Keynes vs Hayek

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

I can’t believe you think the fact Africans are being exploited over natural resources has anything to do with capitalism… It’s the opposite of capitalism. [/quote]

Capitalism buys it resources as cheap as it can . Whether it is labor or oil , no difference , it is a commodity to exploit period.
[/quote]

I don’t mean to speak for usmc, but I believe he is stunned that you blame CAPITALISM for GOVERNMENT FORCING people to give up their land for less than its value. [/quote]

Yup…[/quote]

buying oil as cheap as possible

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

How about China? There middle class didn’t exist, what, 10 years ago.

I wouldn’t call many European countries “socialist”[/quote]

I think you are confusing Communism and Socialism . I am no expert on China but I do not think their form of Government is their problem , IMO it is corruption . Just like America , Mexico and a host of other countries

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Why are most people in 3rd nations poor?
"[/quote]

IMO because the Government is so unstable that companies are afraid to invest .

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

How about China? There middle class didn’t exist, what, 10 years ago.

I wouldn’t call many European countries “socialist”[/quote]

I think you are confusing Communism and Socialism . I am no expert on China but I do not think their form of Government is their problem , IMO it is corruption . Just like America , Mexico and a host of other countries
[/quote]

No I’m not.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
buying oil as cheap as possible
[/quote]

In the example you provided, the GOVERNMENT FORCED people off their land. That is not capitalism. In a capitalist society, the oil companies would have to pay the villagers the price for which they were willing to give up their land. What you have described is CRONY CAPITALISM, which is pretty much totally unrelated to true capitalism.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

I can’t believe you think the fact Africans are being exploited over natural resources has anything to do with capitalism… It’s the opposite of capitalism. [/quote]

Capitalism buys it resources as cheap as it can . Whether it is labor or oil , no difference , it is a commodity to exploit period.
[/quote]

I don’t mean to speak for usmc, but I believe he is stunned that you blame CAPITALISM for GOVERNMENT FORCING people to give up their land for less than its value. [/quote]

Yup…[/quote]

buying oil as cheap as possible
[/quote]

If the government didn’t force Africans to give up their land at gun point (and often with their lives) they could (via capitalism) negotiate a far amount for their land and/or labor.

Besides, my guess is, it’s not free market companies doing the drilling in Africa. It’s most like government run companies. Again, zero to do with capitalism.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
buying oil as cheap as possible
[/quote]

In the example you provided, the GOVERNMENT FORCED people off their land. That is not capitalism. In a capitalist society, the oil companies would have to pay the villagers the price for which they were willing to give up their land. What you have described is CRONY CAPITALISM, which is pretty much totally unrelated to true capitalism.[/quote]

from the oil companies prospective it is

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

If the government didn’t force Africans to give up their land at gun point (and often with their lives) they could (via capitalism) negotiate a far amount for their land and/or labor.

Besides, my guess is, it’s not free market companies doing the drilling in Africa. It’s most like government run companies. Again, zero to do with capitalism. [/quote]

in the original agreements water, sewage and electricity were promised but I guess bribing officials is cheaper than living up to your promise .

The problem is leaving vast numbers of disenfranchised people that will be the terrorists of tomorrow because with their brush with Western Capitalism

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

If the government didn’t force Africans to give up their land at gun point (and often with their lives) they could (via capitalism) negotiate a far amount for their land and/or labor.

Besides, my guess is, it’s not free market companies doing the drilling in Africa. It’s most like government run companies. Again, zero to do with capitalism. [/quote]

in the original agreements water, sewage and electricity were promised but I guess bribing officials is cheaper than living up to your promise .

The problem is leaving vast numbers of disenfranchised people that will be the terrorists of tomorrow because with their brush with Western Capitalism
[/quote]

What agreement are you talking about?

What brush with Western Capitalism?

[quote]in the original agreements water, sewage and electricity were promised but I guess bribing officials is cheaper than living up to your promise .

The problem is leaving vast numbers of disenfranchised people that will be the terrorists of tomorrow because with their brush with Western Capitalism [/quote]
My problem with this is that it’s the same arseholes who were causing problems under communism that are causing problems under capitalism.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
buying oil as cheap as possible In the example you provided, the GOVERNMENT FORCED people off their land. That is not capitalism. In a capitalist society, the oil companies would have to pay the villagers the price for which they were willing to give up their land. What you have described is CRONY CAPITALISM, which is pretty much totally unrelated to true capitalism.[/quote]

[/quote]

from the oil companies prospective it is
[/quote]

What? The oil companies don’t care if it’s actual capitalism. The oil companies are out to better themselves. That is human nature. They don’t care if it’s due to capitalism or not.

Allowing an entity with a near-monopoly on use of force(government) to be involved in the economy will ALWAYS be inviting situations just like the one in Africa. Don’t think so? Ever heard of eminent domain?

Government officials will also be out to better themselves, and should be expected to do so when offered the chance. They should not be given that kind of power.

Why not? You’ve just argued that the oil companies should be.

[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:

[quote]in the original agreements water, sewage and electricity were promised but I guess bribing officials is cheaper than living up to your promise .

The problem is leaving vast numbers of disenfranchised people that will be the terrorists of tomorrow because with their brush with Western Capitalism [/quote]
My problem with this is that it’s the same arseholes who were causing problems under communism that are causing problems under capitalism.
[/quote]

It’s not capitalism. It’s crony capitalism, which is just a form of socialism.

[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
Why not? You’ve just argued that the oil companies should be.[/quote]

Are you asking me?

No it isn’t. Like it or not, it’s the end result of capitalism. If you don’t regulate to break up monopolies, you end up with companies that are indistinguishable from states.
Socialism would involve placing power in the hands of a soviet, or worker’s group, which would decide on the ‘issues’ raised.

Yes, I am.

[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
No it isn’t. Like it or not, it’s the end result of capitalism. If you don’t regulate to break up monopolies, you end up with companies that are indistinguishable from states.
Socialism would involve placing power in the hands of a soviet, or worker’s group, which would decide on the ‘issues’ raised.

Yes, I am.[/quote]

I never said the oil companies should have the power to force anybody to do anything. An oil company would only be able to use that which they purchase at its value without the government forcing people to give up their land.

In the absence of a state and the presence of private property, people would likely have to organize themselves much like our current government system. They would most likely have to pay for a defense to protect against aggression. The major difference would be that inclusion would be voluntary.

Say we have a group of 10 people who each own 100 acres of land. They decide to group together and form a common defense for their lands. They decide to give each other free access to each other’s land. The neighbors of this new cooperative may begin to fear that the cooperative will then become aggressive, so they also form a cooperative. One of the members of the original cooperative begins to disagree with the way the cooperative is managed, so he pulls his land from the cooperative. He then fears aggression from the two neighboring cooperatives, so he organizes a third cooperative of 30 people who each own 100 acres. Eventually the cooperatives all grow so large that each spends too much time in fear of what the others will do to it that its “citizens” can’t get anything else done. The cooperatives all decide to come together and form a massive common defense. The difference between this massive, U.S.A.-sized cooperative and our current government is that each person would still be free to pull his 100 acre plot out of the cooperative. He would no longer have any right to any land other than that he owns, but he would still own 100% of his land. He would still trade with the cooperative, because who else would he trade with? He could still PAY for use of the cooperative’s land. I’m tired of typing, so I’ll leave it at this: Private property rights are the key ingredient in freedom which is missing from our country.

so·cial·ism
noun \Ë?sÅ?-shÉ?-Ë?li-zÉ?m\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies

Full Definition of SOCIALISM
1

: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2

a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3

: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

(Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:

[quote]in the original agreements water, sewage and electricity were promised but I guess bribing officials is cheaper than living up to your promise .

The problem is leaving vast numbers of disenfranchised people that will be the terrorists of tomorrow because with their brush with Western Capitalism [/quote]
My problem with this is that it’s the same arseholes who were causing problems under communism that are causing problems under capitalism.
[/quote]

By George I think he’s got it :slight_smile:

Look:
Do we want the same damn thing or not?
I want individual liberty. No sod that, I want for the powerful to stand up for the weak, and the state to allow me to distill cider into apple brandy.

[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
Look:
Do we want the same damn thing or not?
I want individual liberty. No sod that, I want for the powerful to stand up for the weak, and the state to allow me to distill cider into apple brandy.[/quote]

If you want the powerful to stand up for the weak, then we do not want the same thing. That will never happen, so I do not waste time wanting it. However, there are and always will be many more “weak” than “powerful”. That is where the weak’s power rests. The weak can raise a much more powerful fighting force to resist the powerful when need be. However, when the weak look to the powerful to protect them from the powerful, they show just how stupid they are.

If private property rights were respected, then you would be perfectly free to distill cider into apple brandy all you wanted. You would also be able to sell as much of that brandy as you wanted. You would just have to accept that you have no right to the money obtained by your neighbor for selling his superior brandy. Of course, you could always stop fooling with brandy-making, buy your neighbor’s, and start selling corn liquor, etc.

Screw that. My apple brandy would be the best.