Well just in my opinion, no I’d call it “normal” or “standard” volume I guess. I think 9-12 sets per muscle is the money zone and anything above that could be considered high volume. But again that’s just me!
What do you consider an Intermediate?
“Do you associate closely with bodybuilders, both drug aided AND natural? That is, are you on the “inside?” I don’t mean compete per se”
No, just recreationally in both.
“why does every successful natural physique athlete use them?”
Which ones? All the sample routines I have seen Brian Whitacre’s, Jeff Alberts, Alberto Nunez for example are high frequency. Others, that use what would be “body part splits” have extra back days, full body days, etc… to get extra work done.
Brick, I do not know if your diet has changed recently but, do you take any supplements? Do you believe in peri-workout nutrition in that it will give better/faster muscle gains?
@xXSeraphimXx pr otein powder for one of my snacks, with an apple and two slices Sprouted bread and peanut butter. BCAAs if doing pre breakfast intervals. That’s it.
I eat a meal after the workout.
5 minutes of googling turned up Jim Cordova, Cleveland Thomas, Chris Nsubuga and then I got bored and couldn’t be arsed to google any more.
With the exception of Cordova, those were just random names I picked off of the WNBF website. I don’t claim to know any of them personally.
So they exist, these bodypart splitters. Lurking in the shadows. Biding their time…
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I asked about naturals…
See what I did there…
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Lol there is so much nonsense and dogma on the internet people just don’t seem to be able to use basic common sense. Muscle growth is SLOW. It takes YEARS to build a solid base of muscle. There is simply no reason to neglect bodyparts from the start. You’re not going to suddenly put an inch on your arms in 3 months after spending years building everything else while neglecting them. It’s going to take a long time along with a need to further increase bodyweight even at that stage.
I have trained with mostly assisted bodybuilders/coaches(some pretty high level where I’m from) since the 90s so when I see videos of bodybuilders using these methods, I normally assume this is not what they do in the off season or they are purposefully using lighter weights for less joint stress.
It used to be go heavy and basic in the off season and use higher reps/intensity methods when cutting. This is still being utilized with good results over here although the case for natural vs assisted training can certainly be made for the latter lol.
I’m not disputing anything in your post, just stating that assisted training doesn’t mean you HAVE TO do excessive volume for optimal results. It just means: YOU CAN hahah!
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I think it’s important to eat shortly after lifting. But I’m not into the whole notion that you must start drinking carbs and protein as soon as you finish your last set or you’ll lose muscle.
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In a certain framework, NOT the framework of upper-lower or full-body or that has one doing two specific/targeted body part sessions per week. And it depends on what one needs. Considering I don’t do any bent legged deadlift variation, my quads and hams only get hit once every six days (MAYBE there’s some ham stimulation from bent over rows on back day).
Also, if I recall correctly, without looking back, there has been only four adjustments to my diet and cardio, with this last adjustment having me lose EIGHT pounds in the past month! With this last adjustment, I felt like I was on fire when it was made, but I gotta say, after this one month period, I AM feeling it. Well, that’s contest prep, I’ve learned and we try to do this safely, albeit inherently uncomfortably. 
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@max13 Regarding splits being a matter of refining versus other programs being a matter of packing on straight mass:
Refining IS packing on mass. And it’s done by proper exercise sequencing and selection. Say one is arms-dominant (eg, me) and needs to bring up the torso no matter how much “adding weight to the bar” one does, or tries to do so, this problem will not be corrected just by doing so. That is, it won’t just be a matter of adding weight to bent over rows and bench presses. It didn’t work for me, and it didn’t even work for John Meadows (who is leaps and bounds ahead of what I’d ever be, even if I went the assisted route).
A split includes row variations, squat variations, deadlift variations, bench press variations, shoulder press variations, chin-up/pullup variations, and so on. So if some guy is dumbbell pressing 80 pound dumbbells today and two to three years later is pressing 110 pound dumbbells, or is stiff legged deadlifting 225 pounds today and 315 two years later, then obviously he is “chasing weight” and making progress in mass… EVEN if these exercises are preceded by isolation exercises like flies and glut ham raises or leg curls (which should be increased in weight also). If the guy is pre exhausting his pecs with flies with 50 pounders today and then two years later is doing flies with 80 pounders, then he is still laying down mass.
I’m REALLY not trying to be a smartass–again, REALLY–but I don’t know why people think a guy on a split is not busting his ass and just leisurely polishing off a physique.
I finish the following leg workout huffing and puffing and I’d like to see how anyone feels on it if they give good effort. It’s simply, but it’s a sequence that works for me. And the rest is minimal (like 2 or 2.5 min in between the big lifts and less on the others, like 45 to 60 seconds between calf raises).
GHR’s
Leg curls
Lunges or dumbbell split squats with rear leg on bench (why is this called >Bulgarian?)
Safety bar squats
leg extensions
Dumbbell stiff legged deadlifts
seated calf raises
straight leg reclined machine calf raises (feels a lot better than a stack on your back)
Sets and reps: 3-4 sets of 8 -12 reps
I don’t know how anyone would come out of this workout feeling like he was just polishing stuff off. When I started pre-exhausting before squats, I had to lower the weight to 225!!! And before that, I could routinely rep out with 315 for 18 to 20 reps!
Gotcha, great post @BrickHead. Of course I wasn’t implying that those following a split are not working hard. My original entry into this discussion was on the basis of what to recommend to a first-time lifter, the most basic beginner who has no idea what their goals are and is stepping in the gym for the first time.
I think at least 90% of first timers (myself included) start with a bodypart split. Mostly because they found a routine in an article or they hear their friends saying “today is chest day” and just copy that. My thought just being that the skinny beginner would get more out of bench pressing and dips than say, cable crossovers and tricep kickbacks. But maybe I’m wrong about that too?
Which of course you covered, being that the issue is exercise selection, steady progression, and proper intensity and volume over the actual split. Maybe its easier if I just ask.
What would you recommend me if I came to you as someone who has never set foot in a gym before?
Boom! A lot of beginner competitors seem to think that they have to make changes every week, or that if the scale doesn’t register a drop one week, that they immediately have to go crazy and start adjusting every variable in their plan. The body doesn’t always acclimate as quickly as this way of thinking might indicate. There are times when you can make one small tweak and “ride it out” for a considerable length of time (ie. the last adjustment we made). Other times, the body seems to be putting up a fight with each and every alteration - ask Rob Stein about that -lol.
I think seeing the stark differences between Brick n Rob’s preps (in their respective threads) really shines light on how it’s not always a cookie cutter approach you can just blindly follow en route to the stage.
S
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I would recommend a full body program done three times per week–any balanced full body program that is.
I recommend 6 to 8 exercises covering the whole body, with 2 or 3 sets each, finished far away from failure, to start out.
After proper form is learned and the person gets in decent shape, then I’d ask what they ultimately want to achieve.
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What exactly are you doing for cardio at this point?
Daily 30 minute walk before breakfast no matter if it’s a weight or interval day. I walk as fast as possible; any faster would be a jog.
Twice every six days is 25 min of intervals followed by half hour of steady state.
Every leg day has 30 min steady state after the weights.
Every interval day is low carb. 
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