whatever we all worship the god of the iron.
Where you place your faith however has a massive outcome on where you end up emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually.
Those who place there faith in something not man made that cant be destroyed or eroded with time. Place faith and move in a direction towards meaning to exist. Those who place faith in say themselves may find with time. They placed faith in something that isn’t constant and will be a pile of dust. The possible problem with this is that overtime you may have gone 4 steps forward 5 steps backward, 10 steps sideways. But then again maybe if you don’t believe in a end destination where you end up now has little meaning or value.
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
[quote]Ryancoburn wrote:
Nihlism leads to destructionism.
Faith leads to hope, understanding, knowledge, and peace.
Those with faith have no fears in life or death.
There is no absolute truth god exists there is no absolute truth he doesn’t. You put your faith where you see fit.[/quote]
So are you implying that most of us are Nihilists?[/quote]
Definition of Nilhism
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
I imply nothing what my post means to you means whatever it means to you?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
In that respect, the idea of a Creator may sound absurd - but to me that’s no more absurd than this world existing in any form anyway. Who is to say that this world existing and containing a species of cognizant, self-aware beings who contemplate and explore it makes sense, but then the idea that something set it all in motion … well, THAT is a bridge too far.
From what I have seen, science does the “how” better than anyone. The “why” … well, that is another story, and that’s where philosophy edges it aside… [/quote]
Agreed. I’m not buying the notion we’d even be able to comprehend the “why” anyway.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
In that respect, the idea of a Creator may sound absurd - but to me that’s no more absurd than this world existing in any form anyway. Who is to say that this world existing and containing a species of cognizant, self-aware beings who contemplate and explore it makes sense, but then the idea that something set it all in motion … well, THAT is a bridge too far.
From what I have seen, science does the “how” better than anyone. The “why” … well, that is another story, and that’s where philosophy edges it aside… [/quote]
Agreed. I’m not buying the notion we’d even be able to comprehend the “why” anyway. [/quote]
That is something I’ve always thought, even before my recent crucible and struggle with all of this: if there is an afterlife, it is vastly different in both purpose and function than anything any religion has ever told us.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Certainly not at parties, and also in person I have a bit more tact and am less the asshole I am here. Instead of positing someone is a coward, I would rather ask the question whether it ends up being a cowardly thing to be so afraid of ideas that one refuses to entertain them seriously. When I say entertain an idea seriously, I mean give an idea the attention and the respect to change ones mind. When I say change ones mind, I don’t mean convert a person to Atheism or anything like that, I’m simply saying you give ideas enough time and weigh them out seriously and come to your own educated conclusion, based on reason.
When you do, unless you have had some personal experience, miracle. Likely you realize that there are better explanations that don’t involve an afterlife… Etc. etc. [/quote]
You REALLY need to expand your view of Christianity beyond the experiences you’ve had with your family and people you knew when you were a kid.
An interesting passage:
“The effects we acknowledge naturally, do include a power of their producing, before they were produced; and that power presupposeth something existent that hath such power; and the thing so existing with power to produce, if it were not eternal, must needs have been produced by somewhat before it, and that again by something else before that, till we come to an eternal, that is to say, the first power of all powers and first cause of all causes; and this is it which all men conceive by the name of God, implying eternity, incomprehensibility, and omnipotence.” - Hobbes
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Nope.
Further, I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans. Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear, as the nature of reason questions, and the nature of questions for humans lies in what happens to us when we die.
When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear within faith and reason… Rather than just dealing with and accepting the strong likelyhood that there is no afterlife, people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary. This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife, rather than never buying into the idea at all in the first place.
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]
You profoundly misunderstand dual world theologies. People don’t believe because they are “afraid” of death. People believe because the self needs to understand why it exists at all. Man is condemned to ask why and get no answer. That is nihilism. The only escape from nihilism is meaning. I’m not afraid of suffering or dying. I’m afraid of meaninglessness; of nothingness; of the absurd; of oblivion. The fact that you are not afraid of these things does not make you less of a coward; it just makes you less of a deep thinker.[/quote]
That is true, death is nothing, the lack of meaning is just a tad demotivating. [/quote]
Severiano has equated non-belief with strength, courage, education, and reason. Facing the void without the safety net of belief. And apparently open and tolerant. I mean, being judgmental is a religious person’s domain isn’t it?
People who choose to live with faith are conversely weak, cowardly, full of fear, lacking in intellectual flexibility, unreasonable, quixotic, AND, doing damage to their children by introducing them to existential angst and a “life of fear.” People with faith have “bought into the idea” or drunk the Kool-aid, or are acting on blind faith because they haven’t really pondered and struggled intellectually with the big questions of existence and uncertainty, because they lack the courage or self awareness to do so. And they probably never took physics. For example, guys like Jewbacca and Cortes. What a couple of intellectually stunted, backward dumb asses.
[/quote]
I’ll let Cortes know you are thinking about him. :-)[/quote]
For sure. Hello to him and his little family from me. And nice to see you as well, Chushin.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
I mean, being judgmental is a religious person’s domain isn’t it?
People who choose to live with faith are conversely weak, cowardly, full of fear, lacking in intellectual flexibility, unreasonable, quixotic, AND, doing damage to their children by introducing them to existential angst and a “life of fear.” People with faith have “bought into the idea” or drunk the Kool-aid, or are acting on blind faith because they haven’t really pondered and struggled intellectually with the big questions of existence and uncertainty, because they lack the courage or self awareness to do so. And they probably never took physics. For example, guys like Jewbacca and Cortes. What a couple of intellectually stunted, backward dumb asses.
[/quote]
I was about to give you a bunch of shit until I got to the end, lol.
[/quote]
Hey Beans. I’m not usually so sarcastic, but that was killing me.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
An interesting passage:
“The effects we acknowledge naturally, do include a power of their producing, before they were produced; and that power presupposeth something existent that hath such power; and the thing so existing with power to produce, if it were not eternal, must needs have been produced by somewhat before it, and that again by something else before that, till we come to an eternal, that is to say, the first power of all powers and first cause of all causes; and this is it which all men conceive by the name of God, implying eternity, incomprehensibility, and omnipotence.” - Hobbes[/quote]
That’s the “unmoved mover” concept first articulated by Aristotle and taken up by Thomas Aquinas amongst others. It’s interesting but is something of a dead end in my opinion. Personally, I think ontology and specifically the “subject-object problem”, the “mind-body problem” and the “philosophy of space and time” are likely to be of more use in uncovering the “why.”