Let's Talk About Health Care!

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]John S. wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you thought Emergency Rooms were busy now, it’s going to get worse I bet.

Look at Europe and Canada. They tell the story on socialized medicine. In canada There is a doctor shortage because of this, and in Europe well there is over a million people on a waiting list.

If the government wants to fix something they can regulate the cost any other option would fuck us over.[/quote]

I live in Canada.
A year ago i discovered a lump on my right testicle. A pretty size-able lump. I am in my early twenties.
I go to a general hospital so i can book an appointment for an ultra sound scan to see if it’s anything threatening.

I walk up to the man at the counter and tell him “I have a lump on my testicle, i need to get it checked out”.
He tells me no problem and says there is a waiting list.
I am ask him how long the waiting list is and he tells me “A year and a half”.

I am pretty much floored. I am a healthy young man. I don’t smoke, i don’t drink and i have a lump on my testicle that may or may not be cancerous. No deal, i gotta wait a year and a half for what may be cancer.

I went to a private doctor and got it checked out, it was only a cyst.
Even then, to think that there is a year and a half waiting list. It’s mind boggling.
The majority of the people i saw in that hospital while walking through it were old (+50 years of age).

22

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you thought Emergency Rooms were busy now, it’s going to get worse I bet.

just in the last 3 years, I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in ED traffic. due to dwindling reimbursements(read money) for healthcare means fewer hospitals, fewer private doctors, which means the hospitals that are still open are more busy.

not just sick people, but EDs are a dumping ground for law enforcement, mental health agencies and nursing homes who dont have the resources to deal with people with medical, or social or psychological issues.

jails used to have drunk tanks, medical facilities with a small staff, now if you are arrested, and get the hiccups, you end up in the ED cause the jails dont want the liability. not much of an exaggeration.

i could tell you how fucking easy it is to avoid going to jail in this state, and get a “free” trip to the ED. just say the magic words: “chest pain” or “i feel like i am a danger to self or others” boom, handcuffs off, your in the Emergency room.

at any given time in our 35 bed department, we have people waiting 12-48 hours taking up a valuable room needed for really sick patient waiting for mental health placement. now these often are NOT foaming at the mouth lunatics, but somebody who got drunk or high, made an ass of themselves in public or at home, and some good Samaritan or family member calls 911,

they say they are depressed, made a couple of superficial scratches to their wrists that dont even need a bandaid, and BOOM! all night stay in ED while mental health tries to place them in THEIR underfunded overburdened system. it is INSANE.[/quote]

Recently, a woman here in Los Angeles, went to the ER because she complained of having horrible pain in her abdomen. She called 911 from the ER waiting room, and the operator told her she couln’t help her since she was already in a hospital.

The woman made so much noise, the police were called, and dragged her out onto the sidewalk, where she died. She had peritonitis, which is very deadly, trust me I know I had it.

The ER charge nurse resigned while the police who dragged her out were put on leave during the investigation. Because of this, Martin Luther King Jr./ Drew Hospital has been shut down. The entire hospital is no longer open.

23

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you thought Emergency Rooms were busy now, it’s going to get worse I bet.

just in the last 3 years, I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in ED traffic. due to dwindling reimbursements(read money) for healthcare means fewer hospitals, fewer private doctors, which means the hospitals that are still open are more busy.

not just sick people, but EDs are a dumping ground for law enforcement, mental health agencies and nursing homes who dont have the resources to deal with people with medical, or social or psychological issues.

jails used to have drunk tanks, medical facilities with a small staff, now if you are arrested, and get the hiccups, you end up in the ED cause the jails dont want the liability. not much of an exaggeration.

i could tell you how fucking easy it is to avoid going to jail in this state, and get a “free” trip to the ED. just say the magic words: “chest pain” or “i feel like i am a danger to self or others” boom, handcuffs off, your in the Emergency room.

at any given time in our 35 bed department, we have people waiting 12-48 hours taking up a valuable room needed for really sick patient waiting for mental health placement. now these often are NOT foaming at the mouth lunatics, but somebody who got drunk or high, made an ass of themselves in public or at home, and some good Samaritan or family member calls 911,

they say they are depressed, made a couple of superficial scratches to their wrists that dont even need a bandaid, and BOOM! all night stay in ED while mental health tries to place them in THEIR underfunded overburdened system. it is INSANE.

Recently, a woman here in Los Angeles, went to the ER because she complained of having horrible pain in her abdomen. She called 911 from the ER waiting room, and the operator told her she couln’t help her since she was already in a hospital.

The woman made so much noise, the police were called, and dragged her out onto the sidewalk, where she died. She had peritonitis, which is very deadly, trust me I know I had it.

The ER charge nurse resigned while the police who dragged her out were put on leave during the investigation. Because of this, Martin Luther King Jr./ Drew Hospital has been shut down. The entire hospital is no longer open. [/quote]

that was a well publicized incident that made national news, your point being?

24

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you thought Emergency Rooms were busy now, it’s going to get worse I bet.

just in the last 3 years, I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in ED traffic. due to dwindling reimbursements(read money) for healthcare means fewer hospitals, fewer private doctors, which means the hospitals that are still open are more busy.

not just sick people, but EDs are a dumping ground for law enforcement, mental health agencies and nursing homes who dont have the resources to deal with people with medical, or social or psychological issues.

jails used to have drunk tanks, medical facilities with a small staff, now if you are arrested, and get the hiccups, you end up in the ED cause the jails dont want the liability. not much of an exaggeration.

i could tell you how fucking easy it is to avoid going to jail in this state, and get a “free” trip to the ED. just say the magic words: “chest pain” or “i feel like i am a danger to self or others” boom, handcuffs off, your in the Emergency room.

at any given time in our 35 bed department, we have people waiting 12-48 hours taking up a valuable room needed for really sick patient waiting for mental health placement. now these often are NOT foaming at the mouth lunatics, but somebody who got drunk or high, made an ass of themselves in public or at home, and some good Samaritan or family member calls 911,

they say they are depressed, made a couple of superficial scratches to their wrists that dont even need a bandaid, and BOOM! all night stay in ED while mental health tries to place them in THEIR underfunded overburdened system. it is INSANE.

Recently, a woman here in Los Angeles, went to the ER because she complained of having horrible pain in her abdomen. She called 911 from the ER waiting room, and the operator told her she couln’t help her since she was already in a hospital.

The woman made so much noise, the police were called, and dragged her out onto the sidewalk, where she died. She had peritonitis, which is very deadly, trust me I know I had it.

The ER charge nurse resigned while the police who dragged her out were put on leave during the investigation. Because of this, Martin Luther King Jr./ Drew Hospital has been shut down. The entire hospital is no longer open.

that was a well publicized incident that made national news, your point being? [/quote]

If perhaps the ER wasn’t so incredibly busy, they might have been able to tend to her promptly, SO SHE WOULDN’T HAVE DIED. I am rather shocked that you missed this.

25

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

what exactly do you mean by non-profit? I’m inclined to disagree on the very simple grounds that making doctors and other health care professionals work on an hourly wage in a non-profit setting is a great way to lose talent. High powered docs don’t want to go into a lower paying job. Hell, med school students often choose to go into medicine with the expectation of some great money.

I’m not a fan of the insurance companies getting their pound of flesh in the same way they do now. Costs are waaay too inflated. There are MANY problems with our system.

And honestly, I don’t know how to fix it, but I feel I know some ways to avoid making it worse—and I think killing profits is a great way to do that because the profit motive is probably the biggest drive to innovation, advancement, and improvement there is. There is a reason Canadian docs migrate here, and docs from Britain try to get out of there—its the lack of monetary incentive in their home countries.

There’s one rule in business…you get talent by paying for the best talent. If you don’t pay whats expected, people don’t want to work for you when they can go elsewhere, be it another state or another country.

You know as well as I do that one of the reasons socialism doesn’t work economically is that it kills the desire to excel by guaranteeing a wage–but a much lower wage than one might get–and making it difficult or impossible to move up from the set wage.

If for example I’m guaranteed 30,000 a year for just showing up to my job, but making it to 50,000 a year is prohibitively difficult, I’m going to be a bum on 30,000 because I don’t need to do shit to make that money. I just have to show my face.[/quote]

By nonprofit I mean just that, nonprofit. No group of shareholders or investors sitting behind some hospital taking their cut, no people who get paid just to shift money around (insurers), no drug companies making a buck to produce medication.

All of these things add tremendous cost to health care, since at every stage there is some one making large profits who has absolutely nothing to do with the actual treatment of a patient. Further, when I say doctors should be paid an hourly wage I don’t mean they are overpaid now or something like that. I think they should be paid some appropriately high wage–whatever they’re being paid now even–but hourly, not piecemeal.

But remember though, I asked all this in the context of whether or not it was needed in order to make health care efficient enough so that it is affordable. I’m not claiming that I KNOW this is what we need, just saying that some people advocate this and wondering whether such drastic steps are really needed to achieve the needed efficiency.

Anyway, I know some people are already foaming at the mouth… to avoid polarizing the issues, let me hedge my remarks further by saying that such a nonprofit health care system need not mean a government run socialistic health care system. Of course at some points government management will be needed, but government management already abounds in the system we have.

As for who pays for all this, most of the sensible people I’ve heard talk about the issue think that this sort of nonprofit health care should be paid for just as health care is now–partly by the government, partly by employers, and partly out of pocket by individuals. Further, I fail to see how a nonprofit model would necessarily “kill” innovation.

Normally I agree that it is best to leave the economy to the free market as much as possible. I wouldn’t want the government managing the production and distribution of food, for example.

Nevertheless I don’t look at issues through ideological glasses and automatically think that free market type policies are best for every aspect of the economy. Especially considering the ridiculous and ever growing cost of health care, it seems like we need to examine exactly how we as a society provide for our health care.

26

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HT:

GREAT thread!

You know what bothers me about all the “reform” talk?

I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE PUNDIT OR POLITITCIAN TALK ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL REFORMS THAT NEED TO OCCUR IN THE EXPECTATIONS OF AMERICANS. (Which also includes legal reform).

We have expectations of greater and greater care and technology at lesser and lesser cost.

Some areas:

The expectation to “do everything”, albiet often futilly, and at great cost, at the end of Life and with the micro-premature.

The expectation that death has to be “someones” fault, therefore they must pay.

The thought that having insurance entitles me to all the latest, greatest and expensive, although sometimes the “best” course of action may be with the least intervention.

The expectation to be seen “yesterday” for what amounts to minor illness.

The expectation that to sue is almost a Constitutional Right.

(Those are just a few for discussion).

Another sobering thought, HT, is that we are seeing less and less Medical Students go into Obstetrics and Internal Medicine despite 1) growth rates that have not substantially decreased and 2) an aging population.

Also, more and most hospitals and ER’s are closing (as noted above) with a greater burden being placed on already overburdened teaching institutions. Even teaching institutions are having to cut out many essential services.

Again…the attitude and expectations of Americans also needs to change…but no one is talking about it.

Mufasa

27

Another problem area is the uninsured or underinsured.

I’ve heard more that one person say “Hey…If I get sick or injured, they can’t deny me service”…

By example:

An injured motorcyclist ( who, by the way, was wearing no helmet on protective clothing…that’s another thread)…can incur cost in the millions.

If they are uninsured, someone pays. And if you think that Hospitals can simply “write off” millions of dollars and 1) continue to provide services and b) survive, you are mistaken.

These are tough, TOUGH issues, guys.

I give the President credit for at least TRYING to tackle them.

Mufasa

28

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I was briefly employed in an extension of the insurance side of the industry, so I had a bit of exposure to some of the issues.

It seems to me that one of the major problems with the current system is government intervention. HT has already mentioned amount of overhead caused by having to comply with all of the various regulations. In addition, Medicaid/Medicare play a large role in shaping healthcare, by, for example, determining what procedures are covered, how much can be charged for them, etc.

Government has also helped entrench the health insurance paradigm, both by providing government-funded health insurance, and by issuing various mandates.

Insurance itself is also a big part of the problem. First off, calling it insurance is a total misnomer, since the way it functions isn’t at all like any other kind of insurance.

Health insurance as it exists today is really just a form of socialism. And because a third party is providing the payment, the natural market forces that would keep prices in line with the services rendered can’t operate.

Ultimately, I think that the solution lies in the government getting out of the way, and letting individuals bear the costs of their own health care. I think this would result in several things:

  • Health care costs would come down significantly as healthcare providers are freed from having to deal with bureaucracy, etc.

  • People would do more to engage in preventative health care,
    since they’ll know that they’ll have to pay the costs otherwise

  • The market would produce solutions that function better than the current system. For instance, I might purchase a concierge healthcare plan for maintenance, set up a tax-exempt savings plan for major events not covered by the concierge plan (or perhaps by insurance that ONLY covers this type of situation), etc.

29

I’m in med school at the moment, and to sum things up, a lot of my fellow students are thinking along these lines:

I’m graduating with $200k debt, why would I enter family medicine when I could stay on for a few more years and get to:

  • learn more about a particular specialty (aka…nearly master a part of the body…a big motivational factor for us geeky types)
  • perform procedures so that my day isn’t completely routine visits
  • and most importantly, make more money to pay off this debt and work less hours (on average)

Altruism brought a lot of us here, but to ignore the fact that healthcare is a business is foolish. Perhaps realigning incentives to reward those who choose to enter family medicine or other first-line fields is a way forward as the demand increases. But, the way things stand now, entering those fields doesn’t make a lot of sense for the majority of future doctrs.

30

Mufasa, excellent point on the need to realign Americans expectations.

I think one of the biggest problems is that death must be “someone’s fault”. I have often thought over the years that it is in some way tragic that we lose the close acquaintance with death that our ancestors had 100+ years ago. To be sure, a very large positive aspect is present–mostly overriding any negative aspect to the technological progress of the last 100+ years.

However, in some way I think it makes us less willing to face the hard realities of life–we can delude ourselves with TV dramas and ESPN sports entertainment, with big screen TVs and new Audi’s or Chryslers or whatever, we can insulate ourselves our whole lives in suburbia or in social clubs or country clubs. But sooner or later reality knocks on our door in the way of tragedy.

The self delusion we seek to live our lives in then leads us to blame others. We need to find rationality in the tragic events, but life isn’t necessarily rational. Chance, chaos, and mistakes are as powerful a force in life, if not more powerful, that reason and rationality. Our ancestors knew the realities because they lived them. They accepted it as regrettable, but natural. It seems we want to disbelieve the naturalness of death sometimes.

31

Why are most medical professionals so health illiterate?

32

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
HT:

GREAT thread!

You know what bothers me about all the “reform” talk?

I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE PUNDIT OR POLITITCIAN TALK ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL REFORMS THAT NEED TO OCCUR IN THE EXPECTATIONS OF AMERICANS. (Which also includes legal reform).

We have expectations of greater and greater care and technology at lesser and lesser cost.

Some areas:

The expectation to “do everything”, albiet often futilly, and at great cost, at the end of Life and with the micro-premature.

The expectation that death has to be “someones” fault, therefore they must pay.

The thought that having insurance entitles me to all the latest, greatest and expensive, although sometimes the “best” course of action may be with the least intervention.

The expectation to be seen “yesterday” for what amounts to minor illness.

The expectation that to sue is almost a Constitutional Right.

(Those are just a few for discussion).

Another sobering thought, HT, is that we are seeing less and less Medical Students go into Obstetrics and Internal Medicine despite 1) growth rates that have not substantially decreased and 2) an aging population.

Also, more and most hospitals and ER’s are closing (as noted above) with a greater burden being placed on already overburdened teaching institutions. Even teaching institutions are having to cut out many essential services.

Again…the attitude and expectations of Americans also needs to change…but no one is talking about it.

Mufasa[/quote]

all good points mufasa, i agree completely. the argument is pointless, unless we, as you put, change the parameters of the argument to have these new expectations. as i said at first, the system cannot work like it is now. simple.

i almost jumped out of my scrubs when you made the statement about death, that it never just happens, but it is somebodies fault and somebody is liable. kudos.

example, mister X comes into the ED with chest pain(for the 5-6 time), he is 47 years old, morbidly obese, diet consists of fast food and fried twinkies, has multple medical conditions which he chooses to not be compliant with treatment, such as hypertension, diabetes, AND to top it all off he smokes a pack of cigarettes a day and drinks a 6 pack of beer each night.

now mister x is basically playing Russian roulette every day with about 3 bullets in the gun instead of one. he is a ticking time bomb. BUT, let us(the hospital and staff) make one mistake, and he has a bad outcome during that stay, then it is our fault?

33

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you thought Emergency Rooms were busy now, it’s going to get worse I bet.

just in the last 3 years, I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in ED traffic. due to dwindling reimbursements(read money) for healthcare means fewer hospitals, fewer private doctors, which means the hospitals that are still open are more busy.

not just sick people, but EDs are a dumping ground for law enforcement, mental health agencies and nursing homes who dont have the resources to deal with people with medical, or social or psychological issues.

jails used to have drunk tanks, medical facilities with a small staff, now if you are arrested, and get the hiccups, you end up in the ED cause the jails dont want the liability. not much of an exaggeration.

i could tell you how fucking easy it is to avoid going to jail in this state, and get a “free” trip to the ED. just say the magic words: “chest pain” or “i feel like i am a danger to self or others” boom, handcuffs off, your in the Emergency room.

at any given time in our 35 bed department, we have people waiting 12-48 hours taking up a valuable room needed for really sick patient waiting for mental health placement. now these often are NOT foaming at the mouth lunatics, but somebody who got drunk or high, made an ass of themselves in public or at home, and some good Samaritan or family member calls 911,

they say they are depressed, made a couple of superficial scratches to their wrists that dont even need a bandaid, and BOOM! all night stay in ED while mental health tries to place them in THEIR underfunded overburdened system. it is INSANE.

Recently, a woman here in Los Angeles, went to the ER because she complained of having horrible pain in her abdomen. She called 911 from the ER waiting room, and the operator told her she couln’t help her since she was already in a hospital.

The woman made so much noise, the police were called, and dragged her out onto the sidewalk, where she died. She had peritonitis, which is very deadly, trust me I know I had it.

The ER charge nurse resigned while the police who dragged her out were put on leave during the investigation. Because of this, Martin Luther King Jr./ Drew Hospital has been shut down. The entire hospital is no longer open.

that was a well publicized incident that made national news, your point being?

If perhaps the ER wasn’t so incredibly busy, they might have been able to tend to her promptly, SO SHE WOULDN’T HAVE DIED. I am rather shocked that you missed this.[/quote]

take it easy, i assumed since it was such a well known incident and discussed ad-nauseum in various media, that you had some angle or particular aspect of the case that you wanted to present to make a larger point. I dont shock so easy. i see death every day.

people die in front of me on a weekly basis. people drive up to the ED with their dead parents/grandparents in their car and still in their soiled pajamas. i see people crushed to pieces in horrible MVCs and shot and stabbed to hell all the time. i see young healthy college students who were playing soccer the day before come into the ED with septic meningitis and are dead in 48 hours.

i bet if i could get a hold of the details of that case(just a guess) especially the persons med hx and what other things were going on in that ED on that day, i bet the story would be a little different than how the media played it.

34

back to your point about death mufasa…

a russian nurse who lived and worked in Jerusalem for many years said it best when the discussion came to “hospital errors causing deaths”. he said that all over the world, people die every day, all the time for whatever reasons. but the ONE place somebody cannot die, is an american hospital.

35

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you thought Emergency Rooms were busy now, it’s going to get worse I bet.

just in the last 3 years, I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in ED traffic. due to dwindling reimbursements(read money) for healthcare means fewer hospitals, fewer private doctors, which means the hospitals that are still open are more busy.

not just sick people, but EDs are a dumping ground for law enforcement, mental health agencies and nursing homes who dont have the resources to deal with people with medical, or social or psychological issues.

jails used to have drunk tanks, medical facilities with a small staff, now if you are arrested, and get the hiccups, you end up in the ED cause the jails dont want the liability. not much of an exaggeration.

i could tell you how fucking easy it is to avoid going to jail in this state, and get a “free” trip to the ED. just say the magic words: “chest pain” or “i feel like i am a danger to self or others” boom, handcuffs off, your in the Emergency room.

at any given time in our 35 bed department, we have people waiting 12-48 hours taking up a valuable room needed for really sick patient waiting for mental health placement. now these often are NOT foaming at the mouth lunatics, but somebody who got drunk or high, made an ass of themselves in public or at home, and some good Samaritan or family member calls 911,

they say they are depressed, made a couple of superficial scratches to their wrists that dont even need a bandaid, and BOOM! all night stay in ED while mental health tries to place them in THEIR underfunded overburdened system. it is INSANE.

Recently, a woman here in Los Angeles, went to the ER because she complained of having horrible pain in her abdomen. She called 911 from the ER waiting room, and the operator told her she couln’t help her since she was already in a hospital.

The woman made so much noise, the police were called, and dragged her out onto the sidewalk, where she died. She had peritonitis, which is very deadly, trust me I know I had it.

The ER charge nurse resigned while the police who dragged her out were put on leave during the investigation. Because of this, Martin Luther King Jr./ Drew Hospital has been shut down. The entire hospital is no longer open.

that was a well publicized incident that made national news, your point being?

If perhaps the ER wasn’t so incredibly busy, they might have been able to tend to her promptly, SO SHE WOULDN’T HAVE DIED. I am rather shocked that you missed this.

take it easy, i assumed since it was such a well known incident and discussed ad-nauseum in various media, that you had some angle or particular aspect of the case that you wanted to present to make a larger point. I dont shock so easy. i see death every day.

people die in front of me on a weekly basis. people drive up to the ED with their dead parents/grandparents in their car and still in their soiled pajamas. i see people crushed to pieces in horrible MVCs and shot and stabbed to hell all the time. i see young healthy college students who were playing soccer the day before come into the ED with septic meningitis and are dead in 48 hours.

i bet if i could get a hold of the details of that case(just a guess) especially the persons med hx and what other things were going on in that ED on that day, i bet the story would be a little different than how the media played it. [/quote]

This is not a situation of someone being mangled or stabbed. That has no relevance in this situation. The way she was treated was a fucking disgrace, she died while laying down on a sidewalk outside an ER,after trying to get treatment.

You don’t see something wrong with this? This is ok to you? Her medical history was such that it made a charge nurse decide to resign before any investigation even began. That right there tells you something wasn’t right, and the patient is only being a patient.

What in her medical history would justify someone leaving her alone like that? Vomiting blood is not an indicator of some really bad shit going on? This probably won’t hit you, until it hits you. Until it’s you who needs the help only to be blown off, will you realize how bad it can be. I have seen this shit all the time while being in the ER, it’s pathetic.

36

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Another problem area is the uninsured or underinsured.

I’ve heard more that one person say “Hey…If I get sick or injured, they can’t deny me service”…

By example:

An injured motorcyclist ( who, by the way, was wearing no helmet on protective clothing…that’s another thread)…can incur cost in the millions.

If they are uninsured, someone pays. And if you think that Hospitals can simply “write off” millions of dollars and 1) continue to provide services and b) survive, you are mistaken.

These are tough, TOUGH issues, guys.

I give the President credit for at least TRYING to tackle them.

Mufasa

[/quote]

Mufasa,

I agree that I will give credit for him trying to improve the system, but I just don’t think that this is the solution. Dems talk about cleaning up the waste and fraud that plagues the system, and will ultimately free up huge sums of money.

If there is THIS much fraud and waste, then I suggest he focus on fixing that first so that whatever money has to generate will be less. I also don’t like that Pelosi said any left over money generated from the taxes will go to the national debt. But why? The tax was for medical care right? Not the debt. Why doesn’t she give the money back to those she taxed to get it in the first place.

I also don’t like the extortion tactics they are using to make this happen. Being taxed if you don’t use it? Come on, that’s mafia stuff right there.

37

[quote]belligerent wrote:
Why are most medical professionals so health illiterate?[/quote]

They’re not, they deal with an extreme of health a serious disease or injury state. Most docs know about fiber, better diets, and exercise. It’s just that the patients don’t want to listen. do you seriously think that we have all of these fatasses because of doctors? they don’t advocate candy, smokes, liquor, and laying on the couch.

38

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Another problem area is the uninsured or underinsured.

I’ve heard more that one person say “Hey…If I get sick or injured, they can’t deny me service”…

By example:

An injured motorcyclist ( who, by the way, was wearing no helmet on protective clothing…that’s another thread)…can incur cost in the millions.

If they are uninsured, someone pays. And if you think that Hospitals can simply “write off” millions of dollars and 1) continue to provide services and b) survive, you are mistaken.

These are tough, TOUGH issues, guys.

I give the President credit for at least TRYING to tackle them.

Mufasa

Mufasa,

I agree that I will give credit for him trying to improve the system, but I just don’t think that this is the solution. Dems talk about cleaning up the waste and fraud that plagues the system, and will ultimately free up huge sums of money.

If there is THIS much fraud and waste, then I suggest he focus on fixing that first so that whatever money has to generate will be less. I also don’t like that Pelosi said any left over money generated from the taxes will go to the national debt. But why? The tax was for medical care right? Not the debt. Why doesn’t she give the money back to those she taxed to get it in the first place.

I also don’t like the extortion tactics they are using to make this happen. Being taxed if you don’t use it? Come on, that’s mafia stuff right there. [/quote]
Everyone’s definition of waste fraud and abuse is different. Insurance companies often think of it as a legitimate claim. Believe me, i deal with it day after day.

39

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Another problem area is the uninsured or underinsured.

I’ve heard more that one person say “Hey…If I get sick or injured, they can’t deny me service”…

By example:

An injured motorcyclist ( who, by the way, was wearing no helmet on protective clothing…that’s another thread)…can incur cost in the millions.

If they are uninsured, someone pays. And if you think that Hospitals can simply “write off” millions of dollars and 1) continue to provide services and b) survive, you are mistaken.

These are tough, TOUGH issues, guys.

I give the President credit for at least TRYING to tackle them.

Mufasa

Mufasa,

I agree that I will give credit for him trying to improve the system, but I just don’t think that this is the solution. Dems talk about cleaning up the waste and fraud that plagues the system, and will ultimately free up huge sums of money.

If there is THIS much fraud and waste, then I suggest he focus on fixing that first so that whatever money has to generate will be less. I also don’t like that Pelosi said any left over money generated from the taxes will go to the national debt. But why? The tax was for medical care right? Not the debt. Why doesn’t she give the money back to those she taxed to get it in the first place.

I also don’t like the extortion tactics they are using to make this happen. Being taxed if you don’t use it? Come on, that’s mafia stuff right there. [/quote]

Max:

I agree.

As written, this is a TERRIBLE Bill (from all that I’ve been able to gather), especially for small business.

It needs to be killed. And they need to go back to the drawing board in a BI-PARTISAN fashion.

Will it happen?

I have NO idea.

Mufasa

40

One possibility to counter the built in costs of legal insurance: change the standard for medical malpractice from “negligence” to “recklessness” - as in, merely negligent behavior that results in harm is not actionable.

I do not necessarily endorse this proposal - it was suggested by someone I know. I offer it up as food for thought - if doctors know that they are legally insulated from malpractice claims until a higher standard of carelessness is satisfied, it frees up unnecessary tests and reduces the cost of insurance.

On the other hand, victims aren’t compensated for negligent behavior on the part of doctors.

Is it worth the trade-off?