K9 Officer Dead, Town Outraged

Off Topic
142

First off, I didn’t read all 6 pages of posts.

I tend to agree with TheBodyGuard. After the advent of the taser, pepper spray, and various other stand off less than lethal and less common (hell, our officers carry both of the above) the K9 has become a more specialized tool. Getting tased (for the most part) most people will be fine afterwards, same goes for pepper spray. Getting bit by a 100 lb dog really sucks, even if you don’t need stitches, if you do, there is alot of pain for quite a while. Might as well bring back the baton, and beat people with it.

In Shutzhound, the basic training of protection (attack) dogs, the dog is trained to be aggressive acting on command, but not bite unless also commanded. On various TV shows and once with my own eyes, I have seen officers using the dog as an intimidation.

The dog is going berserk on the end of the lead, while the other officers are doing whatever, sometimes with the weapons drawn, other times with something else in hand (spray, taser) but yelling at the suspect to do something, all at once, generally a scene of mayhem. Asking somebody to lay down infront of very threatening dog, where the officer may or nay not have actually said that he will let him bite you if you don’t comply is complete shit.

In all cases, it looks like they just want the dog to bite you, because if you were to do something stupid, and the dog is allowed to bite, then the spray,taser, or firearm is now aimed or worse fired at the K9 (who we already know everyone is all about kissing their ass). So WTF? Tactically its unsound in several ways, including it just increases the tension in an already tense situation.

After the suspect is “cornered” the dog should be taken away, and allowed to bit its bite toy to finish the exercise (the end result of almost all the exercises in Shutzhound,the reward is the actual biting). Give them an opportunity to comply, then tase them. The taser is also another prick in my ass, in one show (one of the police women shows), the deputy says “There is never a bad time for a taser.” But I won’t go down that road.

In general, I think these tools are used appropriatly, but there will always be circumstances where people abuse them, and its easy to, because you can can say your sorry afterward, unlike shooting someone in the face.

Bottom line is the dog should be relegated to “herding” the suspect, but not making “arrests” unless under special circumstances. Personally I think that departments us dogs as “evidence” and are disposable. If we send the dog after you, and you try and kill it, then we kill you with plenty of evidence of your intent to bring to court to protect ourselves from civil court cases.

Its easier and less expensive to replace a dog than an officer, or if someone shoots the suspect because he thought he saw something with no evidence.

143

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]angus_beef wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
People that don’t like dogs are soulless cocksuckers.[/quote]

Along with people that kill cattle for food and hunt dear for sport. These meat eating, dear hunting cock suckers ![/quote]

'cause those are all the same thing… Clearly we’re dealing with a mental giant.[/quote]

Let’s pump the brakes for a second…I assumed that post was a typical T-Nation sarcastic, “fuck everyone with a different opinion than me” post, but apparently you were serious? I don’t like dogs, but there are a lot of things I don’t like. It doesn’t mean I think their life is worthless, either. I view a dog in the same light as nearly every other animal. In fact, if you view a dog as having more worth than, say, a turtle, I think you are a soulless cocksucker.[/quote]

If I had a turtle that was intuitive enough to comfort me when I was in a bad mood, or play with another turtle and get into all kinds of awesome turtle shenannigans, or just turtle around and enjoy my company, then yeah I’d agree that they’re equal.

144

[quote]cct wrote:
So you would save your dog before you save your own mother, wife, and kids?!
Get out of here. You’re a disgrace to the human species.
Why don’t you become a dog, you wanna-be-dog. Why don’t you go marry a dog and go live the forest with the rest of the wolf pack?[/quote]

^^hahahahahaha! That sounds like response of a 9 year old!

“Oh yeah! You wanna-be-dog! Get out of her doggy dog boy! Go marry a dog if you love dogs so much!” hahahaha lulz!

145

[quote]Section 8 wrote:
First off, I didn’t read all 6 pages of posts.

I tend to agree with TheBodyGuard. After the advent of the taser, pepper spray, and various other stand off less than lethal and less common (hell, our officers carry both of the above) the K9 has become a more specialized tool. Getting tased (for the most part) most people will be fine afterwards, same goes for pepper spray. Getting bit by a 100 lb dog really sucks, even if you don’t need stitches, if you do, there is alot of pain for quite a while. Might as well bring back the baton, and beat people with it.

In Shutzhound, the basic training of protection (attack) dogs, the dog is trained to be aggressive acting on command, but not bite unless also commanded. On various TV shows and once with my own eyes, I have seen officers using the dog as an intimidation. The dog is going berserk on the end of the lead, while the other officers are doing whatever, sometimes with the weapons drawn, other times with something else in hand (spray, taser) but yelling at the suspect to do something, all at once, generally a scene of mayhem. Asking somebody to lay down infront of very threatening dog, where the officer may or nay not have actually said that he will let him bite you if you don’t comply is complete shit. In all cases, it looks like they just want the dog to bite you, because if you were to do something stupid, and the dog is allowed to bite, then the spray,taser, or firearm is now aimed or worse fired at the K9 (who we already know everyone is all about kissing their ass). So WTF? Tactically its unsound in several ways, including it just increases the tension in an already tense situation. After the suspect is “cornered” the dog should be taken away, and allowed to bit its bite toy to finish the exercise (the end result of almost all the exercises in Shutzhound,the reward is the actual biting). Give them an opportunity to comply, then tase them. The taser is also another prick in my ass, in one show (one of the police women shows), the deputy says “There is never a bad time for a taser.” But I won’t go down that road. In general, I think these tools are used appropriatly, but there will always be circumstances where people abuse them, and its easy to, because you can can say your sorry afterward, unlike shooting someone in the face.

Bottom line is the dog should be relegated to “herding” the suspect, but not making “arrests” unless under special circumstances. Personally I think that departments us dogs as “evidence” and are disposable. If we send the dog after you, and you try and kill it, then we kill you with plenty of evidence of your intent to bring to court to protect ourselves from civil court cases. Its easier and less expensive to replace a dog than an officer, or if someone shoots the suspect because he thought he saw something with no evidence.[/quote]

A small point; please understand that schuzhund is sport. Police K9 dogs do not necessarily undergo this exact training. Many may hold Sch designations or titles, the are trained further. Because Sch is sport, it is not entirely useful for the actual task of policing and attacking.

And although a dog might be trained to attack on command or when a suspect tries to be aggressive, I am very troubled by the practice of releasing a dog to pursue and apprehend a suspect where the HANDLER CANNOT BE PRESENT AT THE POINT OF CONTACT.

That dog needs to be under the control of the handling officer at all times, except as you have pointed out, the most extreme cases. Even well trained dogs are still just dogs. And getting bitten as a condition of arrest is, in my opinion, more often than not, excessive force.

146

Dogs were pretty much domesticated with food. If you believe that animals love “unconditionally”, stop feeding them and report back to me about the love. I love dogs. But I hate anthropomorphism more than I love dogs.

147

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Dogs were pretty much domesticated with food. If you believe that animals love “unconditionally”, stop feeding them and report back to me about the love. I love dogs. But I hate anthropomorphism more than I love dogs. [/quote]

I already tried to tell them this, but dog-lovers won’t hear it. They sure are great when every physiological need is met…

148

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
In fact, if you view a dog as having more worth than, say, a turtle, I think you are a soulless cocksucker.[/quote]

lulz! no one cares about turtles you turd[/quote]

Fuck you man! Loudog’s got my back. Did you see that lameass pigeon get owned by that turtle?

149

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]angus_beef wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
People that don’t like dogs are soulless cocksuckers.[/quote]

Along with people that kill cattle for food and hunt dear for sport. These meat eating, dear hunting cock suckers ![/quote]

'cause those are all the same thing… Clearly we’re dealing with a mental giant.[/quote]

Let’s pump the brakes for a second…I assumed that post was a typical T-Nation sarcastic, “fuck everyone with a different opinion than me” post, but apparently you were serious? I don’t like dogs, but there are a lot of things I don’t like. It doesn’t mean I think their life is worthless, either. I view a dog in the same light as nearly every other animal. In fact, if you view a dog as having more worth than, say, a turtle, I think you are a soulless cocksucker.[/quote]

If I had a turtle that was intuitive enough to comfort me when I was in a bad mood, or play with another turtle and get into all kinds of awesome turtle shenannigans, or just turtle around and enjoy my company, then yeah I’d agree that they’re equal.[/quote]

Again, you’re ascribing a much higher order of intelligence to dogs than they are due. Pet birds do the exact same thing you just described because your moods, particularly distress, are easy to discern to many animals. But I don’t hear anybody getting their panties in a bunch when birds are killed for sport, or “in the line of duty.”

150

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]angus_beef wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
People that don’t like dogs are soulless cocksuckers.[/quote]

Along with people that kill cattle for food and hunt dear for sport. These meat eating, dear hunting cock suckers ![/quote]

'cause those are all the same thing… Clearly we’re dealing with a mental giant.[/quote]

Let’s pump the brakes for a second…I assumed that post was a typical T-Nation sarcastic, “fuck everyone with a different opinion than me” post, but apparently you were serious? I don’t like dogs, but there are a lot of things I don’t like. It doesn’t mean I think their life is worthless, either. I view a dog in the same light as nearly every other animal. In fact, if you view a dog as having more worth than, say, a turtle, I think you are a soulless cocksucker.[/quote]

If I had a turtle that was intuitive enough to comfort me when I was in a bad mood, or play with another turtle and get into all kinds of awesome turtle shenannigans, or just turtle around and enjoy my company, then yeah I’d agree that they’re equal.[/quote]

Again, you’re ascribing a much higher order of intelligence to dogs than they are due. Pet birds do the exact same thing you just described because your moods, particularly distress, are easy to discern to many animals. But I don’t hear anybody getting their panties in a bunch when birds are killed for sport, or “in the line of duty.”[/quote]

They have attack birds now on the police force? Way cool, fucking eagles and shit. :slight_smile:

151

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]angus_beef wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
People that don’t like dogs are soulless cocksuckers.[/quote]

Along with people that kill cattle for food and hunt dear for sport. These meat eating, dear hunting cock suckers ![/quote]

'cause those are all the same thing… Clearly we’re dealing with a mental giant.[/quote]

Let’s pump the brakes for a second…I assumed that post was a typical T-Nation sarcastic, “fuck everyone with a different opinion than me” post, but apparently you were serious? I don’t like dogs, but there are a lot of things I don’t like. It doesn’t mean I think their life is worthless, either. I view a dog in the same light as nearly every other animal. In fact, if you view a dog as having more worth than, say, a turtle, I think you are a soulless cocksucker.[/quote]

If I had a turtle that was intuitive enough to comfort me when I was in a bad mood, or play with another turtle and get into all kinds of awesome turtle shenannigans, or just turtle around and enjoy my company, then yeah I’d agree that they’re equal.[/quote]

Pet pigs do all the above. Are people who eat pigs cocksuckers?

152

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]caladin wrote:
Sorry If Im a bad guy for saying this but my dogs or for that matter any dog is as important to me as any human would be. Its called Unconditional Love dogs have it humans dont. Dont get me wrong I would save my family over a dog I didnt know but I consider one of my own dogs as important as any other family member because to me they are my family. I dont care for humans outside of my family so maybe that is the issue. Im just calling it as I see it.[/quote]

You just made a massive assumption based on nothing other than your conjecture. “Unconditional love” is a pretty vague thing, and it certainly cannot be so easily ascribed to a creature that can’t relate it thoughts. What you call unconditional love I call an animal behaving in a manner that will reward it with food. Strip that animal from it’s daily regiment of food and you have a nasty beast that will readily revert to its base instincts. Don’t believe me? Insert yourself into a pack of strays and see if they treat you with any compassion.[/quote]

This is very true. A dog is reliable because you care for it. That was the bond established between us for centuries. It will not show “unconditional love” if you quit feeding it and caring for it. It will return to its most basic instincts for survival.

There have been dogs found after their owners have died having eaten much of the remaining body.[/quote]

It looks like we are back to page 3.

153

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]caladin wrote:
Sorry If Im a bad guy for saying this but my dogs or for that matter any dog is as important to me as any human would be. Its called Unconditional Love dogs have it humans dont. Dont get me wrong I would save my family over a dog I didnt know but I consider one of my own dogs as important as any other family member because to me they are my family. I dont care for humans outside of my family so maybe that is the issue. Im just calling it as I see it.[/quote]

You just made a massive assumption based on nothing other than your conjecture. “Unconditional love” is a pretty vague thing, and it certainly cannot be so easily ascribed to a creature that can’t relate it thoughts. What you call unconditional love I call an animal behaving in a manner that will reward it with food. Strip that animal from it’s daily regiment of food and you have a nasty beast that will readily revert to its base instincts. Don’t believe me? Insert yourself into a pack of strays and see if they treat you with any compassion.[/quote]

This is very true. A dog is reliable because you care for it. That was the bond established between us for centuries. It will not show “unconditional love” if you quit feeding it and caring for it. It will return to its most basic instincts for survival.

There have been dogs found after their owners have died having eaten much of the remaining body.[/quote]

This is fucking retarded. There have also been dogs that died of starvation sitting next to their dead owner when the body was finally found. A dog knows who cares for it. It does not judge or nitpick. It is happy to see you when you get home and loves you UNCONDITIONALLY, no matter if you got fired or are having trouble bringing food home. If you’re saying that if you stick a dog on a chain staked to a tree in the front yard, stop feeding it and let it fend for it’s own, then yeah it’ll probably get mean. So would you. That’s not what we’re talking about here so I don’t see what you’re point is other than arguing to argue.[/quote]

Gee, where was all of this fire when Bodyguard wrote the same fucking thing pages later?

154

155

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]caladin wrote:
Sorry If Im a bad guy for saying this but my dogs or for that matter any dog is as important to me as any human would be. Its called Unconditional Love dogs have it humans dont. Dont get me wrong I would save my family over a dog I didnt know but I consider one of my own dogs as important as any other family member because to me they are my family. I dont care for humans outside of my family so maybe that is the issue. Im just calling it as I see it.[/quote]

You just made a massive assumption based on nothing other than your conjecture. “Unconditional love” is a pretty vague thing, and it certainly cannot be so easily ascribed to a creature that can’t relate it thoughts. What you call unconditional love I call an animal behaving in a manner that will reward it with food. Strip that animal from it’s daily regiment of food and you have a nasty beast that will readily revert to its base instincts. Don’t believe me? Insert yourself into a pack of strays and see if they treat you with any compassion.[/quote]

This is very true. A dog is reliable because you care for it. That was the bond established between us for centuries. It will not show “unconditional love” if you quit feeding it and caring for it. It will return to its most basic instincts for survival.

There have been dogs found after their owners have died having eaten much of the remaining body.[/quote]

This is fucking retarded. There have also been dogs that died of starvation sitting next to their dead owner when the body was finally found. A dog knows who cares for it. It does not judge or nitpick. It is happy to see you when you get home and loves you UNCONDITIONALLY, no matter if you got fired or are having trouble bringing food home. If you’re saying that if you stick a dog on a chain staked to a tree in the front yard, stop feeding it and let it fend for it’s own, then yeah it’ll probably get mean. So would you. That’s not what we’re talking about here so I don’t see what you’re point is other than arguing to argue.[/quote]

Gee, where was all of this fire when Bodyguard wrote the same fucking thing pages later?[/quote]

I’d happily correct him. Some dogs are more capable than others but most would certainly begin to go a bit feral. Food is how we “tamed” them. Trust me, stop feeding them, and let someone else come along with food and they will happily leave your ass. In fact, most dogs will happily transfer ownership with no real long term objection or problem - and that’s a fact. Their “love” I assure you is very conditional.

156

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

A small point; please understand that schuzhund is sport. Police K9 dogs do not necessarily undergo this exact training. Many may hold Sch designations or titles, the are trained further. Because Sch is sport, it is not entirely useful for the actual task of policing and attacking.

And although a dog might be trained to attack on command or when a suspect tries to be aggressive, I am very troubled by the practice of releasing a dog to pursue and apprehend a suspect where the HANDLER CANNOT BE PRESENT AT THE POINT OF CONTACT.

That dog needs to be under the control of the handling officer at all times, except as you have pointed out, the most extreme cases. Even well trained dogs are still just dogs. And getting bitten as a condition of arrest is, in my opinion, more often than not, excessive force.[/quote]

I agree with that the training isn’t the same, after a certain milestone the paths diverge. My general push was that the initial bite training is the same (what works, works).

157

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]caladin wrote:
Sorry If Im a bad guy for saying this but my dogs or for that matter any dog is as important to me as any human would be. Its called Unconditional Love dogs have it humans dont. Dont get me wrong I would save my family over a dog I didnt know but I consider one of my own dogs as important as any other family member because to me they are my family. I dont care for humans outside of my family so maybe that is the issue. Im just calling it as I see it.[/quote]

You just made a massive assumption based on nothing other than your conjecture. “Unconditional love” is a pretty vague thing, and it certainly cannot be so easily ascribed to a creature that can’t relate it thoughts. What you call unconditional love I call an animal behaving in a manner that will reward it with food. Strip that animal from it’s daily regiment of food and you have a nasty beast that will readily revert to its base instincts. Don’t believe me? Insert yourself into a pack of strays and see if they treat you with any compassion.[/quote]

This is very true. A dog is reliable because you care for it. That was the bond established between us for centuries. It will not show “unconditional love” if you quit feeding it and caring for it. It will return to its most basic instincts for survival.

There have been dogs found after their owners have died having eaten much of the remaining body.[/quote]

This is fucking retarded. There have also been dogs that died of starvation sitting next to their dead owner when the body was finally found. A dog knows who cares for it. It does not judge or nitpick. It is happy to see you when you get home and loves you UNCONDITIONALLY, no matter if you got fired or are having trouble bringing food home. If you’re saying that if you stick a dog on a chain staked to a tree in the front yard, stop feeding it and let it fend for it’s own, then yeah it’ll probably get mean. So would you. That’s not what we’re talking about here so I don’t see what you’re point is other than arguing to argue.[/quote]

Gee, where was all of this fire when Bodyguard wrote the same fucking thing pages later?[/quote]

I’d happily correct him. Some dogs are more capable than others but most would certainly begin to go a bit feral. Food is how we “tamed” them. Trust me, stop feeding them, and let someone else come along with food and they will happily leave your ass. In fact, most dogs will happily transfer ownership with no real long term objection or problem - and that’s a fact. Their “love” I assure you is very conditional.
[/quote]

I agree to a point but it’s more than a provide me food and i’ll do what you want relationship. If my dogs are out running in the yard and I call them to me, they come not because they think I am going to give them food that instant. They come because I am thier leader. They respect me as an authority figure and for whatever reason are happy as hell anytime I come home, even if I have been out for 5 minutes.

I’m not going to hate on the criminal, I think I said before I would have probably tried killing the dog too. But I can also understand “the town” or probably closer to the truth, Pet lovers within the town, feeling loss for what happened. I do think calling a dog an “officer” is silly and yes the guy should not be charged with animal cruelty or any other such nonsense. I’m not outraged though because Oh Suprise! Humans overreact to something.

It is what it is but the thing that annoys me is the guys saying, “it’s just a fucking dog”. I just think thats a real shitty attitude and reeks of arrogance and immaturity. Something doesn’t need to be “smarter” than you or have an opposable thumb to have your respect.

V

158

I respect them and love them - especially working dogs. Your dog may run to you when called but believe me it’s only because of its conditioning that you are the provider for food shelter and social stimulation. I can come pick up your dog tomorrow and after a week he’ll be running happily go me too - and that’s the cold hard truth my friend. I’ve owned or kept over 100 dogs and a good number of those dogs were given to me as adults, young adults or yearlings. Now, some breeds are more “sensitive” than others, but most will do quite fine in another family. Part of the care you do provide is social stimulation, not just food. Bottom line, their so called love is not unconditional. Your love is not unconditional either - let him bite your child and tell me how much you still love your dog. We love our pets, this is understandable, but the arguments and emotions in their defense are hardly rational.

159

Um scuse me - I need internet acknowledgement!

I said - people will have dogs who go sheet outside and then have them jump right in their bedz. If that aint nasty then what is?

Speak up if you let your dog lay down in your bed.

160

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I respect them and love them - especially working dogs. Your dog may run to you when called but believe me it’s only because of its conditioning that you are the provider for food shelter and social stimulation. I can come pick up your dog tomorrow and after a week he’ll be running happily go me too - and that’s the cold hard truth my friend. I’ve owned or kept over 100 dogs and a good number of those dogs were given to me as adults, young adults or yearlings. Now, some breeds are more “sensitive” than others, but most will do quite fine in another family. Part of the care you do provide is social stimulation, not just food. Bottom line, their so called love is not unconditional. Your love is not unconditional either - let him bite your child and tell me how much you still love your dog. We love our pets, this is understandable, but the arguments and emotions in their defense are hardly rational.[/quote]

This is a good point. Still when this guy goes to trial I don’t see this as something that will work in his favor.

161