should have read the rest of the thread first
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I agree. Having a home mortgage or children does not automatically confer upon anyone any special knowledge about political issues or world affairs; it just means that you know from experience what it’s like to have kids or make house payments.
[/quote]
Exactly. I’ve always wondered just what it was about having a home mortgage or having children which automatically conferred special knowledge about political issues or world affairs. I would be interested in seeing Rockscar or ZEB or someone who uses this argument actually explain just why having a mortgage or having children did this. [/quote]
It’s the accumulation of meaningful experiences that cause you to view the world around you differently, more realistically. What would you tell a 10 year old who constantly questioned you because he thought he knew exactly how the world works? He might say some of the same things to you that you say to us: “Why do you think you’re so smart just because you’re in college? And just because you’ve had sex with your girlfriend? And just because you live on your own (or in a dorm)? So what? I’m 10 and my world is rockin I know everything!”
Well, that’s pretty close to how you sound to us. And how many years separate you from that 10 year old? Maybe only 10-12?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
Sometimes it’s useful to listen to the idealism of the young. Ignorance does often lead to brilliance.
In fact, I think a more contemptible attitude than the arrogance of youth is the arrogance of experience… we should know better. [/quote]
I agree. Having a home mortgage or children does not automatically confer upon anyone any special knowledge about political issues or world affairs; it just means that you know from experience what it’s like to have kids or make house payments.
It’s kind of like what they say about doctors. I have a couple friends who are going through med school and a couple of friends’s parents who are doctors. They all say that, for the most part it’s the young doctors right out of med school that know more than the doctor who has 20 years of experience. Why? Because the younger ones are much more in tune with the “latest and greatest” techniques, findings, research, etc because they HAVE to study it and the info is fresh in their mind. The older ones are only as well-informed as their own efforts outside of the hospital have made them.
It’s hubris to think that age and experience trumps youth. I can guarantee you that any poly sci, economics or history students on this site know more about how the world works outside of their own lives than virtually anyone else on this forum. Why? because they are studying those subjects right now and if they are majoring in these areas then they clearly have some sort of passion for the subjects and probably spend more time thinking and reading about them than a parent of three who’s more concerned about putting food on the table and making house payments. Such is the luxury of youth.
The flip side of that coin is that the youth tend to argue or view things in terms of theory rather than reality.[/quote]
Who says we don’t agree,I even think you stated that well
[quote]Fezzik wrote:
I’m pretty sure most old people I know are full of crap too. I don’t know what’s more annoying… someone thinking their opinion matters because they are old, or someone thinking their opinion matters because they got it from Jon Stewart.[/quote]
Old people are just like young people some are full of crap , believe it or not some young people think their opinions are more valid because they’re are more in touch with the current trends 
I can’t speak for the whole college, but I came out of my undergrad with much more conservative ideas than when I went in. Most of friends were moderate to conservative. I had some really liberal friends too. Some of my professors were flaming liberals and others were staunch conservatives.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Fezzik wrote:
I’m pretty sure most old people I know are full of crap too. I don’t know what’s more annoying… someone thinking their opinion matters because they are old, or someone thinking their opinion matters because they got it from Jon Stewart.[/quote]
Old people are just like young people some are full of crap , believe it or not some young people think their opinions are more valid because they’re are more in touch with the current trends :)[/quote]
Yes some older people are full of crap I agree. But just because you and your generation are in touch with “current” trends doesnt mean anything. Thats a really stupid statement to say.
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
I would be interested in seeing Rockscar or ZEB or someone who uses this argument actually explain just why having a mortgage or having children did this. [/quote]
I was a raving eco-communist in College, and I didn’t know exactly why.
I think the first awakaning was when I was told my rent was going up, so that the section 8 (Welfare housing assistance program) apartments could be renovated with that financing. This was my first mental realization and taste of life where I had to finance someone else’s stuff for no reason other than the fact that they don’t make much money.
Then over time, as you see yourself paying a lot of taxes, pay your bills ontime, etc while financing the same people, whom I have know over the years, who suck the system…my money.
After having children you become more conservative based on what you see in their schools, the parents that bring them up, the constant assault of TV, print and ad media selling SEX SEX SEX …
Cialis, Viagra, commercials at 3PM talking about your dick being hard all the while your daughter of 7 years sees and hears this… That’s just one example…The shows for Disney now are turning more liberal…with a lot more grey areas.
I don’t think I need to justify why having kids, and a mortgage makes you a more responsible and sensibly realistic person. The outside threats are tenfold.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I can’t speak for the whole college, but I came out of my undergrad with much more conservative ideas than when I went in. Most of friends were moderate to conservative. I had some really liberal friends too. Some of my professors were flaming liberals and others were staunch conservatives. [/quote]
That’s great. I’m glad to hear it!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I agree. Having a home mortgage or children does not automatically confer upon anyone any special knowledge about political issues or world affairs; it just means that you know from experience what it’s like to have kids or make house payments.
[/quote]
Exactly. I’ve always wondered just what it was about having a home mortgage or having children which automatically conferred special knowledge about political issues or world affairs. I would be interested in seeing Rockscar or ZEB or someone who uses this argument actually explain just why having a mortgage or having children did this. [/quote]
It’s the accumulation of meaningful experiences that cause you to view the world around you differently, more realistically. What would you tell a 10 year old who constantly questioned you because he thought he knew exactly how the world works? He might say some of the same things to you that you say to us: “Why do you think you’re so smart just because you’re in college? And just because you’ve had sex with your girlfriend? And just because you live on your own (or in a dorm)? So what? I’m 10 and my world is rockin I know everything!”
Well, that’s pretty close to how you sound to us. And how many years separate you from that 10 year old? Maybe only 10-12?
[/quote]
All of that was question begging.
For example, the accumulation of experiences does change the way you look at the world, but why does that lead you to a deeper understanding of politics and world issues? You cannot argue for this claim simply by restating it.
As for your analogy with a 10 year old, a 10 year old is not only naive, i.e. lacking in experience, but also mostly incapable of objective reasoning and lacking in facts. The ability of someone to reason objectively, analyze a situation, and make rational judgments based on that reasoning is not dependent on age once one has developed those skills.
Remember, what’s at issue here isn’t naivety, but ability to understand, grasp and reason about complex situations, e.g. current events, political policy, etc.
Obviously experience gives one something, but nothing anyone has said here suggests that what comes from experience is an acuity for complex social issues. What does experience give one? You’re right, perspective. As some of you have said, once you are making money and supporting yourself and have heavy financial and social burdens (e.g. a mortgage and family) you start to look at things differently. You start to guard your own well being more. But that change in perspective certainly does not mean an increase in political acuity.
Besides, there are more counter examples to these claims than I can count: surely there are countless young adults who hold the same sorts of political and economic views that you do, ZEB. Surely there are countless old geezers who are staunch liberals. If experience makes one wiser and the young are generally naive, and further if being wise'' means embracing a conservative point of view and being naive’’ means being liberal, why are there large numbers of both conservatives and liberals across all age demographics?
In the end this sort of ``oh, if only those young liberals would get a real job, then they’d think just like me’’ bemoaning is just a mix of posturing and ad hominem argumentation. Are there naive and stupid young adults who think they know everything? Of course. But there are just as many naive and stupid old geezers too—the deciding factor is not whether one holds a mortgage or has a family.
[quote]farmerson12 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Fezzik wrote:
I’m pretty sure most old people I know are full of crap too. I don’t know what’s more annoying… someone thinking their opinion matters because they are old, or someone thinking their opinion matters because they got it from Jon Stewart.[/quote]
Old people are just like young people some are full of crap , believe it or not some young people think their opinions are more valid because they’re are more in touch with the current trends :)[/quote]
Yes some older people are full of crap I agree. But yjust because you and your generation are in touch with “current” trends doesnt mean anything. Thats a really stupid statement to say. s[/quote]
Yeah me and my and my generation are probably older than you and yours:)
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
For example, the accumulation of experiences does change the way you look at the world, but why does that lead you to a deeper understanding of politics and world issues? You cannot argue for this claim simply by restating it.[/quote]
I’ve seen and remember 8 Presidential elections (even worked on a few state wide campaigns) - On top of that I’ve had the time to become a student of Presidential politics. If I have 25 years on you that means (hopefully) that I’ve not only had more political experiences, but also read more about political (and world) history as well. No not everyone by virtue of age has this advantage, but many do. Whereas very, very few in their early 20’s have had the opportunity to acquire that sort of depth. I know I didn’t at that age.
I’m sorry let me put it another way so you fully understand my point. What I was saying is that most (not all) of the 18-24 year old guys on this forum look to me no better than a 10 year old may look to them. And I’m certainly not talking about you so tuck that hubris back into your pants
And in order to do that one needs a breadth of experience that far transcends a few years of college, or however many the young poster may or may not have. That’s why a citizen of the US is not even allowed to run for President until they’ve reached their 35th birthday. Everyone knows (except a few people on the PWI thread)that along with age comes experience, wisdom, knowledge, and far more education either classically, or through reading etc. And that’s why we have age restrictions such as, becoming President–21 to drink, 18 to vote and serve your country, and in most states 16 to drive a car. I am not trying to be insulting in the least. I am just pointing out fact. When the President of the US (whomever it may be) wants to make an important appointment he doesn’t look for a 20 something to fill the position. He looks for a seasoned individual who has “been there” and knows what they are doing.
You’ve taken a couple of things and then tried to transfer them to our topic and that doesn’t make sense. As I explained above it is an entire host of things that change as we get older. Also, one more important point. If I have done what a 20 something has done plus have experience in the field why does that make me inferior to him/her? And isn’t that the undertone that we are speaking of here? I’ve had my degree for many, many years and also a ton of experience in the field. And I’ve also read more books than any 20 year old could possibly read as I’ve had much more time. But none of that counts? A 20 something says that I don’t know what I’m talking about because he’s “political Science” major. Where’s the logic?
True but do they know why they hold them? Do they fully understand what’s going on and the ramifications? I am not saying they don’t some do. But I’ve had a few good laughs at some young conservatives as well for those very reasons. It’s not that a 20 year olds political views are different than mine that makes me to be suspicious of his base of knowledge and experience. It’s how they’ve derived those views that are under fire. AND they’ve usually derived those views because of some radical professor that they know and just love to pieces. (eye roll)
Very true - But usually for different reasons than a college freshman. I’m sure you know who makes up the typical liberal constituency.
You can’t negate the bottom line however you phrase it: University professors are far more liberal than the average population and thus they taint the young minds of their students. And those students usually come to them as wide eyed gape mouthed freshman. And while it isn’t always the case as one grows older they become more conservative than they were at say 20 years of age. Why they become this way is up for analysis. I think it has to do at least in part with earning a little money.
It’s funny how all of the social programs which cost a great deal of money don’t seem quite as important when you see the money actually leave your pay check - The pay check that you worked really hard for. The pay check that you’re saving for a nice vacation, or a new roof on your house. Suddenly all of those pie in the sky ideas that some liberal professor crammed down their throat when they didn’t know any better are lost—lost in the reality of the situation. And that reality is if you grossed say $900 that week you just don’t understand why your take home pay is only $$450. More experience…and that particular experience repeated weekly is a painful reminder that government really is too big and should be smaller - Hey now they’re down with that concept. When they were earning 50 bucks a week selling burgers it just wasn’t that important. Beer money is a good thing but mortage money and money for the kids braces are a strong reminder that politics touche’s us all in a very personal way—eventually. At least there’s a chance that will happen when you’re 40, not as much of a chance at 20.
I don’t think that the typical IQ climbs much after college. And in terms of raw intelligence I think that you and a few of the other 20 somethings are a bright group. It’s how one processes the information that they have with the experience’s that they’ve gained which determines the end result. Once again its’ about perception, which always changes with experience. Yours will too, I don’t know any intelligent people that I went to college with that hold the exact same views that they did when they were 21. If they do they are not very smart folks. We grow, we gain more knowledge we have richer experiences and we change - at least smart people do.
ZEB,
I appreciate your response. I don’t really see too much in your post that disagrees with what I’ve had in mind. My point was that the issue is never as simple as ``experience leads to wisdom,‘’ and your nuanced discussion lends support. The points where we disagree seem to be subtle.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]farmerson12 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Fezzik wrote:
I’m pretty sure most old people I know are full of crap too. I don’t know what’s more annoying… someone thinking their opinion matters because they are old, or someone thinking their opinion matters because they got it from Jon Stewart.[/quote]
Old people are just like young people some are full of crap , believe it or not some young people think their opinions are more valid because they’re are more in touch with the current trends :)[/quote]
Yes some older people are full of crap I agree. But yjust because you and your generation are in touch with “current” trends doesnt mean anything. Thats a really stupid statement to say. s[/quote]
Edit: But hell Ive helped a 13yr old concieve so its possible someone could be in my position at 19…damn thats sad. F
Yeah me and my and my generation are probably older than you and yours:)[/quote]
Ya and you know what? My grandfather is 89. Did he beat you? Hes about to post what you just posted…I keed I keed. But I have a wife, 2 kids, and plenty of bills to make friends with…sigh…plenty
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
ZEB,
My point was that the issue is never as simple as ``experience leads to wisdom, [/quote]
But without experience how does one attain wisdom?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
ZEB,
My point was that the issue is never as simple as ``experience leads to wisdom, [/quote]
But without experience how does one attain wisdom?[/quote]
I never denied that experience was necessary for knowledge, only that it is sufficient. More specifically, I denied that having a mortgage'' or having a family’’ lead to insight on political issues. Paying a mortgage does not somehow make one an expert on macroeconomics, nor does having a family make one an expert on morality. Of course, both give one a higher stake in the issues. (Actually, I’d deny that having a mortgage is necessary for a deep understanding of macroeconomics, and likewise having a family and moral issues.)
Anyway, as I said I don’t think there’s much dispute between us. I will largely nod and agree with the things you said in your long reply to me. I think you separated the issues well.
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
political issues. Paying a mortgage does not somehow make one an expert on macroeconomics[/quote]
Right! But it does change your perception of what’s really important in life -And that all politics is inherently personal. When there is less experience there is less to base your personal perception on. Therefore, it is limited.