Kerry Lied!

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack,

I see you are buying the party line hook line and sinker. Have you ever once listened to an explanation of how votes are generally on more than one single issue at a time?

The so called flip-flops you quote are meaningless. Just about everybody who isn’t a die hard republic knows this already. Harping on it like it matters just shows how sold you are.

Nothing wrong with being that brainwashed, er sold I mean, but maybe at some point consider learning to question what you are told by authorities. Blind trust can be dangerous.[/quote]

Fine vroom -

Throw out the $87 billion lie. We have him on tape saying it - I guess that don’t count because Kerry came out with yet another lie to explain the first one (It was late…I was tired…Theresa was on my ass…waahaa…). But disregard the $87 bil, that’s fine. My argument still holds.

RSU said Kerry never proposed a cut and run exit strategy - but he did.

To say that one cannot judge a person on their ‘raw voting record’, as you did in another thread, is just plain ignorant. Other than his voting record what does Kerry have? A bunch of french poker buddies?

To say that his voting record is off the table because us evil republicans may distort it is equally absent of common sense.

If Kerry is ashamed of his title of ‘Most Liberal Senator in the U.S.’, that’s not our problem. To want our side to stop exploiting his 30-year bleeding-heart, tax-and-spend record is …well… just because you drank the kool-aid, don’t expect us to ease up and overlook Kerry’s 30-year socialist agenda.

22

Rain/Thunder,

Why are you wasting your time on vroom?

I didn’t know anyone took him seriously.

Lumpy,

Did you contribute to John Kerry’s campaign?

I noticed you don’t believe in him enough to bet on his win.

It follows that you probably didn’t contribute to his campaign.

Pity.

JeffR

23

[quote]rainjack wrote:

If Kerry is ashamed of his title of ‘Most Liberal Senator in the U.S.’, that’s not our problem. To want our side to stop exploiting his 30-year bleeding-heart, tax-and-spend record is …well… just because you drank the kool-aid, don’t expect us to ease up and overlook Kerry’s 30-year socialist agenda.
[/quote]

– I thought I saw something that Kerry is actually the 11th most liberal senator…anyone else see this on one of the “fact check” segments on one of the news channels?

– When it comes to spending, I’m afraid Bush takes the cake. I can’t even conceive of how to spend what $7 trillion in under four years.

24

In Rainjack’s universe, Democrat = Socialist.

Well alrighty then!

25

[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
– I thought I saw something that Kerry is actually the 11th most liberal senator…anyone else see this on one of the “fact check” segments on one of the news channels?

– When it comes to spending, I’m afraid Bush takes the cake. I can’t even conceive of how to spend what $7 trillion in under four years.[/quote]

Whether he was 1st or 11th - he’s still a tax and spender. Him and cousin Teddy have little in the way of a record to be proud of.

I agree - Bush way overspent trying to appease the left-wingers(Gin-nosed Ted on education, the whole left side of the aisle on medicare). It’s coming back to bite him in the ass, too.

But if you think Bush’s $7 trillion shopping spree is bad - just hide and see what Frenchie Kerry will do if he gets his hands on the healthcare industry.

26

Rainjack,

I never said you could not look at his voting record. Go ahead. However, for each and every vote you have to know several things.

  1. There are additional items on most votes which may make it harder to know what item caused a persons vote.

  2. Most participants are voting along party lines, regardless of the content.

Taken together, the voting record is not a very good tool. You go ahead and buy into the bullshit you are being fed, that is fine.

It’s a lot less work to simply believe what you are told than to actually try to think for yourself and figure out what is really going on isn’t it?

27

Where did all this ‘black and white thinking is ignorant’ come from?

Having a clear view of right and wrong, yes and no, up and down, is and is not, or left or right seems to be a far more evolved thought process than the pasty, kumbaya-ish ‘it’s all relative’ mantra that many of the left have come out spewing. It seems that the word ‘nuance’ has a new level of respect with the left.

I mean - to dogs and pigs, everying is relative. There is no right. No wrong. I prefer to make a stand on what I believe to be right or wrong. I would much prefer a leader who has the cajones to do the same.

To those roaches out there that fear having the light of principles shined on their pathetic lives - a ‘nuanced’ justification might make you feel better about yourselves, but how long can you live under the stove?

28

Where does this kumbaya it’s all relative crap come from? I really don’t understand how looking into issues and making a reasoned decision has anything to do with that.

If you choose to think that ignoring complexities makes them go away, then I’m glad your view of the world is very simple for you. It’s too bad the world isn’t really that simple.

People are people. People screw up all the time. Both repulicans and democrats make poor decisions or ignore right and wrong when they are tempted by power, money, love or whatever.

Go stick your simple labels onto something else.

29

vroom -

I have no problem taking ‘complexities’ (nice jod on avoiding the ‘n’ word, by the way) into consideration. But it comes down to a very simple choice: On the whole, is it right, or is it wrong? Is it good, or is it bad?

Once you make the choice - live by it. I’m not trying to make a closed-minded judgement on what you think black or white is, that is totally up to you. But to gag your self on the over-examination of whatever ‘complexities’ surround an issue only paralyzes your ability to make a decision, right or wrong.

I have to disagree with your assertation that my thought process is simple. I probably just make more midstakes than you.

You’ll never hit a homerun sitting on the bench examining the pitcher. You gotta swing the damn bat. SOmetimes you strike out - but at least your in the freakin game.

30

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
In Rainjack’s universe, Democrat = Socialist.

Well alrighty then![/quote]

In Lumpy’s world -

Pro-Bush = Right-wing neo-con

Okie dokie.

31

Lumpy,

“Post the troop numbers if they are so impressive, Thunder. Lets see the impressive contributions of the coalotion members.”

What for? I’m not arguing that the contributions of the lesser members of the coalition are impressive.

Go reread my post and get back to me.

32

Vroom,

“Taken together, the voting record is not a very good tool. You go ahead and buy into the bullshit you are being fed, that is fine.”

The voting record is not a very good tool?

It’s the best tool. If a man spends 20 years in the Congress - whether he be liberal or conservative - the best measure of his work is his voting record. That’s his body of work, his resume.

Votes can be complicated - thanks to the expansion of attached riders onto legislation, you don’t always vote straightaway for a bill.

But that complexity doesn’t automatically reduce a voting record to useless. Without performance, what what would you measure on? Good looks? Choice in apparel?

Voting records are indicators of future performance. Forget the flip-flop issue on the $87 billion for a second - Kerry has been all over the map on Iraq, and I’m going all the way back to 1991 and everything in between.

Vroom, you’re just equivocating as a partisan. I daresay you would be less cavalier if was Dick Cheney’s voting record under scope.

33

Not to pick on you, RainJack, but your criticism of people for not taking your black and white worldview seems a bit immature. Loosely paraphrasing Franken, you love America like a 4-yr-old loves his mommy. Mommy has no flaws… Don’t say something negative about Mommy or you are a bad person. Some of us love America like fully grown, mature adults who recognize both positive and negative things that our country does, and we want to have some grown-up discussions about ways to improve our nation, its decisions, and its desision makers. Just like when we grow up and realize that our parents are imperfect, but it doesn’t change how much we love them. We just realize that they’re human.

The world is a very complex set of interwoven and overlapping systems, so unfortunately there are no easy answers. I do appreciate that you follow your gut and you believe in doing the right thing based on your belief system. That is a very strong and admirable quality. I am not saying that you are wrong or that you are bad. I’m merely trying to point out that sometimes the answer is complicated because there might be more information to consider than what you have taken into account.

34

If we are going to post the troop numbers here for the Iraq war, can we also post the numbers or more importantly the percentages for desert storm/First gulf war? I’d be interested to see if they were much different. If I remember right it was majority American Back then with GB in secon with maybe 5-10k troops. Oh the french had 1000 or so, that would really be helping us out right now.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

35

[quote]Roy Batty wrote:
Not to pick on you, RainJack, but your criticism of people for not taking your black and white worldview seems a bit immature. Loosely paraphrasing Franken, you love America like a 4-yr-old loves his mommy. Mommy has no flaws… [/quote]

I’m not criticizing the ‘we’re so smart we can’t make up our mind’ crowd. If you read all of the posts - I believe I am defending the thought processes that lead to a principled leader.

I don’t need anyone to tell me that the world is complex. Evidently, those of us who see things as they are without the ‘nuanced’ dissection that has now become the liberal in-thing, have become immature and simple minded in our thought processes.

Given the choice of being able to make a decision and stand by it - ala Reagan, and now Bush - or being like Al Franken, well…pass the jelly-bellies, and let’s talk strategery.

36

[quote]Roy Batty wrote:
Not to pick on you, RainJack, but your criticism of people for not taking your black and white worldview seems a bit immature. Loosely paraphrasing Franken, you love America like a 4-yr-old loves his mommy. Mommy has no flaws… Don’t say something negative about Mommy or you are a bad person. Some of us love America like fully grown, mature adults who recognize both positive and negative things that our country does, and we want to have some grown-up discussions about ways to improve our nation, its decisions, and its desision makers. Just like when we grow up and realize that our parents are imperfect, but it doesn’t change how much we love them. We just realize that they’re human.

The world is a very complex set of interwoven and overlapping systems, so unfortunately there are no easy answers. I do appreciate that you follow your gut and you believe in doing the right thing based on your belief system. That is a very strong and admirable quality. I am not saying that you are wrong or that you are bad. I’m merely trying to point out that sometimes the answer is complicated because there might be more information to consider than what you have taken into account. [/quote]

Roy:

I don’t think rainjack is taking a simplistic view at all!

If someone breaks into your home at 3:00am to harm your family you can do many things. You can sit up in bed and think “now why would someone want to harm my family.” You can then start to break down the motives of the intruder. You might even be able to figure out who they are and why they really want to harm your family. All good things.

The problem is that in the meantime harm may have already come to your family. Better if you would have sprinted from your bed with gun (or whatever) in hand and subdued the intruder (as I am sure you would do).

Yes, the world is a complicated place, no argument here. However, after 9-11 we had to sprint from our then state of sedation and take action! President Bush did this. We found Bin Laden’s men basking in the safety of Afghanistan. We invaded, defeated them and drove them out! As you know that country just celebrated it’s first democratic election. Brought to you by America and President Bush. Would you call that simplistic thinking?

The same thing is about to take place in a country that was a haven for terrorists, Iraq. I know that Iraq did not directly attack America. However, Saddam was enough of a potential threat, and did give safe harbor to terrorists in the past. Did have weapons of mass destruction at one time. Was ready to ramp up his weapons systems once again. Did defy UN sanctions. And unfortuneately we could not have waited for him to become even stronger before we took a action!

Black and white and simplistic thinking? I don’t think so. It’s more like taking action when the moment called for it. Two democratic nations that were formerly run by dictators is a good thing. Eventually, even you will admit that, I bet :wink:

rainjack is correct!

37

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
Also, France has one of the largest armies in the world, if I am not mistaken they are ranked approximately #6 as a world military power. They are most definitely in the top ten.
[/quote]

That’s a good one, Lumpy. France a military power…they were 0-for the 20th century, and would be speaking german right now were it not for us evil imperialist americans.

They have been mired in a stagnant economy since who knows when. In order to improve their sagging self-image, they enter into a deal with Sadaam to keep us out of Iraq.

But you just keep thinking France is a power - tell all you friends that…and try to keep a straight face while doing it.

38

I dont get the crap about “our allies.” when they stop helping us when we need them, they are no longer “allies” in the truest sense of the word. And how the hell you gonna get somebody to help when they are being bribed by Saddam? oil for food anyone? given the choice of major money in my pocket or a poor rating among my contry and possibly losing my job, i would likely take the money.