[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Should I recount the story of the mighty Russian bear and his defeat at the hands of a band of loosely organized tribes?
Afghanistan proves conclusively and forever that it can be done where there is enough will and enough small arms.
Afghanistan?
Be serious, the Russians, who were invaders, not an opressive government we were really talking about, were without question victorious in what they were up to: namely invading the land. Afterwards, they had to secure some puppet government and face guerilla war in order not to loose face.
The escalation of this full fledged guerilla war cannot be compared with an uprising of some upright citizens with small firearms:
the Mudjahedin were hand fed with hundreds of millions by US government and the Saudis.
They were given first class high tech equipment, like the stinger missile launcher
Likewise, they received training how to set up explosives, conduct ambushes etc.
The CIA provided the guerilla with vital military information like satellite photos or decoded sowjet radio messages.
The society of afghanistan is in no way comparable to a modern society of the western world. The circumstances, under which the mudjahedin fought, would be unbearable for modern and educated people like us.
After the war, the “loosely organized” and “good people” of afghanistan went directly to war with each other to create an optimal society. Apparently, you my fellow americans were’t so happy with the outcome because, well, you DID wage war with them didn’t you?
The losses: 15 000 fallen soldiers on soviet side.
The people of afghanistan lost over a million. Now tell me something about resisting a modern army.
Without help from outside, it is highly doubtful that the “russian bear” would have even flinched. Also, the soviets were experiencing greater problems at that time than to maintain a prestige occupation which was getting useless.
In rural parts of Afghanistan, guns are an essential part of the patriarchy. A man without a gun is not a real man.
It’s a good example of a society who shoots first, asks questions later. A society which claims to be just and moraly firm. A society I wouldn’t like to be part of. I like democracy and a government which may be shitty, but which I can dismiss on the next election.
Afghanistan won’t do the trick, so please provide us with reasonable arguments (statistics, historical data etc.) as why allowing the masses to arm themselves would be beneficial to a society.
@WMD: I already told in previous posts that in an armed society, I probably would get a weapon myself. I’m not telling you not to get a gun and stay helpless, whatever the cost.
Since Varqanir did not open this thread to talk about inner US politics, I contributed my general opinion. Which is: Allowing everyone to have access to weapons leads to more troubles.
Also, I’m pretty clueless if it’s really possible to disarm an already
armed society.
@varqanir: Please tell me straight and simple: in which century man has been more free than today? I really want to know.
Last request-
Would you rather live in a society where
a) no one has guns except police and military ?
b) everyone has full access to pistols rifles, automatic machine guns ?
I know this is simplified but let’s just assume it, kay? I’m curious.
And please, no more fairy tales (“just a few good men i say…”) or Heinlein poetry (“You can have peace or freedom, not both”).
[/quote]
Fairy tales?
I predicted you would have every excuse in the book. I even laid out the bulk of your hollow counterargument before you made it! Still, you follow through posting the exact nonsense I said you would.
None of us claimed that an armed civilian populace would not suffer horrible loss in battling an organized modern military. Also, like I said, sure the Afghans had a lot of aid in terms of equipment, although you refuse to spot us such aid should we ever find ourselves in a similar situation.
The fact remains that Russia packed up its military and went home. What the hell does it matter that we went to war with SOME of the people in Afghanistan years later? That statment alone shows how perverted your attempt at logic is.
Im done with you. Like I said, your mind is made up and you have the freedom
to continue ignoring/distorting the truth any way you wish.
