King George II

W/r/t “right and wrong” and the underlying program, here’s some informatio to chew on, relating to what European countries do to their citizens w/r/t wiretapping. Again, this doesn’t and shouldn’t affect the U.S. legal analysis (which I wish people would remember applies to other topics for which they like European laws as well…), but it provides a relativistic measure for “right” and “wrong” w/r/t wiretapping:

Wiretapping, European-Style.
Think Bush’s warrantless NSA surveillance is bad? Wait till you hear what the British government does.
By Eric Weiner
Updated Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2006, at 6:39 AM ET

For Europeans, scolding the Bush administration for everything from Guantanamo to the Iraq War to secret CIA prisons has become a full-time job. But when it comes to the American scandal over President Bush’s warrantless wiretaps, there’s been a curious reaction from the other side of the Atlantic: silence. Where is the European outrage?

European restraint may arise from a fear of hypocrisy. The fact is that in much of Europe wiretapping is de rigueur?practiced more regularly and with less oversight than in the United States. Most Europeans either don’t know about this or, more likely, simply don’t care.

The extensive European taps are not new developments, made in the heat of passion after the London and Madrid bombings. European governments have been bugging phones for decades. In theory, the European Convention on Human Rights forbids “arbitrary wiretapping,” but, as we’ve learned in the United States, arbitrary is in the ear of the wiretapper.

he three worst offenders are not countries you would suspect of playing fast and loose with civil liberties: Britain, Italy, and the Netherlands. Italian officials conduct tens of thousands of wiretaps each year. Technically, judicial approval is needed but since judges in Italy are “investigative,” meaning they act more like our prosecutors, there is essentially no check on law enforcement’s ability to eavesdrop.

In Britain, police have an even easier time tapping phones. The home secretary, a Cabinet minister, approves all wiretaps. Judges have nothing to do with it.

Or, to put it in American terms, imagine Homeland Secretary Michael Chertoff authorizing wiretaps of anyone he deems fit?only without the pesky questions from the media and Congress.

Gus Hosein, an analyst with Privacy International, calculates that, given the number of wiretaps in the U.K., the home secretary approves a new wiretap every few seconds. “Obviously, it’s impossible to give it the attention it needs,” says Hosein. Britain did recently establish an Interception of Communications Commissioner, but he has limited authority; his main job is tallying the number of annual wiretaps. The only Brits safe from wiretapping are members of Parliament, though after the London bombing, there is now a move afoot to revoke their immunity.

Britain’s lax attitude toward telephone privacy dates back to the 1920s, when the British government owned the phone company. There was no need for court approval of wiretaps, since, in a way, the government would be asking itself for that approval.

The Netherlands has the highest rate of wiretapping of any European country?a surprising fact, given the country’s reputation for cozy coffee bars, not invasive police tactics. Dutch police can tap any phone they like, so long as the crime under investigation carries at least a three-year jail term.

Washington’s biggest European critic?France?also has a serious wiretapping habit, as Marc Perelman points out in Foreign Policy: “In addition to judicially ordered taps there are also ‘administrative wiretaps’ decided by security agencies under the control of the government.” Perelman argues that most French know about these policies but don’t seem to care, despite clear cases of abuse in the past. Most prominent is the Elys?e Scandal?named after the palace where the late President Francois Mitterrand set up an undercover listening room.* Mitterrand’s operatives tapped the calls of his political enemies: lawyers, businessmen, journalists, and even the actress and Chanel model Carole Bouquet. This took place in the mid-1980s but only surfaced recently, and 12 conspirators were brought to trial. What’s interesting?and disturbing?about the Elys?e Scandal is that at the time, French authorities had justified the surveillance as a necessary tool to fight terrorism.

Earlier this month, in one of the more bizarre cases of Euro-tapping, Greek officials acknowledged that 100 cell-phone lines were tapped during the 2004 Athens Olympic Games. Oddly, all those targeted were involved with national security, including Prime Minster Kostas Karamanlis. Vodafone, the mobile phone company, learned of the wiretapping when customers complained they were not receiving their messages and calls. An investigation revealed that someone had installed spy software. It’s not clear who was tapping the phones or why.

European police aren’t listening only to conversations; now they have access to other details of phone use. In December, the European parliament approved new rules requiring telecommunications companies to retain customers’ telephone and Internet records for up to two years. The directive passed in record time, despite objections from phone companies and Internet providers (all that record-keeping is expensive), as well as privacy advocates. This means that European authorities can tell not only what was said in a phone call, but who was on the other end and where they were located. The United States lobbied hard for this new EU policy, even though telecommunications companies in this country are under no such record-keeping obligation.

When it comes to consumer information, Europeans guard their privacy much more fiercely than Americans do. European companies can’t legally share most consumer information, and cases of identity theft are much less common.

So, why are Europeans so nonchalant when it comes to government eavesdropping? One reason is that sometimes it works. When Osman Hussain, a suspect in the botched July 21 London bombing, fled Britain, police traced his journey?across the United Kingdom to France and then Italy, where he was arrested?by tapping his cell phone.

There is a cultural explanation, too. Europeans tend to trust their private information with governments, not corporations. So, while they wouldn’t dream of divulging their credit card number to a telemarketer they will gladly hand it over to a government clerk. The state is seen as more benevolent than those greedy, Americanized corporations.

And Europeans have no equivalent to the American Constitution, which enshrines the right of individuals to be free from government coercion. Privacy International’s Hosein draws on this constitutional tradition when he explains why Europeans don’t bristle at wiretapping that would appall Americans. In Europe, he notes, there are plenty of pressure groups fighting for the rights of consumers, but very few lobbying on behalf of citizens. There is no European equivalent of the ACLU, pushing back against government intrusions. So, next time you’re in Europe, feel free to hand out your credit card number willy-nilly. Just be careful what you say on the phone.

Correction, Feb. 14, 2006: The piece originally misspelled Francois Mitterrand’s last name. (Return to the corrected sentence.)

Eric Weiner is a correspondent for NPR’s Day to Day program.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

G
Having the Supreme Court, nine judges, interpret the Constitution (while still at the mercy of Congree anyway) is a far different thing than one man writing additives into bills that give he, and he alone, exclusive powers, especially about torture.

doogie wrote:
What do you mean when you say the Supreme Court is “still at the mercy of Congree anyway”? I assume you meant Congress, but what did you mean by “at the mercy of”?

FightinIrish26 wrote:
I remember when John Roberts was getting confirmed, he pointed out that Congress makes the laws (and yea that was a typo sorry), and so if they don’t like how the Supreme Court rules, they should simply change the laws. [/quote]

That doesn’t put the Supreme Court at the mercy of Congress.

The man makes every effort to protect us from terrorists and some of you assume he’s out to be King George. Do you realize how laughable that premise is?

Maybe we should all vote socialist (as the original poster wants to). The only question is: National Socialist or Soviet Socialist? Which is it?

Is this thread a joke?

HH

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The man makes every effort to protect us from terrorists and some of you assume he’s out to be King George. Do you realize how laughable that premise is?

Maybe we should all vote socialist (as the original poster wants to). The only question is: National Socialist or Soviet Socialist? Which is it?

Is this thread a joke?

HH[/quote]

Yes Headhunter it is. Its secretely a plan to elect either another Hitler or Stalin to the helm.

Stop being a retard. You’re better than that.

Boston,

Aren’t the Brits the same ones that have cameras all over London, at every street corner? I thought I saw something about that a while ago.

I’m sure its not just an American problem. Like I said though, I don’t believe a government should have that right to spy on its citizens.

When you combine things like this, along with what the original post was about (Bush circumventing the bill), it strikes me as dangerous. Far more dangerous than the Supreme Court.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The man makes every effort to protect us from terrorists and some of you assume he’s out to be King George. Do you realize how laughable that premise is?

Maybe we should all vote socialist (as the original poster wants to). The only question is: National Socialist or Soviet Socialist? Which is it?

Is this thread a joke?

HH

Yes Headhunter it is. Its secretely a plan to elect either another Hitler or Stalin to the helm.

Stop being a retard. You’re better than that.[/quote]

Yeah, I felt bad after posting that. I know that’s not you at all and I admit my ‘badness’.

Now a question: since a president knows he’s under a microscope, why would he knowingly break a law? He’d know that the opposition would jump on him like chickens on corn. It just can’t happen. This is not the old days, where(for ex) Kennedy can have 3 hookers in a Reno hotel room and everyone looks the other way. I just don’t see it happening.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Now a question: since a president knows he’s under a microscope, why would he knowingly break a law? He’d know that the opposition would jump on him like chickens on corn. It just can’t happen.
[/quote]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Look, for anyone to seriously make the claim that Bush is trying to amass executive power to give himself “kinglike” authority would require also establishing that:

a)Bush is going to try to have presidential term limits removed, or
b)There is some conspiracy in which this increased power is planned to be harnessed by some other person, who is guaranteed to win in the next election or elections, and is reliably amenable to the conspiracy’s goals.

I don’t think either is likely. Rather, I think that Bush et al. genuinely think that what they’re doing is right and good, and is for the benefit of the nation. That doesn’t mean that we have to agree.

As far as breaking a law goes, Bush has legal scholars telling him that his program is within the bounds of the law. It might be. The problem is that administrators (and bureaucrats, especially) tend to totalitarianism. Why? For some, yes, it is some sadistic need for mastery over others. But for many, it is driven by the earnest belief that one could do a better job - protect more people, create a better world - by easing restrictions that are seen as being overly demanding and obstructive of the pursuit of justice.

Of course, the accomplishment of these ends could open up a pandora’s box of new abuses and intrusions, but in the mind of an executive, these are probably secondary to perceived threats of violence.

irish,

You seem to be in need of another kick in the charms.

Just out of curiosity, why did you title this “George II?” You’d think that the irish (of all people) would be VERY familar with the English Monarchy.

For instance, George II lived in the mid-1700’s. His son, George III, was the monarch that the United States declared Independence from.

In fact, if you made a stab at logic, you’d have to call W. AT LEAST George VII. I believe George VI ruled until 1952.

However, using liberal logic, W. would probably be George VIII (I remember this tired phrase being used against my patron, George H.W. Bush).

Bad irish. Off to the corner.

JeffR

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

As I said, a court of nine evenly divided is something I trust more than some president, be it a democrat or republican. [/quote]

Not to quibble, as I don’t think it’s quibbling, I think this is a huge disagreement in American political thinking - no little “d” democrat can - well, should - say with a straight face they trust political power in an unelected, permanently tenured panel of decisionmakers over a position that is elected by a national vote with an audit every four years.

As a matter of basic democratic construction, that suggestion cannot be a good idea, which is why I continue to be baffled as to liberals claiming on one hand that what is needed these days is “more democracy!” and yet subscribing to this view that an oligarchy should have ever more power to decide our political and social fate. It doesn’t make sense.

Here is Robert Byrd on the Senate floor regarding the Alito confirmation:

“I regret that we have come to a place in our history when both political parties, both political parties exhibit such a take-no prisoners attitude. All sides seek to use the debate over a Supreme Court nominee to air their particular wish list for or against abortion, euthanasia, executive authority, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, corporate greed, and dozens of other subjects.
All of these issues should be debated but the battle line should not be drawn on the Judiciary. It should be debated by the peoples’ representatives right here in the legislative branch. However, too many Americans apparently believe that if they cannot get Congress to address an issue then they must take it to the Court. As the saying goes: “if you can’t change the law, change the judge.”
This kind of thinking represents a gross misinterpretation of the separation of powers. It is the role of the Congress, the role of the legislative branch to make and change the laws. Supreme Court justices exist to interpret laws and be sure that they square with the Constitution and with law.”

Byrd may be fat on governmemt pork, but I think he is right on the money here.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

As I said, a court of nine evenly divided is something I trust more than some president, be it a democrat or republican.

Not to quibble, as I don’t think it’s quibbling, I think this is a huge disagreement in American political thinking - no little “d” democrat can - well, should - say with a straight face they trust political power in an unelected, permanently tenured panel of decisionmakers over a position that is elected by a national vote with an audit every four years.

As a matter of basic democratic construction, that suggestion cannot be a good idea, which is why I continue to be baffled as to liberals claiming on one hand that what is needed these days is “more democracy!” and yet subscribing to this view that an oligarchy should have ever more power to decide our political and social fate. It doesn’t make sense.

Here is Robert Byrd on the Senate floor regarding the Alito confirmation:

“I regret that we have come to a place in our history when both political parties, both political parties exhibit such a take-no prisoners attitude. All sides seek to use the debate over a Supreme Court nominee to air their particular wish list for or against abortion, euthanasia, executive authority, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, corporate greed, and dozens of other subjects.
All of these issues should be debated but the battle line should not be drawn on the Judiciary. It should be debated by the peoples’ representatives right here in the legislative branch. However, too many Americans apparently believe that if they cannot get Congress to address an issue then they must take it to the Court. As the saying goes: “if you can’t change the law, change the judge.”
This kind of thinking represents a gross misinterpretation of the separation of powers. It is the role of the Congress, the role of the legislative branch to make and change the laws. Supreme Court justices exist to interpret laws and be sure that they square with the Constitution and with law.”

Byrd may be fat on governmemt pork, but I think he is right on the money here.

[/quote]

Well I agree here also. Lifelong appointment is ridiculous in my opinion- maybe not only ridiculous, but dangerous.

But then how the hell do you keep the Supreme Court from becoming a regular squabble over politics?

10 year reviews? So the appointing president is out of office?

I don’t know

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The man makes every effort to protect us from terrorists and some of you assume he’s out to be King George. Do you realize how laughable that premise is?

Maybe we should all vote socialist (as the original poster wants to). The only question is: National Socialist or Soviet Socialist? Which is it?

Is this thread a joke?

HH

Yes Headhunter it is. Its secretely a plan to elect either another Hitler or Stalin to the helm.

Stop being a retard. You’re better than that.

Yeah, I felt bad after posting that. I know that’s not you at all and I admit my ‘badness’.

Now a question: since a president knows he’s under a microscope, why would he knowingly break a law? He’d know that the opposition would jump on him like chickens on corn. It just can’t happen. This is not the old days, where(for ex) Kennedy can have 3 hookers in a Reno hotel room and everyone looks the other way. I just don’t see it happening.

[/quote]

Everyone is sorry after they get caught. It might be simple arrogance…“I can’t get caught. I’m the President. Even if I do, I can somehow justify it to the people”.

Power corrupts. Maybe thats all there is to it.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Now a question: since a president knows he’s under a microscope, why would he knowingly break a law? He’d know that the opposition would jump on him like chickens on corn. It just can’t happen.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Look, for anyone to seriously make the claim that Bush is trying to amass executive power to give himself “kinglike” authority would require also establishing that:

a)Bush is going to try to have presidential term limits removed, or
b)There is some conspiracy in which this increased power is planned to be harnessed by some other person, who is guaranteed to win in the next election or elections, and is reliably amenable to the conspiracy’s goals.

I don’t think either is likely. Rather, I think that Bush et al. genuinely think that what they’re doing is right and good, and is for the benefit of the nation. That doesn’t mean that we have to agree.

As far as breaking a law goes, Bush has legal scholars telling him that his program is within the bounds of the law. It might be. The problem is that administrators (and bureaucrats, especially) tend to totalitarianism. Why? For some, yes, it is some sadistic need for mastery over others. But for many, it is driven by the earnest belief that one could do a better job - protect more people, create a better world - by easing restrictions that are seen as being overly demanding and obstructive of the pursuit of justice.

Of course, the accomplishment of these ends could open up a pandora’s box of new abuses and intrusions, but in the mind of an executive, these are probably secondary to perceived threats of violence.[/quote]

That was very good and explained a lot. Good post!