[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
What is a Libertarian? He’s the guy that stands before America with no further plan than:
“I’m going to work to tear down entitlements and welfare for good!”
“Ok…what about the poor and the working lower/middle class?”
“They’ll just have to not do stupid stuff, or starve”
Dabba wrote:
I just have to point out this mega-sized strawman here. Again, I’ve never EVER heard a libertarian say anything along these lines[/quote]
Me neither. Not outright. Well, perhaps from Randians.
However, that’s the only conclusion libertarians leave me with. You see, whenever a libertarian and myself agree on the burden of an oversized/overcentralized entitlement state, I bring up the social aspect. In times past a strong civic spirit could be found scattered throughout this nation. Little Platoons. An associational life, if you will. Whatever you want to call the concept, it was as an anti-centralizing mechanic. And it is the only thing that will usher in a realistic decentralization.
Committed families. Neighbors who knew each other. Community. Much less job competition with 3rd world labor (outsourced and illegally here) expecting mere 2nd world wages. These things are formed from a sense of belonging, time, and place. Those things in turn are born of a rather common culture; norms, morals, obligations, loyalty, limits, a sense of duty, and yes…even law. Furthermore, those things are best learned in an intact home, reinforced by a community with expectations of behavior for it’s denizens (they know your name!). Today? Hollowed out. Where we once softened the excesses of Market and State through the buffer of a civic life, today we’re left with the Market-State and Welfare-State.
So, I bring all this up to the libertarian, and you know what? I’ve never had one disagree. Ever. So, I ask them “What ever shall we do to rectify this situation?” They, “Dismantle the welfare state, of course.” Me, “How do you intend to sell that to a people who no longer have the safety net of family and community as our forefathers once did?” They, “By dismantling the welfare state.” Me, “No, look, how are you going to get the people to vote for your agenda. What will you tell the single mothers in poverty, with absentee fathers. A single mother who probably doesn’t even know her neighbors. In fact, is most likely suspicious of them for all the crime in her community? What will they feed their children?” They, “They can eat the welfare state?”
And it doesn’t even have to be an impoverished woman. It could be the middle class man who sees the possibility of a sudden health issue wiping him out financially. Or, any other such crises. Where are the civic safety nets?
And the libertarian agrees, again. “Yeah, yeah, that’s an issue. But somehow, someway, we’re still going to sell it to the American people. Down with the entitlement state! Once it’s down, the people will pick up the scattered family/community pieces out of necessity!” In short? The plan is to starve them into prudence and self-governance.
Oh, and as much as I hate it, the welfare state is helping the poor as we speak. Forgotten elderly, fatherless children, the ill, the displaced laborer…
What exactly do you libertarians plan to replace it with? Or, do you guys really think you’d be allowed to tear down the welfare state with nothing left in it’s place? It’ll never happen.
Ah, but I forget myself. The economically sensible thing to do is to abort the poor, talk up the legitimacy of elderly euthanasia (“Who wants to be a burden?! AmIright?”). All, while hoping that our wealth, and the advances of science-savior, will buy ourselves unimaginably long life through the vampiric creation-destruction of human life in a test tube before our own runs out. Like I said, monsters.
[quote]Dabba:
All I see are big spending so-called “conservatives” that usually happen to be socially conservative as well.[/quote]
They lost their senses and became Bush-Conservatives and Ron Paul-“Conservatives.”[/quote]
Sloth, this post makes you sound like one of those old people who talk about the good old days of the 1950s and “Leave it to Beaver.” You are very naive. Let me just take apart one of your arguments. I’ll do an easy one - this idea of knowing your neighbors. In the days of Leave it to Beaver, once a person started working for a company he or she was there for life. You worked at a company for 30-40 years, usually in the same location, then you retired. You died shortly thereafter. You bought a house and lived there until you died.
Today, the idea of working for one employer for life is laughable. Companies downsize and outsource all the time. Most people work for smaller companies with limited opportunities and benefits, so they change jobs. Some form their own businesses, which most would acknowledge is a great thing. If you still work for one of the mega multi-national companies, expect to be transferred to different job locations several times during your career. One of those transfers will likely be overseas. The workforce must remain mobile. It is natural that someone will not form strong ties with a neighbor they may not see in two years.
In addition to the need for mobility is time. In Leave it to Beaver world, you worked 9:00 to 5:00 and had weekends off. Today, if you work from 9:00 to 5:00 and have weekends off you have a part-time job. We have less time to socialize with people. Most people would rather spend their free time with families, which is a good thing, or with close friends that they’ve managed to remain in contact with over the years. This is also a good thing. I’d rather have a few close friends that I visit a few times a year and otherwise communicate with by email than try and strike up a friendship with a neighbor who may not even be here next month.
What changed? Well, in Leave it to Beaver days, the US was the world’s only economic superpower. The former USSR was a military superpower, but obviously its economy sucked. Europe was devastated after the war and needed to be rebuilt. Japan, too, was war torn. China was but a Third World country whose population road on bicycles, if they were lucky to have a bicycle. The US faced virtually no global competition. I hope I don’t need to educate you on today’s global economy.
Sure, we can try to somehow go back to Leave it to Beaver days. Companies could stop outsourcing work and return manufacturing to the US. Get ready to pay double what you pay now for a pair of shoes. Of course, most overseas operations exist in order to sell goods in that particular country - also known as exports. So closing down overseas operations will kill the export market. And we can pass laws that prevent companies from transferring employees and downsizing employees. After suffering a major economic depression, the US will re-emerge as a Third World nation. But hey, I’ll get to know my neighbors real well. We’ll all be living in boxes, and we’ll be able to talk to each other all day since we’ll all be unemployed. They’ll be lots of trust among neighbors since we’ll need to take turns standing guard against looters. Casual sex will disappear, too. As homeless people, we’ll all stink too bad to be able to even get close to one another.
There’s no way of going back to Leave it to Beaver. Anyone who understands economics knows this. Welcome to the future, Sloth.
[/quote]
I’ll try to make a suitable reply later. Some of what you’ve brought up, I actually raised (outsourcing) myself. So, this isn’t so much a refutation of my beliefs, but an admission that the libertarian dream was slain by Capitalism itself. So, as you say, there may very well not be a return of community civic life. However, in this you’ve provided a solid case for the continued existence of the welfare state. Because humanity on the whole wants it’s safety nets. And, if all capitalism will leave a man with is alienated, distant, consumer-strangers for neighbors…we’re going to look ouside of our communities for security. That’s just life.
Further, as multinational markets and companies get bigger, and bigger, and bigger, so will the governments and laws to regulate them. Welcome to the future…Global Market-Government. Where power and wealth will continue to centralize under the dominion of fewer and fewer hands both in the government and in the market. With wealth becoming increasinly concentrated, the welfare will have to get bigger and bigger. Think of it as paying for social stability. Trying to buy off a potential revolution, if you will.