Learning About Obama Care

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
It’s Socialism at it’s finest.

CS[/quote]

I disagree , it is capitalism at it’s finest
[/quote]

True, the respect for private capital and the free decisions of the customers is practically exemplified in the US health care system.

No, really, you cannot even thing “cutthroat competition” without the US health care system coming to mind.

Which is of course why the services get cheaper and better by the minute. [/quote]

You don’t understand the system.
First the problem wasn’t and never was insurance. Insurance was a symptom, not the problem in itself. The problem with healthcare in America has several problems all of it centered around cost.
An overbearing pharmacological system devoid of competitive forces. No foreign drugs, no foreign medical devices. You open that up and you’d need to sell your pharmaceutical stocks because those bitches would fall like a stone.
No proper regulatory processes in place. Companies can sell drugs for what ever they want, while they sell them for a fraction to foreign countries. Drugs need to be the same across the board. Why does a bag of saline cost $200 dollars when it costs $.01 to make? R & D my ass.

Bottom line obama care made a bad situation worse. It would have been cheaper for everybody if the government just bought 31 million people coverage for 10 years, than this idiotic plan.
[/quote]

I believe I understand completely, I would agree with most of your statement , But insurance maybe was not a problem years ago but today they are definitely are a problem , today they are a cartel controlling all aspects of health care .

Please gold bar me Puss
[/quote]

I am not saying insurance companies are great, nor that they are not taking advantage, but they aren’t the main problem. If health care was affordable then we wouldn’t need insurance. Cost is the issue.
We are being donkey fucked. But obamacare didn’t help, it joined in and left splinters. Now we are being fucked even harder, so that a few can be fucked microscopically less. It may not hurt quite as add, but your still crapping seamen in the end.
[/quote]

They may not be the main problem but they are a big part of the whole problem.

Some how Americans think you can cut costs to the ninth degree , make a huge profit and do it all cheaper than a nonprofit organization[/quote]

Yeah, that is because that is usually true when that “non profit organization” is the government.

42

[quote]jre67t wrote:
Like always Gambit attacking the words instead of the issue. Was not Obamacare supposed to lower cost and provide free Health care to all? Right just like he promised. Stay classy and on topic homeboy[/quote]

There are a few people on here who are nice enough to write politely and with comprehensible grammar. I tend to respond to the issues they bring up.

43

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]jre67t wrote:
Like always Gambit attacking the words instead of the issue. Was not Obamacare supposed to lower cost and provide free Health care to all? Right just like he promised. Stay classy and on topic homeboy[/quote]

There are a few people on here who are nice enough to write politely and with comprehensible grammar. I tend to respond to the issues they bring up.

[/quote]

Yeah well, see if you stay polite if the 23th retard with dyslexia calls you a Nazi.

Beyond a certain point you need to break out the cat pics.

44

[quote]orion wrote:

Oh well, could we like, build a relatively weak federal government with relatively strong states rights so that they could keep each other in check?

Chances are that might work quite well for a hundred years or so.

[/quote]

Beautiful. Well said.

45

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
It’s Socialism at it’s finest.

CS[/quote]

I disagree , it is capitalism at it’s finest
[/quote]

True, the respect for private capital and the free decisions of the customers is practically exemplified in the US health care system.

No, really, you cannot even thing “cutthroat competition” without the US health care system coming to mind.

Which is of course why the services get cheaper and better by the minute. [/quote]

You don’t understand the system.
First the problem wasn’t and never was insurance. Insurance was a symptom, not the problem in itself. The problem with healthcare in America has several problems all of it centered around cost.
An overbearing pharmacological system devoid of competitive forces. No foreign drugs, no foreign medical devices. You open that up and you’d need to sell your pharmaceutical stocks because those bitches would fall like a stone.
No proper regulatory processes in place. Companies can sell drugs for what ever they want, while they sell them for a fraction to foreign countries. Drugs need to be the same across the board. Why does a bag of saline cost $200 dollars when it costs $.01 to make? R & D my ass.

Bottom line obama care made a bad situation worse. It would have been cheaper for everybody if the government just bought 31 million people coverage for 10 years, than this idiotic plan.
[/quote]

I believe I understand completely, I would agree with most of your statement , But insurance maybe was not a problem years ago but today they are definitely are a problem , today they are a cartel controlling all aspects of health care .

Please gold bar me Puss
[/quote]

I am not saying insurance companies are great, nor that they are not taking advantage, but they aren’t the main problem. If health care was affordable then we wouldn’t need insurance. Cost is the issue.
We are being donkey fucked. But obamacare didn’t help, it joined in and left splinters. Now we are being fucked even harder, so that a few can be fucked microscopically less. It may not hurt quite as add, but your still crapping seamen in the end.
[/quote]

They may not be the main problem but they are a big part of the whole problem.

Some how Americans think you can cut costs to the ninth degree , make a huge profit and do it all cheaper than a nonprofit organization[/quote]

Yeah, that is because that is usually true when that “non profit organization” is the government. [/quote]

Reform would be adequate , I believe the answer is to take profit out of health care and in some cases like the purchase of expensive equipment Socialize it.

46

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]jre67t wrote:
Like always Gambit attacking the words instead of the issue. Was not Obamacare supposed to lower cost and provide free Health care to all? Right just like he promised. Stay classy and on topic homeboy[/quote]

There are a few people on here who are nice enough to write politely and with comprehensible grammar. I tend to respond to the issues they bring up.

[/quote]

:slight_smile:

47

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Oh well, could we like, build a relatively weak federal government with relatively strong states rights so that they could keep each other in check?

Chances are that might work quite well for a hundred years or so.

[/quote]

Beautiful. Well said.[/quote]

I believe that was the intention of the founding fathers but America is a different animal now , the only similarity is that we are a Republic

48

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
It’s Socialism at it’s finest.

CS[/quote]

I disagree , it is capitalism at it’s finest
[/quote]

True, the respect for private capital and the free decisions of the customers is practically exemplified in the US health care system.

No, really, you cannot even thing “cutthroat competition” without the US health care system coming to mind.

Which is of course why the services get cheaper and better by the minute. [/quote]

You don’t understand the system.
First the problem wasn’t and never was insurance. Insurance was a symptom, not the problem in itself. The problem with healthcare in America has several problems all of it centered around cost.
An overbearing pharmacological system devoid of competitive forces. No foreign drugs, no foreign medical devices. You open that up and you’d need to sell your pharmaceutical stocks because those bitches would fall like a stone.
No proper regulatory processes in place. Companies can sell drugs for what ever they want, while they sell them for a fraction to foreign countries. Drugs need to be the same across the board. Why does a bag of saline cost $200 dollars when it costs $.01 to make? R & D my ass.

Bottom line obama care made a bad situation worse. It would have been cheaper for everybody if the government just bought 31 million people coverage for 10 years, than this idiotic plan.
[/quote]

I believe I understand completely, I would agree with most of your statement , But insurance maybe was not a problem years ago but today they are definitely are a problem , today they are a cartel controlling all aspects of health care .

Please gold bar me Puss
[/quote]

I am not saying insurance companies are great, nor that they are not taking advantage, but they aren’t the main problem. If health care was affordable then we wouldn’t need insurance. Cost is the issue.
We are being donkey fucked. But obamacare didn’t help, it joined in and left splinters. Now we are being fucked even harder, so that a few can be fucked microscopically less. It may not hurt quite as add, but your still crapping seamen in the end.
[/quote]

They may not be the main problem but they are a big part of the whole problem.

Some how Americans think you can cut costs to the ninth degree , make a huge profit and do it all cheaper than a nonprofit organization[/quote]

Yeah, that is because that is usually true when that “non profit organization” is the government. [/quote]

Reform would be adequate , I believe the answer is to take profit out of health care and in some cases like the purchase of expensive equipment Socialize it.
[/quote]

Uhu…

That is one of the answers Marx gave why socialism is superior to capitalism, turns out that it does not quite work that way.

You need to throw a “OMGDZ the cost of competition is too high! Less competition more money for treatment!” in there though to have the whole package.

Not that it makes more sense then, but as a head nod to Karl.

49

Since Obamacare?s Passage, Millions Have Lost Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance | The Weekly Standard
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-s-passage-millions-have-lost-employer-sponsored-health-insurance_607994.html

50

[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Since Obamacare?s Passage, Millions Have Lost Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance | The Weekly Standard
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-s-passage-millions-have-lost-employer-sponsored-health-insurance_607994.html[/quote]
This is what those racist tea partiers wherre talking about but no one listened because you know it’s easier to name call and label than to actually debate and learn

51

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
It’s Socialism at it’s finest.

CS[/quote]

I disagree , it is capitalism at it’s finest
[/quote]

True, the respect for private capital and the free decisions of the customers is practically exemplified in the US health care system.

No, really, you cannot even thing “cutthroat competition” without the US health care system coming to mind.

Which is of course why the services get cheaper and better by the minute. [/quote]

You don’t understand the system.
First the problem wasn’t and never was insurance. Insurance was a symptom, not the problem in itself. The problem with healthcare in America has several problems all of it centered around cost.
An overbearing pharmacological system devoid of competitive forces. No foreign drugs, no foreign medical devices. You open that up and you’d need to sell your pharmaceutical stocks because those bitches would fall like a stone.
No proper regulatory processes in place. Companies can sell drugs for what ever they want, while they sell them for a fraction to foreign countries. Drugs need to be the same across the board. Why does a bag of saline cost $200 dollars when it costs $.01 to make? R & D my ass.

Bottom line obama care made a bad situation worse. It would have been cheaper for everybody if the government just bought 31 million people coverage for 10 years, than this idiotic plan.
[/quote]

I believe I understand completely, I would agree with most of your statement , But insurance maybe was not a problem years ago but today they are definitely are a problem , today they are a cartel controlling all aspects of health care .

Please gold bar me Puss
[/quote]

I am not saying insurance companies are great, nor that they are not taking advantage, but they aren’t the main problem. If health care was affordable then we wouldn’t need insurance. Cost is the issue.
We are being donkey fucked. But obamacare didn’t help, it joined in and left splinters. Now we are being fucked even harder, so that a few can be fucked microscopically less. It may not hurt quite as add, but your still crapping seamen in the end.
[/quote]

They may not be the main problem but they are a big part of the whole problem.

Some how Americans think you can cut costs to the ninth degree , make a huge profit and do it all cheaper than a nonprofit organization[/quote]

Yeah, that is because that is usually true when that “non profit organization” is the government. [/quote]

Reform would be adequate , I believe the answer is to take profit out of health care and in some cases like the purchase of expensive equipment Socialize it.
[/quote]

Uhu…

That is one of the answers Marx gave why socialism is superior to capitalism, turns out that it does not quite work that way.

You need to throw a “OMGDZ the cost of competition is too high! Less competition more money for treatment!” in there though to have the whole package.

Not that it makes more sense then, but as a head nod to Karl.
[/quote]

I personally do not feel Socialism is superior to Capitalism , I do how ever feel that America was supposed to take the best from ALL systems , some where down the way the Republicans convinced us that we were meant to be a Capitalistic society

52

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
It’s Socialism at it’s finest.

CS[/quote]

I disagree , it is capitalism at it’s finest
[/quote]

True, the respect for private capital and the free decisions of the customers is practically exemplified in the US health care system.

No, really, you cannot even thing “cutthroat competition” without the US health care system coming to mind.

Which is of course why the services get cheaper and better by the minute. [/quote]

You don’t understand the system.
First the problem wasn’t and never was insurance. Insurance was a symptom, not the problem in itself. The problem with healthcare in America has several problems all of it centered around cost.
An overbearing pharmacological system devoid of competitive forces. No foreign drugs, no foreign medical devices. You open that up and you’d need to sell your pharmaceutical stocks because those bitches would fall like a stone.
No proper regulatory processes in place. Companies can sell drugs for what ever they want, while they sell them for a fraction to foreign countries. Drugs need to be the same across the board. Why does a bag of saline cost $200 dollars when it costs $.01 to make? R & D my ass.

Bottom line obama care made a bad situation worse. It would have been cheaper for everybody if the government just bought 31 million people coverage for 10 years, than this idiotic plan.
[/quote]

I believe I understand completely, I would agree with most of your statement , But insurance maybe was not a problem years ago but today they are definitely are a problem , today they are a cartel controlling all aspects of health care .

Please gold bar me Puss
[/quote]

I am not saying insurance companies are great, nor that they are not taking advantage, but they aren’t the main problem. If health care was affordable then we wouldn’t need insurance. Cost is the issue.
We are being donkey fucked. But obamacare didn’t help, it joined in and left splinters. Now we are being fucked even harder, so that a few can be fucked microscopically less. It may not hurt quite as add, but your still crapping seamen in the end.
[/quote]

They may not be the main problem but they are a big part of the whole problem.

Some how Americans think you can cut costs to the ninth degree , make a huge profit and do it all cheaper than a nonprofit organization[/quote]

Yeah, that is because that is usually true when that “non profit organization” is the government. [/quote]

Reform would be adequate , I believe the answer is to take profit out of health care and in some cases like the purchase of expensive equipment Socialize it.
[/quote]

Uhu…

That is one of the answers Marx gave why socialism is superior to capitalism, turns out that it does not quite work that way.

You need to throw a “OMGDZ the cost of competition is too high! Less competition more money for treatment!” in there though to have the whole package.

Not that it makes more sense then, but as a head nod to Karl.
[/quote]

I personally do not feel Socialism is superior to Capitalism , I do how ever feel that America was supposed to take the best from ALL systems , some where down the way the Republicans convinced us that we were meant to be a Capitalistic society[/quote]

You were meant to be a free society, that kind of leads to capitalism all by itself.

The only way to go the etatist route is to strike at the roots of capitalism, freedom.

Also, what is “the best”?

Sounds good in theory, the moment you make practical proposals you will have to make a decision what you deem to be “the best”. Other people disagree.

53

[quote]jre67t wrote:
You would think that Obamacare would make health insurance cheaper, but we got ass raped without lube. Hell starting next year I have to pay an extra 100 a month just to keep my current plan.
Hopefully it will be repealed hence it going to the supreme court and the libs trying to discredit Judge Clarence Thomas, who by the way is black. His health care plan will resurface just in time for re-election. [/quote]

One problem this mandate trys to solve is covering more people without health care insurance. When those who have no health care go to the emergency room, we the ones with insurance pay in terms of increased costs because of them. Secondly, we need to end health care for profit. There are administrative costs , advertizing cost, salaries to CEO’S that add to the cost of health care. If there was a single payer system those cost would be eliminated.

I am not in favor of the new law, for the reasons i stated above, Health care isn’t a thing one should make a profit off of. Incidentally I live in Massachusetts and we have Romney Care ok. If you don’t have health insurance and you earn a really low amount of money you wouldn’t have to pay a penalty. What that amount is for an individual or a family of various sizes i am not certain, but it could be found out. Its fine that more people are paying into the system but its not bringing down the cost. Why? Because we still have health care for profit!! And that is the root of the crisis. And with the system we have health care is rationed,and there is always on the part of the Insurance companies to refuse to pay or to drag out payment to a provider or come up with grounds for not paying at all.

One thing insurance companies are doing is making us pay for more and more of services. For example we never had to pay for labs ok, but not you have to pay the first 250 dollars, Co-pays have gone up steadily, although seems like in the last 18 months they have stabilized.
If you go to a hospital or doctor out of the system you incur more of the cost. Also in-state if you go to say Two of the best hospitals in the world, Massachusetts General and Brigham&Woman’s hospital you pay more up front. Why? because doctors there are going to do what’s best for the patient and not what’s best for the bottom line of insurance companies.
also part of the craziness of the system is, say you need to go for physical therapy, you must notify the insurance company prior to going and you must have a doctors orders… Yes that’s not so bad but its more administrative cost plus you as the patient have to do some of their administrative work.

54

For those against the mandate I’d like to know your opinion on the following.

  1. The millions who lose insurance.

  2. Uninsured people getting treatment for whatever reason and driving up overall costs anyway.

  3. The root of the problem being healthcare for profit, as long as this happens costs will be higher for consumers.

55

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
For those against the mandate I’d like to know your opinion on the following.

  1. The millions who lose insurance.

  2. Uninsured people getting treatment for whatever reason and driving up overall costs anyway.

  3. The root of the problem being healthcare for profit, as long as this happens costs will be higher for consumers.[/quote]

All of those are inconsequential to the main problem. The root of the matter is that the federal government does not have the right or the authority to force you to enter into a market, or to force you into a contract. That’s where it starts and stops for me.

56

And as for #3, a large chunk of the inefficiency is due to the fact that competition between insurance companies is artificially stifled, and as such does not allow for the natural market corrections to competition (ie: lower prices and more service options). Whether or not that would lead to a cheaper, in absolute terms, insurance market than a non-for-profit world I do not know.

I do know however, that human nature dictates for-profit behavior in the current world, and I suspect that any idea that a non-profit market for insurance can exist–in real life–is chimerical at best and at worst outright Quixotic.

57

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

  1. The root of the problem being healthcare for profit, as long as this happens costs will be higher for consumers.[/quote]

You know, ever since Marx wrote that it seems to make perfect sense and it never works.

I mean, what about them fucking farmers?

They PROFIT from other peoples need to eat!

Lets us socialize farms so that eeeeeeeveryone has enough to eat.

Unfortunately that only leads to mass starvation.

58

Actually, sometimes socialized agriculture works pretty well.
See the USA for example.

59

[quote]kamui wrote:
Actually, sometimes socialized agriculture works pretty well.
See the USA for example. [/quote]

In a free market setting?

All right, just kidding.

At least they have competition?

A functioning market which indicates the relative scarcity of resources?

60

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
And as for #3, a large chunk of the inefficiency is due to the fact that competition between insurance companies is artificially stifled, and as such does not allow for the natural market corrections to competition (ie: lower prices and more service options). Whether or not that would lead to a cheaper, in absolute terms, insurance market than a non-for-profit world I do not know.

I do know however, that human nature dictates for-profit behavior in the current world, and I suspect that any idea that a non-profit market for insurance can exist–in real life–is chimerical at best and at worst outright Quixotic.[/quote]

No your last sentence is non-sense. or at best ideology. There is nothing in human nature that is dictating profit motive here. Its all about our system and the fact that insurance companies have been allowed to enter the field of health care, you can thank Reagan for that, and that is ideology,a decision to do that, has nothing to do with human nature.

If the federal government extended medicare for all we would have a better system, were on it when they turned 65 that also had to have a secondary insurance ok. . There are other countries who have a version of single payer health care, its a reality.
What is a perversion is that people should get rich off the that that human beings get sick and need care. That’s part of being human and having a single payer system would be good for all American’s, their would be no more struggles between having enough money to pay for ones health care, drugs etc and being able to live in your house or to put food on the table.

Are you an employee of an insurance company that is into selling health care plans? A CEO of a big company perhaps?