Life After Death

Off Topic
21

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Who believes in it, and why?

Your thoughts?[/quote]

Given our analytical power (intelligence) and the way society indoctrinates individuals to find out the how and why behind things, I think it’s only normal that we look to give purpose to everything. However, when we lack the evidence or know how to answer one of the millions of questions we have, we begin to make assumptions or invent possibilities that may explain a certain phenomenon.

Early humans tried to understand a lot of things and the only explanation they had was that someone, somewhere was causing it to happen. From there we concluded that there was a God and that given our “importance”, only logical that we end up living happily ever after.

Extensive research and experience tells us that the brain is where the entirety of a person is. Give someone drugs that alters their brain chemistry and they behave and think differently. Even you, Fightin’, have experienced the change in your and others’ behavior after consuming alcohol, doing drugs, etc. You may know of people that were brain damaged or something happened to their brain/head, turning them in to different people. In any case, it is well documented that this is so.

Humanity begins and ends with the brain. When that brain dies, we die. There are no magical unicorn farts. There are no golden arches. The entirety of you lies in your brain. When that brain shuts down, you cease to exist. I imagine it is similar to being asleep: you don’t know you even exist until you wake up, except you never wake up from death.

We grow up being told about “living happily ever after” and that death is a horrible thing. Actual death is hidden from us and when it is seen, it is cartoonishly demonstrated to us through comic books, games, movies and shows. Maybe we’ve lost touch with reality?

There doesn’t have to be a reason. There doesn’t have to be a purpose. It may be sad, depressing and unfair, but it is life…and it is also death.

22

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Who believes in it, and why?

Your thoughts?[/quote]

Given our analytical power (intelligence) and the way society indoctrinates individuals to find out the how and why behind things, I think it’s only normal that we look to give purpose to everything. However, when we lack the evidence or know how to answer one of the millions of questions we have, we begin to make assumptions or invent possibilities that may explain a certain phenomenon.

Early humans tried to understand a lot of things and the only explanation they had was that someone, somewhere was causing it to happen. From there we concluded that there was a God and that given our “importance”, only logical that we end up living happily ever after.

Extensive research and experience tells us that the brain is where the entirety of a person is. Give someone drugs that alters their brain chemistry and they behave and think differently. Even you, Fightin’, have experienced the change in your and others’ behavior after consuming alcohol, doing drugs, etc. You may know of people that were brain damaged or something happened to their brain/head, turning them in to different people. In any case, it is well documented that this is so.

Humanity begins and ends with the brain. When that brain dies, we die. There are no magical unicorn farts. There are no golden arches. The entirety of you lies in your brain. When that brain shuts down, you cease to exist. I imagine it is similar to being asleep: you don’t know you even exist until you wake up, except you never wake up from death.

We grow up being told about “living happily ever after” and that death is a horrible thing. Actual death is hidden from us and when it is seen, it is cartoonishly demonstrated to us through comic books, games, movies and shows. Maybe we’ve lost touch with reality?

There doesn’t have to be a reason. There doesn’t have to be a purpose. It may be sad, depressing and unfair, but it is life…and it is also death.[/quote]

You don’t feel a sense of awareness in deep sleep? Like oh “I” was asleep for x,y,z hours, but who was the one aware that the sense of “I” self was in deep sleep?

23

Count me with those who don’t believe in life after death. I have no reason to think that once my heart stops and my brain dies that I will continue to exist since my brain, while it is alive, is me.

I don’t find that depressing. I enjoy being alive but I won’t know the difference when it ends. It’s a bit harder to stomach that loved ones who die are gone forever. But all I know is there is no point counting on anything more so I best make the most out of this one.

24

Nope.

Further, I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans. Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear, as the nature of reason questions, and the nature of questions for humans lies in what happens to us when we die.

When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear within faith and reason… Rather than just dealing with and accepting the strong likelyhood that there is no afterlife, people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary. This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife, rather than never buying into the idea at all in the first place.

I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do.

25

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

Well aren’t you a bad ass :^)

26

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

Well aren’t you a bad ass :^)[/quote]

I was once religious, it’s not easy to let go of it once you are invested. In fact, it’s not hard to entertain the idea that there is no God/ afterlife. The hard part is giving up all the investments surrounding faith. Like, if you have a spouse who is into the faith, or if you are invested because of the people/ parish, or if you have explained it away to your children who bought into it, and then you lose your faith.

It’s not easy to let go of it for all sorts of reasons having to do with investment. Just saying, not everyone is willing to go through it or strong enough to let go of the bullshit called faith.

27

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

Well aren’t you a bad ass :^)[/quote]

I was once religious, it’s not easy to let go of it once you are invested. In fact, it’s not hard to entertain the idea that there is no God/ afterlife. The hard part is giving up all the investments surrounding faith. Like, if you have a spouse who is into the faith, or if you are invested because of the people/ parish, or if you have explained it away to your children who bought into it, and then you lose your faith.

It’s not easy to let go of it for all sorts of reasons having to do with investment. Just saying, not everyone is willing to go through it or strong enough to let go of the bullshit called faith.
[/quote]

I am not a religious person but am curious, why did you drop it?

28

[quote]debraD wrote:
Count me with those who don’t believe in life after death. I have no reason to think that once my heart stops and my brain dies that I will continue to exist since my brain, while it is alive, is me.

I don’t find that depressing. I enjoy being alive but I won’t know the difference when it ends. It’s a bit harder to stomach that loved ones who die are gone forever. But all I know is there is no point counting on anything more so I best make the most out of this one. [/quote]

I am open to the idea of an afterlife, but I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph. If this is it, do it well.

I give credence to all sorts of cheery fantasies. That’s my nature. But I don’t need them as protection against despair. I don’t have any fear or despair over my own death. I do fear the loss of people I love, but that’s not abated by assumptions about afterlife for me, since I have no idea what form that might take (reincarnation would not allow for reunification with loved ones) and my belief in it is tenuous at best.

29

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Nope.

Further, I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans. Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear, as the nature of reason questions, and the nature of questions for humans lies in what happens to us when we die.

When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear within faith and reason… Rather than just dealing with and accepting the strong likelyhood that there is no afterlife, people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary. This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife, rather than never buying into the idea at all in the first place.

I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

This all sounds very. . . fraught. What a delight you must be at parties, calling your friends cowards! I don’t know what your childhood as a kid who went to church was like, but I’ve observed a lot of church-y families and they haven’t seemed to exhibit this kind of struggle.

30

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

Well aren’t you a bad ass :^)[/quote]

I was once religious, it’s not easy to let go of it once you are invested. In fact, it’s not hard to entertain the idea that there is no God/ afterlife. The hard part is giving up all the investments surrounding faith. Like, if you have a spouse who is into the faith, or if you are invested because of the people/ parish, or if you have explained it away to your children who bought into it, and then you lose your faith.

It’s not easy to let go of it for all sorts of reasons having to do with investment. Just saying, not everyone is willing to go through it or strong enough to let go of the bullshit called faith.
[/quote]

I am not a religious person but am curious, why did you drop it?
[/quote]

Starts when you really question your faith with reasoning in a critical way. For me what sort of put reasoning in front of faith was all the shit I’ve seen in my travels, both as a Civilian and a Marine. You witness and go through the ugly things that nobody should have to.

I’m not saying I’m not afraid or averse to death. I recognize that religion uses fear and the promise of eternal life as well as other threats and promises to get people to do their work. There is also a particular memory I have of seeing my grandfather go through the horror of death after a stroke. I remember him crying, and asking me whether he would make it to heaven. I got to see this when I was 15, and I’d never seen him cry before.

Years later I saw the next paternal leader of my family cry and show the same fear I saw in my grandfather during a funeral. It took a couple of things to get me to where I am now. Ultimately I recognized fear to be the primary motivator of most faiths. Fear can keep us alive and is a healthy thing for survival, but when it’s used to control people it becomes ubiquitous with everything they do. I used to run from my problems and things I was afraid of, but then I grew the fuck up and I face them now.

Rather than shame or fear people into doing things, why not just use reason and be done with shame and fear to control people? Look at the world and what people do because they buy into faith, and look at what path it has us set on.

In 100 years, where do you see Islam and Christianity? We going to stop chopping one anothers heads off and dropping bombs because of extremism anytime soon?

31

We are all made of stardust. Each and every molecule in our body originates from a stellar explosion and the resulting fusion from billions of years ago. Since we are all made up of “matter/energy”, when we die, our body disintegrates (rots/burns) and the “matter/energy” that is “us” returns to the primordial soup of the universe. In that sense, we ALL have an “afterlife” in that our "matter/energy WILL most certainly continue and manifest itself in a different form eventually.

As for our “Earthly persona” ( you know, our self concept of our “self”), that is simply a sum of our experiences influenced by certain genetic predispositions. It’s certainly something that we are all “attached to” to a certain degree, but most of us do not achieve any degree of significance to where we really matter at all. In fact for our “Earthly persona”, I would submit that we have THREE deaths: the death of our physical body/mind, the death of the last person who knew us, and the last time our name is spoken.

If you want to live forever, be significant.

32

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Nope.

Further, I believe that introducing children to such ideas also introduces existential fear that we all have to deal with as humans. Faith in the afterlife sets up people for a life of fear, as the nature of reason questions, and the nature of questions for humans lies in what happens to us when we die.

When we invest in the idea of an afterlife we subject ourselves to the push pull of fear within faith and reason… Rather than just dealing with and accepting the strong likelyhood that there is no afterlife, people buy into the idea and then have to convince themselves of such over and over out of fear of the contrary. This is the nature of faith in the afterlife, it leads to Existentialism in later life, and the holding onto of the intrinsic fear that there is no afterlife, rather than never buying into the idea at all in the first place.

I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

This all sounds very. . . fraught. What a delight you must be at parties, calling your friends cowards! I don’t know what your childhood as a kid who went to church was like, but I’ve observed a lot of church-y families and they haven’t seemed to exhibit this kind of struggle.

[/quote]

For some people being told there is a heaven and a God is good enough, and they don’t ask questions. For others of us, we are curious by nature, all stuff you already know given different personality types, education levels etc. It’s hard to see how people take death and loss, it’s not like I’m going to ask you to go to a funeral and ask for interviews about how people feel.

I’ve never been to a party where everyone sits and talks about religion btw, but if you do all the time then cool.

33

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
We are all made of stardust. Each and every molecule in our body originates from a stellar explosion and the resulting fusion from billions of years ago. Since we are all made up of “matter/energy”, when we die, our body disintegrates (rots/burns) and the “matter/energy” that is “us” returns to the primordial soup of the universe. In that sense, we ALL have an “afterlife” in that our "matter/energy WILL most certainly continue and manifest itself in a different form eventually.

As for our “Earthly persona” ( you know, our self concept of our “self”), that is simply a sum of our experiences influenced by certain genetic predispositions. It’s certainly something that we are all “attached to” to a certain degree, but most of us do not achieve any degree of significance to where we really matter at all. In fact for our “Earthly persona”, I would submit that we in fact have THREE deaths: the death of our physical body/mind, the death of the last person who knew us, and the last time our name is spoken.

If you want to live forever, be significant.[/quote]

What is the endeavor to live forever other than how we are all wired? We all are wired to think this way, and that is why fear of death is intrinsic.

So, when you accomplish something awesome, is it because you want to live forever? Or is it motivated by something more altruistic and awesome, like making the whole of humanity better?

I’d rather be nameless and help humanity than be forever remembered.

34

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
We are all made of stardust. Each and every molecule in our body originates from a stellar explosion and the resulting fusion from billions of years ago. Since we are all made up of “matter/energy”, when we die, our body disintegrates (rots/burns) and the “matter/energy” that is “us” returns to the primordial soup of the universe. In that sense, we ALL have an “afterlife” in that our "matter/energy WILL most certainly continue and manifest itself in a different form eventually.

As for our “Earthly persona” ( you know, our self concept of our “self”), that is simply a sum of our experiences influenced by certain genetic predispositions. It’s certainly something that we are all “attached to” to a certain degree, but most of us do not achieve any degree of significance to where we really matter at all. In fact for our “Earthly persona”, I would submit that we in fact have THREE deaths: the death of our physical body/mind, the death of the last person who knew us, and the last time our name is spoken.

If you want to live forever, be significant.[/quote]

What is the endeavor to live forever other than how we are all wired? We all are wired to think this way, and that is why fear of death is intrinsic.
[/quote]Fear of death is hardwired so that our species could survive. Those who didn’t fear death died before they could reproduce [quote]

So, when you accomplish something awesome, is it because you want to live forever? Or is it motivated by something more altruistic and awesome, like making the whole of humanity better?

I’d rather be nameless and help humanity than be forever remembered. [/quote]

That’s sounds great. But most people are driven by their ego and not a sense of altruism.

35

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
We are all made of stardust. Each and every molecule in our body originates from a stellar explosion and the resulting fusion from billions of years ago. Since we are all made up of “matter/energy”, when we die, our body disintegrates (rots/burns) and the “matter/energy” that is “us” returns to the primordial soup of the universe. In that sense, we ALL have an “afterlife” in that our "matter/energy WILL most certainly continue and manifest itself in a different form eventually.

As for our “Earthly persona” ( you know, our self concept of our “self”), that is simply a sum of our experiences influenced by certain genetic predispositions. It’s certainly something that we are all “attached to” to a certain degree, but most of us do not achieve any degree of significance to where we really matter at all. In fact for our “Earthly persona”, I would submit that we in fact have THREE deaths: the death of our physical body/mind, the death of the last person who knew us, and the last time our name is spoken.

If you want to live forever, be significant.[/quote]

What is the endeavor to live forever other than how we are all wired? We all are wired to think this way, and that is why fear of death is intrinsic.
[/quote]Fear of death is hardwired so that our species could survive. Those who didn’t fear death died before they could reproduce [quote]

So, when you accomplish something awesome, is it because you want to live forever? Or is it motivated by something more altruistic and awesome, like making the whole of humanity better?

I’d rather be nameless and help humanity than be forever remembered. [/quote]

That’s sounds great. But most people are driven by their ego and not a sense of altruism.[/quote]

Completely agree!

36

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’ve gone so far as to call people who are educated and believe in the afterlife; cowards. But really we are wired to be horrified of death, and not everyone is strong enough to look at reality the same way I do. [/quote]

Well aren’t you a bad ass :^)[/quote]

I was once religious, it’s not easy to let go of it once you are invested. In fact, it’s not hard to entertain the idea that there is no God/ afterlife. The hard part is giving up all the investments surrounding faith. Like, if you have a spouse who is into the faith, or if you are invested because of the people/ parish, or if you have explained it away to your children who bought into it, and then you lose your faith.

It’s not easy to let go of it for all sorts of reasons having to do with investment. Just saying, not everyone is willing to go through it or strong enough to let go of the bullshit called faith.
[/quote]

I am not a religious person but am curious, why did you drop it?
[/quote]

Starts when you really question your faith with reasoning in a critical way. For me what sort of put reasoning in front of faith was all the shit I’ve seen in my travels, both as a Civilian and a Marine. You witness and go through the ugly things that nobody should have to.

I’m not saying I’m not afraid or averse to death. I recognize that religion uses fear and the promise of eternal life as well as other threats and promises to get people to do their work. There is also a particular memory I have of seeing my grandfather go through the horror of death after a stroke. I remember him crying, and asking me whether he would make it to heaven. I got to see this when I was 15, and I’d never seen him cry before.

Years later I saw the next paternal leader of my family cry and show the same fear I saw in my grandfather during a funeral. It took a couple of things to get me to where I am now. Ultimately I recognized fear to be the primary motivator of most faiths. Fear can keep us alive and is a healthy thing for survival, but when it’s used to control people it becomes ubiquitous with everything they do. I used to run from my problems and things I was afraid of, but then I grew the fuck up and I face them now.

[/quote]

I understand where you are coming from, the fear of death also makes no sense in a religious concept. If you are a supposed believer and you acknowledge for example Jesus as your lord and savior, this makes you saved. They also really try and go into detail about how awesome and amazing the after life will be from them, so much so you would expect most people to be lying around just waiting for some terminal illness to offer them salvation. Contrary to all of that though this is never usually the case when it does happen.

Most people when they learn they are dying go into a kind of catatonic extensional crisis and a sort of deep rooted sense of fear washes over. Questioning faith on the peak of death seems also common, as if right on the brink they feel their belief in their chosen cultures theology won’t really come or a great sense of doubt and insecurity happens as they fall into the complete unknown.

That is all however just a shallow part of most religious teaching or spirituality. You don’t need either of them to understand deep value. Some people just let go very gracefully with surrender to death. For yourself I can see it and that’s why I asked. It seems you went into some kind of state of nihilism after.

I just wanted to say there definitely is something here but words can never touch it. Its the deepest part of your true nature, and it is who and what you really are. There is nothing of more vital importance in life then turning back to oneself and recognizing what is absolutely true. Its because inherit goodness, true potential, true love, and true creativity all flow forth from it. It doesn’t have a name or face and it definitely does not have a story or sense of personal "identity’. It is just eternal and ever present, here and now.

Anyways I didn’t want to go to far into a tangent but just wanted to share it as I thought you said some interesting things, I know it might sound like mumbo jumbo or whatever but if you really contemplate on some of it. Just take a step back from your thoughts. Not trying to understand it on a purely intellectual level but just feel for a sense of deeper recognition or resonance with it. This is not meant to be some cheesy spiritual fluff talk or the like either just really simple things. Most people already can kind of feel or understand it too if you just rest your mind and try not to compare it or analyze it like studying a text book, at least to some degree.

37

Life after death is coming soon.

The singularity approaches and by 2040 you should be able to download your consciousness into a robotic shell. Immortality - albeit one occasionally interrupted by the need to upgrade to a new shell - will be possible.

I’m just hoping my new robot shell has genitalia. Not having them will make having sex with other robots a bitch.

38

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I would submit that we have THREE deaths: the death of our physical body/mind, the death of the last person who knew us, and the last time our name is spoken.
[/quote]
Interesting.

39

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Who believes in it, and why?

Your thoughts?[/quote]

Given our analytical power (intelligence) and the way society indoctrinates individuals to find out the how and why behind things, I think it’s only normal that we look to give purpose to everything. However, when we lack the evidence or know how to answer one of the millions of questions we have, we begin to make assumptions or invent possibilities that may explain a certain phenomenon.

Early humans tried to understand a lot of things and the only explanation they had was that someone, somewhere was causing it to happen. From there we concluded that there was a God and that given our “importance”, only logical that we end up living happily ever after.

Extensive research and experience tells us that the brain is where the entirety of a person is. Give someone drugs that alters their brain chemistry and they behave and think differently. Even you, Fightin’, have experienced the change in your and others’ behavior after consuming alcohol, doing drugs, etc. You may know of people that were brain damaged or something happened to their brain/head, turning them in to different people. In any case, it is well documented that this is so.

Humanity begins and ends with the brain. When that brain dies, we die. There are no magical unicorn farts. There are no golden arches. The entirety of you lies in your brain. When that brain shuts down, you cease to exist. I imagine it is similar to being asleep: you don’t know you even exist until you wake up, except you never wake up from death.

We grow up being told about “living happily ever after” and that death is a horrible thing. Actual death is hidden from us and when it is seen, it is cartoonishly demonstrated to us through comic books, games, movies and shows. Maybe we’ve lost touch with reality?

There doesn’t have to be a reason. There doesn’t have to be a purpose. It may be sad, depressing and unfair, but it is life…and it is also death.[/quote]

You don’t feel a sense of awareness in deep sleep? Like oh “I” was asleep for x,y,z hours, but who was the one aware that the sense of “I” self was in deep sleep?
[/quote]

Sometimes you do but you don’t realize it until you wake up or in very rare instances. For the most part, do you remember your dreams? Do you remember what it was like before you existed? Do you remember your first day of existence?

40

I have no particular faith - I was raised Catholic but never really believed in it - but I have always claimed deism as my belief system, and I have always been attracted to the ideas of the Enlightenment in that regard.

As we get further along in physics, I’m curious about how that will impact what we believe and why. And again, although I do think all religions are equally foolish, I don’t discount the idea of a Creator of some sort. It certainly is difficult to believe that even though it appears to be possible that Something can spring from Nothing, why that would happen at all - what its impetus would be - is a haunting question that I don’t believe science can ever answer because you’ll always be able to go back further and ask, “Why?”

I just read this article, which I thought was very interesting. Has some bearing here too.