Leaked Cables, Cuban Healthcare System

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan, the best health care system is the one you never have to use. Cubans generally are healthier than Americans, so in this respect they win the argument. But should you become ill, where do you want to be?

Ryan, I came from Socialism, and I have seen some of the “perks” that it can offer to it’s people. The problem is, it would not work here because our level of political corruption would prevent it from happening. We do not have a government here that is trustworthy, which is why I am against raising taxes. Why give such a criminal entity more money to harm us with? If we had a government that behaved the way it should, we probably could rely on it more for responsible social services, but the truth of the matter is that we don’t. Notice I said responsible, meaning that tax payers are not gouged, and those accessing those social programs are not taking advantage of it. We have not had a government body that was truly in the interest of the people in many years, thanks to lobbyist groups, special interests, and unions. [/quote]

I agree with your entire post.
Perhaps comparing US and Cuban healthcare, you could look at it like US is the heavyweight champion, while Cuba makes a good run pound-for-pound. yes/no?

103

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan, the best health care system is the one you never have to use. Cubans generally are healthier than Americans, so in this respect they win the argument. But should you become ill, where do you want to be?

Ryan, I came from Socialism, and I have seen some of the “perks” that it can offer to it’s people. The problem is, it would not work here because our level of political corruption would prevent it from happening. We do not have a government here that is trustworthy, which is why I am against raising taxes. Why give such a criminal entity more money to harm us with? If we had a government that behaved the way it should, we probably could rely on it more for responsible social services, but the truth of the matter is that we don’t. Notice I said responsible, meaning that tax payers are not gouged, and those accessing those social programs are not taking advantage of it. We have not had a government body that was truly in the interest of the people in many years, thanks to lobbyist groups, special interests, and unions. [/quote]

I agree with your entire post.
Perhaps comparing US and Cuban healthcare, you could look at it like US is the heavyweight champion, while Cuba makes a good run pound-for-pound. yes/no?[/quote]

I would describe the US as a country where it helps you help yourself, while Cuba has it’s government do it for you. This is the idea behind the American Dream, it’s all up to you. It’s in your hands.

104

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan, the best health care system is the one you never have to use. Cubans generally are healthier than Americans, so in this respect they win the argument. But should you become ill, where do you want to be?

Ryan, I came from Socialism, and I have seen some of the “perks” that it can offer to it’s people. The problem is, it would not work here because our level of political corruption would prevent it from happening. We do not have a government here that is trustworthy, which is why I am against raising taxes. Why give such a criminal entity more money to harm us with? If we had a government that behaved the way it should, we probably could rely on it more for responsible social services, but the truth of the matter is that we don’t. Notice I said responsible, meaning that tax payers are not gouged, and those accessing those social programs are not taking advantage of it. We have not had a government body that was truly in the interest of the people in many years, thanks to lobbyist groups, special interests, and unions. [/quote]

I agree with your entire post.
Perhaps comparing US and Cuban healthcare, you could look at it like US is the heavyweight champion, while Cuba makes a good run pound-for-pound. yes/no?[/quote]

I would describe the US as a country where it helps you help yourself, while Cuba has it’s government do it for you. This is the idea behind the American Dream, it’s all up to you. It’s in your hands. [/quote]

Ummm, are you sure you mean what you just said? I’ve heard the words ‘nanny-state’ thrown around here quite a bit, and judging from your welfare programs, your statement is incorrect to a certain degree.
I think your statement is very true in the hearts and minds of those that want a better life and are willing to work towards that goal, but not quite in reality, to a certain degree of course.

105

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:So the US has the power to sue the EU, Russia, India, China or Japan?

We tremble in our boots.

Even Canada told them where they could stick it.

[/quote]

Well, most countries do take the “suggestions” the US gives them. Don’t flatter yourself into thinking that you’re a bunch of “independents” or something.

And besides, the US certainly can prevent our businesses from doing any business with yours, if that’s what it takes. Which is likely to be far more effective.

So again, yes, Cuba is pretty much cut off from the world. Look before you leap next time.[/quote]

Please.

We can and have traded with Cuba whenever we damn well pleased and since we are a bigger economy than the US, they cannot risk a trade war and when they risk it anyway,they usually back down after some huffing and puffing.

106

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

Oh really? yawn

“ST. PAUL, Minn. â?? On the weekend before the Republican National Convention, law enforcement agencies detained dozens of people and issued a series of search warrants aimed at groups believed to be organizing demonstrations while delegates and Republican officials are in town.”

“A US Senate committee has approved a wide-ranging cybersecurity bill that some critics have suggested would give the US president the authority to shut down parts of the Internet during a cyberattack.”

http://news.techworld.com/security/3228198/obama-internet-kill-switch-plan-approved-by-us-senate-panel/

WikiLeaks website shut down by Amazon & Joe Lieberman

http://blogs.computerworld.com/17457/wikileaks_website_shut_down_by_amazon_joe_lieberman[/quote]

I like how you omitted the part where patients have no say whatsoever when it comes to how doctors meet their production quota or how they abort children to have the most awesomestest statistics EVA!

107

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:No, they have been shut off from the US.

Lots of nations have no real trade with the US and are doing better than Cuba.

They even reveived resources from the SU.

[/quote]

Apparently you do not know that the US has the power to sue any country in the world that does business with Cuba.

So yes, they have pretty much been cut off from the world. Try again.
[/quote]

Holy Stupidity Batman!

108

[quote]MaximusB wrote:From the lower portion of the Wikipedia link I posted…

A recent ABC-TV 20/20 report on Healthcare, based on footage taken from within the island, criticized Michael Moore’s portrayals of the Cuban Healthcare system in the movie Sicko. In that film, Moore took a number of Americans to a hospital in Havana where they bought affordable drugs, and were given treatments for free that they could not afford in America. The report highlights the dilapidated conditions of some hospitals that are accessible to regular Cubans by pointing to the bleak conditions of hospital rooms and the filthy conditions of the facilities. The report also addressed the quality of care available to Cubans by arguing that patient neglect was a common phenomenon. Finally, in discussing the infant mortality rate, the report highlights the government’s alleged efforts to promote abortions of potentially infirm fetuses and other alleged government efforts to manipulate the rate.[/quote]

One report? Who cares? The US has been lying about Cuba for 50 years now. This does not change the balance of the evidence.

109

It’s because I don’t know that those are true. One person’s word means nothing, and as we’ve noted with your post of the falsified cable, people lie about Cuba all the time.

I think it’s hilarious how the refutation of “official” information on Cuba in your thread goes unnoticed by you.

110

[quote]orion wrote:Please.

We can and have traded with Cuba whenever we damn well pleased and since we are a bigger economy than the US, they cannot risk a trade war and when they risk it anyway,they usually back down after some huffing and puffing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba_–_European_Union_relations[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. The embargo is really no big deal, regardless of what these guys say:

“More than 1,000 women in Cuba die of breast cancer each year and many of these deaths can be ascribed to the United States economic embargo. Before the early 1990’s every Cuban woman over 35 received regular mammograms and comprehensive early detection programs were in place throughout the country. Today, as a result of the [embargo], spare parts for the best mammography equipment, produced only by U.S. companies or subsidiaries, are not available and equipment is in disrepair.”

“As a result of the Cuban Democracy Act, the oil supply for the island has been cut in half from 1989 levels, and only 12 to 15 of the worlds tankers now travel to Cuba. The lack of fuel directly effects the ability to utilize mobile mammogram units.”

“The U.S. embargo also directly interferes with Cuba’s ability to produce some of these drugs domestically. Companies cannot sell Cuba the active ingredients needed for trial runs of anti-cancer drugs.”

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,COI,IRBC,,CUB,,3df4be284,0.html

Or these guys:

“With the demise of subsidized trade, the absence of aid from the former Soviet Union, and the progressive tightening of U.S. sanctions, Cuba’s model health care system has become threatened by serious shortages of medical supplies. Several public health catastrophes have occurred, including an epidemic of blindness that was partially attributed to a dramatic decrease in access to nutrients; an outbreak of the Guillain-Barré syndrome caused by lack of chlorination chemicals; and an epidemic of lye ingestion in toddlers due to severe shortages of soap.”

Effect of the U.S. embargo and economic decline on health in Cuba, Michèle Barry, MD

Or these guys:

“For the past 14 years, the UN Secretary-General has documented the negative impact of the
US embargo on Cuba. In her last report to the Human Rights Council, the Personal
Representative of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights on the situation
of human rights in Cuba described the effects of the embargo on the economic, social and
cultural rights of the Cuban people as ‘disastrous’.”

“[…]the fact that the United States is the major regional economic power and the
main source of new medicines and technologies means that Cuba is subject to deprivations
that impinge on its citizensâ?? human rights.”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR25/007/2009/en/51469f8b-73f8-47a2-a5bd-f839adf50488/amr250072009eng.pdf

A blockade by the world’s largest economy is no excuse for less-than-stellar economic performance.

111

No, you don’t, because there have not been any really socialist countries since parts of Spain in 1936.

Good news! That’s not socialism, which has nothing to do with government control of the economy. In fact, a corrupt government is one of the very best arguments you could possibly make for socialism, which is the control of the government by the people, not the caricature that we have here.

You will not get a responsible government under capitalism. It hasn’t happened in 200 years, and from all indications, it’s not about to happen soon. When you allow business to control the government, as orion wishes, society is run like a business–for profit, and to hell with the welfare of society.

112

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Good news! That’s not socialism, which has nothing to do with government control of the economy. In fact, a corrupt government is one of the very best arguments you could possibly make for socialism, which is the control of the government by the people, not the caricature that we have here.[/quote]

How do you envision the government being run by the people more than a pure democracy (admitting we have a pseudo-republican set up in the US)? Similarly, without a governing body to enforce all of the social welfare rules how would many of these socialized practices be put into effect? Force seems the only option here and it isn’t immediately obvious how you could achieve a more pure governmental body than under “capitalism” (to be fair what you are describing is more akin to fascism).

113

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

It’s because I don’t know that those are true. One person’s word means nothing, and as we’ve noted with your post of the falsified cable, people lie about Cuba all the time.

I think it’s hilarious how the refutation of “official” information on Cuba in your thread goes unnoticed by you.
[/quote]

You mean the refutation of one point of approximately twenty?

114

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

A blockade by the world’s largest economy is no excuse for less-than-stellar economic performance.
[/quote]

See, we agree!

They could have bought that equipment anywhere if it werent for the fact that after 50 years of communism they are shit poor dirt kickers.

One would expect that the pure awesome of collectivized medicine would have surpassed anything capitalism has to offer anyway.

115

[quote]kilpaba wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Good news! That’s not socialism, which has nothing to do with government control of the economy. In fact, a corrupt government is one of the very best arguments you could possibly make for socialism, which is the control of the government by the people, not the caricature that we have here.[/quote]

How do you envision the government being run by the people more than a pure democracy (admitting we have a pseudo-republican set up in the US)? Similarly, without a governing body to enforce all of the social welfare rules how would many of these socialized practices be put into effect? Force seems the only option here and it isn’t immediately obvious how you could achieve a more pure governmental body than under “capitalism” (to be fair what you are describing is more akin to fascism).

[/quote]

Exactly, just because 536 people cannot agree on anything, doesn’t mean that millions of people can’t.

Ryan, how do you propose millions or billions of people get anything done? This oughta be rich.

116

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:all this shit falls on deaf ears for someone who STILL HAS FAMILY IN CUBA

you really are a bunch of ignorant motherfuckers aren’t you all?

you can pull facts from wikipedia all you want, but it dont mean shit to somebody who knows better.

I was LOLing at the cuban part of Sicko (though actually I enjoyed the movie, and much of what I saw in the movie was to me, somebody in the health care field, actually very true)

but the Cuban part? give me a break.

the scene where they bought a bunch of respiratory inhalers for just a few dollars, well, idiots, when the average monthly salary of a Cuban is only a few dollars a month, those drugs are just as out of reach to the average Cuban as they are to the average American who is out of work and has no insurance.

I should get my uncle to post over here about the “secret phone numbers” the communist elite use in Cuba to get goods and services that the average Cuban cannot even thing about having. [/quote]

I’m sorry, I just now saw this.

Here’s the deal: believe whatever you want. You obviously will no matter what happens in the real world. But don’t come on here making 6th grade logical mistakes and expect me to apologize because you’re a moron.

I don’t give a shit what any one says, anecdotes mean nothing, and if you understand anything at all about statistics, you know why anecdotes are less than worthless.

So we’ve got a Cuban on here, to tell us the truth about the awful Cuban health system. How convenient. Let’s ignore the face that many other Cubans will tell you far different stories about the care they have received, and let’s ignore the fact that statistics support these other people and not our friend here. We want the Cuban health system to be awful, that’s what we want to hear, and so we’ll ignore all the other facts and take this one gentleman’s word for it, and anyone who actually attempts to use their brain in this case is ridiculed. That’s all fine, conservatives do it every day. I could readily find people who will tell you stories about friends and family members who have died in the US because their insurer refused to pay for their medical expenses, and I could find people who have gone to Canada to get treatment they could not in the US. Again, it happens every day, and yet you don’t seem to care about these people, even though there are far more of these complaints than there are about Cuba. I wonder why that is?

But UNTIL you get your shit together, and at least pretend to argue honestly, don’t try to take me task. Or if you do, please explain how this massive conspiracy, participated in by the UN and the CIA (who don’t dispute the impressive statistics regarding Cuba), was put into place, because that is what you are suggesting is happening.

[/quote]

You make me laugh. Spoken like someone with very little life experience. I am putting kids through college, save lives EVERY day for a living, have a mortgage, earn a very respectable salary, accomplished all of this with two illiterate parents one of whom could barely speak the native language most of her life(English), and grew up in poverty, worked my way through school.

In other words, I have my shit together…what have you done in this world besides type worthless shit on message boards quoting/referencing/linking other peoples knowledge/opinions?

You can tell me all day in a million ways why Cuba has a great health care system, but I know hundreds of people who lived in Cuba and they say different.

Question: If you were going on a hike in a remote area…would you trust what you read in a book on which trails to take or would you listen to somebody who grew up in that area and hiked those woods all of his life?

You would soil yourself if you had made the trip from Cuba to Florida in the boat my uncle came over in. People are risking their lives to get from Cuba to this country every day (despite the shitty health care we have here), NOT the other way around.

Here is a fact, you can pull up facts from as many sources as you want to support pretty much any claim you make…conservatives can pull up shit to back their opinions and liberals vice versa…do not try to act like you KNOW anything…all you know about Cuba is what you have read.

BTW, I have worked in this health care system nearly 20 years, I know more about it than you do too…or have you read so many blogs you are going to lecture a veteran health care professional on how health care really is…

I am sure you could teach me a thing or two…

what a fucking joke.

117

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:all this shit falls on deaf ears for someone who STILL HAS FAMILY IN CUBA

you really are a bunch of ignorant motherfuckers aren’t you all?

you can pull facts from wikipedia all you want, but it dont mean shit to somebody who knows better.

I was LOLing at the cuban part of Sicko (though actually I enjoyed the movie, and much of what I saw in the movie was to me, somebody in the health care field, actually very true)

but the Cuban part? give me a break.

the scene where they bought a bunch of respiratory inhalers for just a few dollars, well, idiots, when the average monthly salary of a Cuban is only a few dollars a month, those drugs are just as out of reach to the average Cuban as they are to the average American who is out of work and has no insurance.

I should get my uncle to post over here about the “secret phone numbers” the communist elite use in Cuba to get goods and services that the average Cuban cannot even thing about having. [/quote]

I’m sorry, I just now saw this.

Here’s the deal: believe whatever you want. You obviously will no matter what happens in the real world. But don’t come on here making 6th grade logical mistakes and expect me to apologize because you’re a moron.

I don’t give a shit what any one says, anecdotes mean nothing, and if you understand anything at all about statistics, you know why anecdotes are less than worthless.

So we’ve got a Cuban on here, to tell us the truth about the awful Cuban health system. How convenient. Let’s ignore the face that many other Cubans will tell you far different stories about the care they have received, and let’s ignore the fact that statistics support these other people and not our friend here. We want the Cuban health system to be awful, that’s what we want to hear, and so we’ll ignore all the other facts and take this one gentleman’s word for it, and anyone who actually attempts to use their brain in this case is ridiculed. That’s all fine, conservatives do it every day. I could readily find people who will tell you stories about friends and family members who have died in the US because their insurer refused to pay for their medical expenses, and I could find people who have gone to Canada to get treatment they could not in the US. Again, it happens every day, and yet you don’t seem to care about these people, even though there are far more of these complaints than there are about Cuba. I wonder why that is?

But UNTIL you get your shit together, and at least pretend to argue honestly, don’t try to take me task. Or if you do, please explain how this massive conspiracy, participated in by the UN and the CIA (who don’t dispute the impressive statistics regarding Cuba), was put into place, because that is what you are suggesting is happening.

[/quote]

You make me laugh. Spoken like someone with very little life experience. I am putting kids through college, save lives EVERY day for a living, have a mortgage, earn a very respectable salary, accomplished all of this with two illiterate parents one of whom could barely speak the native language most of her life(English), and grew up in poverty, worked my way through school.

In other words, I have my shit together…what have you done in this world besides type worthless shit on message boards quoting/referencing/linking other peoples knowledge/opinions?

You can tell me all day in a million ways why Cuba has a great health care system, but I know hundreds of people who lived in Cuba and they say different.

Question: If you were going on a hike in a remote area…would you trust what you read in a book on which trails to take or would you listen to somebody who grew up in that area and hiked those woods all of his life?

You would soil yourself if you had made the trip from Cuba to Florida in the boat my uncle came over in. People are risking their lives to get from Cuba to this country every day (despite the shitty health care we have here), NOT the other way around.

Here is a fact, you can pull up facts from as many sources as you want to support pretty much any claim you make…conservatives can pull up shit to back their opinions and liberals vice versa…do not try to act like you KNOW anything…all you know about Cuba is what you have read.

BTW, I have worked in this health care system nearly 20 years, I know more about it than you do too…or have you read so many blogs you are going to lecture a veteran health care professional on how health care really is…

I am sure you could teach me a thing or two…

what a fucking joke. [/quote]

One of the single greatest smack downs I have ever seen.

118

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Question: If you were going on a hike in a remote area…would you trust what you read in a book on which trails to take or would you listen to somebody who grew up in that area and hiked those woods all of his life? [/quote]

Just to point out, you’re immediately assuming that the book and the hiker would point out different trails. If the book were well put together by someone of experience, as it should be done, then I don’t think there would be many differences.

119

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Question: If you were going on a hike in a remote area…would you trust what you read in a book on which trails to take or would you listen to somebody who grew up in that area and hiked those woods all of his life? [/quote]

Just to point out, you’re immediately assuming that the book and the hiker would point out different trails. If the book were well put together by someone of experience, as it should be done, then I don’t think there would be many differences.
[/quote]

That is a pretty big if. The world usually doesn’t work that way.

120

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Question: If you were going on a hike in a remote area…would you trust what you read in a book on which trails to take or would you listen to somebody who grew up in that area and hiked those woods all of his life? [/quote]

Just to point out, you’re immediately assuming that the book and the hiker would point out different trails. If the book were well put together by someone of experience, as it should be done, then I don’t think there would be many differences.
[/quote]

That is a pretty big if. The world usually doesn’t work that way.[/quote]

So you mean to say, experts don’t write about what they know? Pardon me if I find that ridiculous. Sorry if sarcasm went undetected.