Legitimate Revolution Possible?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
orion wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
A republic is a state or country that is not led by a monarch,[1][2] in which the people (or at least a part of its people)[3] have an impact on its government.

Democracy is a form of government in which the right to govern is vested in the citizens of a country or a state and exercised through a majority rule. Democracy in action is little more than mob rule.

We do have a republic.

A constitutional republic is one where laws are the highest rule of the land (above majority opinion) and the people through some means (elected representatives as in a representative democracy) have a say in the government.

We do have a constitutional republic, though it is getting closer and closer to a straight up representative democracy where empathy overrules the constitution.

No matter how much power the fed secures for itself, we still do NOT have a democracy. Voting citizens still directly decide very very few issues, and those that they do can generally still be overruled by representatives.

For the US to truly become a democracy, there would be a nation wide vote for every law and governmental decision.

In your definition there is no room for a democratic dictatorship, but dictators can and have been elected, even in republics.

An elected dictator would come from a republic (representative democracy), not a democracy. If he becomes a dictator, throwing off the review of the public, it is no longer even a republic, but becomes a dictatorship.

Democracies and representative democracies are generally transient states often ending in dictatorship. The founders of the US designed the government as a constitutional republic to prevent the transient nature of mob rule and the disastrous results.
[/quote]

Also, what you wrote is not quite true.

The Athenians as well as as the Romans knew elected dictatorships and for those dictators there was no review for a limited amount of time.

A democracy is perfectly compatible with a elected dictatorship and republics can at least become de facto dictatorships without violating the letter of the law.

82

[quote]orion wrote:

Also, what you wrote is not quite true.

The Athenians as well as as the Romans knew elected dictatorships and for those dictators there was no review for a limited amount of time.

A democracy is perfectly compatible with a elected dictatorship and republics can at least become de facto dictatorships without violating the letter of the law.

[/quote]

No, rule of law is not implied in a democracy or republic or representative democracy, which is why a constitutional republic designation is important.

The problem with a lot of these words is that they are not entirely distinct. Itâ??s like talking about a 4 sided shape using the words quadrilateral, rectangle, square, and rhombus. There is a lot of overlap. A representative democracy is a type of republic. If you really get technical, a democracy is too. However, generally for all intense and purpose a republic has almost always been a representative democracy.

As for dictatorships from democracy, all we are disagreeing on is semantics. Yes, I agree that representative democracies often lead to dictatorships. I just stop referring to them as republics once they have a dictator.

83

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
<<< semantics. >>>
[/quote]

This is a good point.

At bottom, who cares what terms and labels are used. This nation was founded to be a system of self governance facilitated by freely elected representatives making up a central government with intentionally, very intentionally limited powers. Call that whatever you want.

From day one, by it’s very nature, that system depended precariously on the voluntary character of we the people.

For the sake of brevity fast forward to today. It still does and we now have a populace that is both dependent on and terrified of the government that was designed precisely NOT to be able to do either of those things. Call that whatever you want too. Whatever that is, it ain’t the plan.

I wonder what those opponents of the stamp act would have thought of the current tax code and man eating predatory IRS unleashed to enforce it.

84

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
<<< semantics. >>>

This is a good point.

At bottom, who cares what terms and labels are used. This nation was founded to be a system of self governance facilitated by freely elected representatives making up a central government with intentionally, very intentionally limited powers. Call that whatever you want.

From day one, by it’s very nature, that system depended precariously on the voluntary character of we the people.

For the sake of brevity fast forward to today. It still does and we now have a populace that is both dependent on and terrified of the government that was designed precisely NOT to be able to do either of those things. Call that whatever you want too. Whatever that is, it ain’t the plan.

I wonder what those opponents of the stamp act would have thought of the current tax code and man eating predatory IRS unleashed to enforce it.[/quote]

I’m thinking that if the ridiculous taxes get passed for things like soft drinks, we should start having “coke parties” rather than tea parties.

85

[quote]orion wrote:
Good trick actually, because no one is more hopelessly enslaved than someone who believes he is still free.

Even when they have to smuggle fireworks out of Indian reservations to celebrate their “freedom”.
[/quote]

Win.

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Laws are made using democracy. The US is a democracy.