for anyone iterested in the history of matches and winners…
http://www.ufcfightnews.com/ufc/inreview.html
has through #31, in 2001.
Oddly the UFC official site doesn’t have a history page listng all the fights, or at least I couldn’t find it.
Regardless if Ken wasn’t used to throwing high kicks or not, I think he did throw that fight. 1st slip was a real bad atempt at throwing the fight, reason being he didn’t even try to shoot for an ankle lock so to say he did it intentionally to get a submission or to confuse him is not valid. Also he fell backwards right before he was swung at, then after he hit the ground he went for the ankle. And on the second slip, the high kick wasn’t even close. Ken has been fighting a lot of years, even if he’s not an elite fighter like some on this thread suggested, you cannot believe that the fight was not thrown. He didn’t even have a good mount, he could have rolled back slightly and lifted his left leg and pushed/kicked him back? And the Bonner fight, I believe Dana probably told them if they make it good they’ll give 2 contracts.
Also to have the announcer’s Rogan and the other guy, tout that it was the best fight ever not one of the best is a give away right there. I was thinking about buying the fight the week-end, but I’m seriously thinking otherwise now. But then again would I pay 29.95 to see 2-3 fights like the Bonner fight, especially if Dana can make Chuck and Randy stand up and put a show on even if the winner is picked before…For sure I would!
Mack, I agree with you completely. Someone tried to say Ken was shooting, but his feet were in the air and his body moving backwards. There was never any real forward momentum, except for a step to the left before the “fall”. It was all summed up at the end by Ken and by Samdiesel above, “To be a legend, you have to beat a legend.” All these new viewers watching the Ultimate Fighter and then this finale had to have been impressed by this “huge events”.
Same with the Bonner/Forrest fight. Not sure if Dana told them both they’d get contracts, but I’m sure he asked them to keep it on the feet and just slug it out. But what you said could be a possibility as well. Never know, but I’m not sure I’ll be paying to see UFC anymore. It’s really been feeling more like WWF to me with all the hyped trash-talking and suspicious matches. Give me PRIDE FC anyday, or King of the Cage or any of the other tournaments. I’m afraid UFC has been doing some crooked business for a while and is selling out the true fans that helped it get to where it is today. Even after the SEG blackout years.
[quote]Lohryx5 wrote:
…Additionally, Spike TV only gave them five minutes for that last match and would have pulled the plug if they started to run overtime…[/quote]
Source/link?
I have trouble believing that statement. Spike usually goes at least ten minutes over their time-slot with WWE. Doesn’t everyone remember tuning in at 10:00 to watch TUF, and lo-and-behold, there is some huge guy with a huge belt screaming something nonsensical? I do.
~Terumo
Because WWE has in their contract whereas TUF and the finale were new. That last fight had less than 15 minutes of airtime to do the fight and post fight wrap up. And how many other fights did you not get to see that night? A bunch.
To those interested:
Below is the pay scale for UFC 51 as released by the Nevada State Athletic Commission (all figures are in US dollars):
Ken Shamrock: $230,000 to show, $0 to win
Rich Franklin: $7,000 to show, $7,000 to win
Forrest Griffin: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Diego Sanchez: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Nate Quarry: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Josh Koscheck: USD$6,000 to show, USD$5,000 to win
Chris Leben: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Mike Swick: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Sam Hoger: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Alex Karalexis: $5,000 to show, $5,000 to win
Stephan Bonnar: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Kenny Florian: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Lodune Sincaid: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Alex Schoenauer: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Josh Rafferty: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Bobby Southworth: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Chris Sanford: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Jason Thacker: $5,000 to show, win bonus would’ve been $5,000
Total Fighter Payroll: $364,000
Looks like Ken had no reason to win. He was already going to get $230,000 just for showing up. That’s 63% of the total payroll to just one fighter.
Plus, from Fightsport.com:
In yet another in the long line of bombshell reports, this cyber-reporting stud has just learned of a huge exclusive. As long term and reliable sources in Iowa have informed me, Zuffa is planning on matching up Ken Shamrock with Chuck Liddell in a future event.
As it was explained to me, Ken was promised both a shot at the winner of Liddell/Couture II and a rematch with Tito Ortiz in exchange for his participation in the TUF season finale.
It was also explained to me that Ken is still viewed as the biggest ratings draw for Zuffa by far, and that Zuffa plans on having Liddell defeat Shamrock to help build his star status among mainstream fans, much as Zuffa did with Rich Franklin.
As it is currently planned, Ken and Chuck will face each other next and neither will fight another opponent first. Though as always, plans can be changed depending on future circumstances.
Hmmm, take a dive with Franklin, in return for a large amount of cash and a title match with Lidell? Sounds plausible to me.
Chuck will massacre Ken whether he is trying to win or not.
For me the second slip is the most suspicious. The first one he could’ve been trying to trick Franklin, it did almost result in a submission. The second one however looked fake. I’ve seen people slip while trying to throw a kick, that is not what it looks like. He didn’t even get his leg up in the air, he just kinda fell over.
[quote]StevenF wrote:
Chuck will massacre Ken whether he is trying to win or not.[/quote]
To speak like a WWE fan, it seems like a bad idea not to feed Ken someone before Chuck, if they want Chuck crushing Ken to mean something in spite of the Franklin loss.
my first thought when I read that Ken might fight Chuck was, “wow, he must really like getting punched in the face.”
He’ll get eye gouged by Liddell. That seems to be Liddell’s method of winning as of late. White, Ortiz, Couture…all gouged by Chuck “The Icepick” Liddell. Or should that be “Eyespick”…
Got this off another forum, a pro wrestling board in fact, it’s a post by Dave Meltzer who writes the Wrestling Observer newsletter, which also covers MMA…
As far as Shamrock. No matter what happens, there is nobody in 1995 you could say was a better fighter than Ken Shamrock. The best competitive fighters by record at the time were Rutten, who he destroyed, and Royce, who he would have won a unanimous decision over had there been judges in the fight. Times change and fighters change. Shamrock never had a real fight until he was 28 years old and unlike someone like Couture who started older, he never competed constantly at an Olympic level in a sport like amateur wrestling until the day he switched over (in fact, Couture still competed at a world class wrestler in wrestling for a year after startig in MMA, until he realized his wrestling training was giving him tendencies that cost him submissions and had to focus on one or the other).
Shamrock was a pro wrestler who was taught submissions, and the rest, from a relatively late starting age and with no sports background after playing JC football years earlier. He had to learn through trial and error. Younger guys learning more effective versions (less trial and error now that we have a sport and people know what works) from the age of 16 are going to be world’s ahead. Royce Gracie wouldn’t do well today against top competition, nor would Dan Severn or Oleg Taktarov. Big deal, nobody in the NBA from the 60s except the greatest players could even make a team today because they’d be too small, but you can’t downgrade them as players or you’re ignorant about sports. MMA from 1995 to 2005 has evolved the equivalent of 40 years of a real sport.
Knocking Ken for doing worked matches in Pancrase shows a total lack of understanding of Pancrase. It’s as silly as knocking Karelin as an athlete for doing a worked match in RINGS.
More, on the Ken-Bas thing. For years people have tried to dismiss that Ken twice submitted Rutten because Rutten was some green rookie. Ken’s first real match of any kind (aside from maybe a shoot against a kickboxer) was late 1993. Bas was competitive under kick boxer years before Ken started fighting. Bas’ debut in Pancrase was on either its first or second show, so at most, Ken, when it came to competition in submission fighting, had either zero, or at most, a one month experience edge on Bas.
It’s fashionable to knock Ken because he’s old, because he was a product of hype (which made him the biggest non-boxer or pro wrestler PPV draw in the history of the U.S.), and because the skill level of him in his athletic prime (and I’d argue his athletic prime was really before he ever started fighting in the first place) wasn’t up to the level of today’s fighters. But if you look at him from late 1993 until he left for pro wrestling in 1996, based on the competition that was out there, he ranks with the top of what was there at the time.
He had one legit loss, to Royce Gracie, and the experience level of Ken, with one match, and that under totally different rules, and Royce, with a century of family training for real fighting was significant. When they were rematched, while Ken’s performance was not good either, had there been judges, he easily won the fight. More, since that time, in 10 years, Royce has turned down every big money offer for a rematch of what was his most famous fight, so in his heart, he knows he can’t win.
His losses to Suzuki were both business. His loss to Severn was a fight he deserved to lose, but to say Severn beat him is a joke, but Shamrock’s win over Severn was as clear cut as possible, and Severn dominated everyone else in those days. He beat everyone else in his path. Were his submission skills like Nogueira? Of course not. Were his striking skills decent by today’s standards? Of course not, he never seriously trained in striking with real coaches until he was something like 37. But of the guys of his era who laid it on the line in competition, he was considered by the fighters themselves as No. 1, and without question he was among the best, and you can make a strong argument he was the best.
He lived a hard life and made bad choices. His own fault. At 41, there is a difference in Shamrock vs. Couture because one lived one way and one lived a different way, and at 30 it doesn’t make a ton of difference, but at 40 it makes all the difference in the world. Even if he hadn’t, at 41, given his late start and the evolvement of the sport, he’d have been hard pressed to hang with a 27-year-old who started at this at 17.
Also from Melzter, I thought I’d post it as it explains the worked matches he did in Pancrase…
Ken did a job, not a worked match, for Suzuki because Pancrase asked him to and they were paying his salary.
Ken was King of Pancrase champ and was about to face Dan Severn, the NWA champ of fake wrestling. While Ken ended up beating Severn, Pancrase, proclaimed as real, couldn’t risk that their world champion would lose to a fake wrestling world champion, so they asked him to drop the title.
His other two jobs were one to Suzuki, because Pancrase’s business at the time was based on Suzuki and Funaki both being strong, and Suzuki needed a win in management’s eyes.
His other, to Funaki, came a few days before his rematch with Royce. Ken tried to cancel the match, as he didn’t want to go to Japan before what was in his mind his biggest fight. They had him under contract and ordered him to come. He did tank the match to Funaki, and everyone acknowledged it. He told them he refused to risk getting an injury when he felt he needed to be 100% for Royce. In hindsight, nobody remembers the Funaki match and everyone remembers the Royce match, even in Japan, since Royce vs. Ken got more pub than any American match of its era.
When tennis players do similar things, they are not looked at badly.
The issue is Pancrase was 1993-95 was evolving from pro wrestling to pure MMA. They were learning what did and didn’t work, and also having to keep Suzuki and Funaki strong (as it turned out, I never heard of anyone losing on purpose to Funaki other than Ken, and that was his doing) or the company would have died. Just as Funaki put over Kondo the first time because management believed they needed to create a young star, and Kondo was the best new fighter they had. They had pro wrestling roots and also thought they had to protect their titles and had to keep themselves in business. It is what it is, but you can’t discredit Ken Shamrock for management decisions.
After 1996 or so, they had a different mindset. The funny thing is, the company never was anywhere close to as popular as it was with the old more protective mindset.
Some of you guys and your conspiracy theories are laughable. Especially anyone quoting fightsport as a source. fightsport is the dregs of mma internet sites.