Judaism Vs Christianity Debate

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]weby wrote:

[Silly Youtube Clip]

Wow. So much to be learned from this.

Like, say, how to post a meaningless video.[/quote]

Well, that and there are drunk assholes in every country, including Israel.

But there are certainly hard feelings among many Jewish people regarding some elements of Christian civilization. The World Counsel of Churches (liberal Methodists and non-Missouri Synod Lutherans and others) basically tells Jews to “go die already” on a regular basis.

There has been 1900 years of pogroms, forced conversions, kidnapping of children, expulsions, ghettos, and routine attempts at genocide.

Obviously, such treatment creates hard feelings.

22

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
<<< Despite their bad rap in the media, American Christians, in particular Christian fundamentalists, <<<>>> truly love HaShem, the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, with their whole hearts – and put that love into action. >>>[/quote]I’m certain there is plenty we would disagree on, but it’s interesting that you recognize this. [/quote]

It’s not really notable. Few serious Jewish people doubt the sincerity of fundamentalist Christians.

The non-stop proselytizing, while taken as well-meaning, however, is annoying.

Jews don’t push their religion on anyone. Similiar respect would be polite.

23

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
<<< Despite their bad rap in the media, American Christians, in particular Christian fundamentalists, <<<>>> truly love HaShem, the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, with their whole hearts – and put that love into action. >>>[/quote]I’m certain there is plenty we would disagree on, but it’s interesting that you recognize this. [/quote]

It’s not really notable. Few serious Jewish people doubt the sincerity of fundamentalist Christians.

The non-stop proselytizing, while taken as well-meaning, however, is annoying.

Jews don’t push their religion on anyone. Similiar respect would be polite.[/quote]We would view that to be a most grievous disobedience to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who we love with our whole heart =] 1st Corinthians 1:23-24 [quote]23-but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God [/quote]We don’t try to be offensive but Christ just is and we would rather offend men than displease our Lord and Savior. Romans 9:30-33 (caps are a quote from Isaiah 28) [quote]30-What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31-but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32-Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33-just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” [/quote] BTW, your friendship with my country does not go unnoticed.

24

Again, no one doubts your sincerity or motives. It’s just annoying to be sitting on an airplane or at a car dealership or bench pressing and someone comes and singles you out for conversion attempts.

Sorry, the pogroms, expulsions, work camps, and slamming into gas chambers of my family members didn’t work, either. Still Jewish.

25

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Again, no one doubts your sincerity or motives. It’s just annoying to be sitting on an airplane or at a car dealership or bench pressing and someone comes and singles you out for conversion attempts.

Sorry, the pogroms, expulsions, work camps, and slamming into gas chambers of my family members didn’t work, either. Still Jewish.[/quote]I’m gathering you appear distinctively Jewish in some manner. Not knowing the specific instances you relate I will say however that there is such a thing as a self centered, unwisely offensive and God dishonoring attempt at “sharing the gospel”. God wants us primarily to be a living testimony in how we conduct our lives before the world so that our preaching will have pre-observed credibility to any He may be preparing.

For the record I am neither a mindless ally nor a bigoted critic of modern Israel or Jewish people. A yamaka or payos would not make you any more an object of my evangelistic enthusiasm than anybody else.
Galatians 3 >>> (caps = OT quotes as per NASB translators) [quote] 6-Even so Abraham “BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS”. 7-Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8-The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9-So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. <<<<>>>> 28-There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29-And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. [/quote] I also would not, (usually) interrupt someone in the middle of a clearly inopportune moment. God opens His doors, but He does also call us to kick some down on occasion. A person immersed in His word and prayer will know the difference

26

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
<<< Despite their bad rap in the media, American Christians, in particular Christian fundamentalists, <<<>>> truly love HaShem, the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, with their whole hearts – and put that love into action. >>>[/quote]I’m certain there is plenty we would disagree on, but it’s interesting that you recognize this. [/quote]

It’s not really notable. Few serious Jewish people doubt the sincerity of fundamentalist Christians.

The non-stop proselytizing, while taken as well-meaning, however, is annoying.

Jews don’t push their religion on anyone. Similiar respect would be polite.[/quote]

I always say actions speak louder than words. Proselytizing is fine, but not the way which evangelicals have formed it. It is easier to have it in balance in the Catholic Church has we usually let the Priest actually do the speaking on behalf of the congregation, and we do our part when asked (I get asked a lot), but mostly try to be joyful folks.

27

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Again, no one doubts your sincerity or motives. It’s just annoying to be sitting on an airplane or at a car dealership or bench pressing and someone comes and singles you out for conversion attempts.

Sorry, the pogroms, expulsions, work camps, and slamming into gas chambers of my family members didn’t work, either. Still Jewish.[/quote]

Word…

28

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Again, no one doubts your sincerity or motives. It’s just annoying to be sitting on an airplane or at a car dealership or bench pressing and someone comes and singles you out for conversion attempts.

Sorry, the pogroms, expulsions, work camps, and slamming into gas chambers of my family members didn’t work, either. Still Jewish.[/quote]

Word…[/quote]

In follow up, I really respect and appreciate American Christieans. Without them (and G-d), I would be dead. I take that back. My parents would be dead, and I would not have existed.

My dad tells me about the time Nixon (yes, Nixon, he was a weird duck, but way better than people think), during the Yom Kippur War in 1973, did a massive round up of American National Guard Equipment — planes, tanks, missles, rocket, ammo, whatever, and got it to Israel at light speed.

Not only did it come in the nick of time, my dad related how his jet had hand written notes in it from the last National Guard pilot explaining the peculiarties of that particular plane.

One tank, from somewhere in Mississippi, had, handwritten, the entire passage of Genesis regarding G-d’s promise to Abraham inside its engine compartment. Perfect handwritten script.

That lone tank blocked a pass in the Golan and stopped an entire battalion of Syrian tanks, by the way. Saved many, many lives. It’s in a museaum.

I am a grown man and tear up thinking about that kind of faith from strangers, not even from my tribe.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding the less helpful relations between Christianity and the Jewish people, I remind my friends that this change of Christianity, while welcome, is relatively new.

Literally the past 1900 years have been non-stop killing, kidnapping, expulsions, etc. The Shoa in WWII was just the latest chapter.

That 1900 years of Christian Love is a pretty hard thing to trust.

29

[quote]CubanMeat32 wrote:
I am a Christian and I consider Jews to be my spiritual brothers. I feel that what i believe is correct, however, I, like many other Christians believe, think that the Jews will judged differently come judgment day (remember i am speaking from Christian perspective).

I believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus, but, the Jews throughout history have had attempts on them to be exterminated off the face of this earth, and they are still here, Jews have survived more than one Holocaust, this is something I cannot ignore, I feel that there is divine intervention there.

I am curious as to how Jews view Messianic Jews, for those of you not familiar with what a Messianic Jew is, in a nutshell it is basically a Christian who still follows old testament law, they have formed groups, i believe the most famous one is called “Jews for Jesus”.

I found this theology very interesting, the blending of both.[/quote]

Messianic Judaism — really Christainity stripped of pagan traditions it picked up in Rome and Europe — is a touchy subject in Israel.

And there are two groups to talk about — Jewish people who believe the man from Nazarth was the Messiah — and non-Jewish people who have re-adopted the more original form of Christianity before the pagan influences.

Jews-who-practice Messianic Judaism are now welcome to immigrate to Israel. They are not an overwhlemingly popular or numerous group, as most Orthodox would consider them heretics. But the secular government, quite correctly, considers them Jewish for the purposes of aliyah (immigration). But, yes, religiously they would be deemed heretics by most religious Jewish people. Their right to worship as they see fit, however, would be protected under the law of the land.

Non-Jews-who-practice Messianic Judaism would not be entitled to make aliyah, as they are not Jewish under secular laws.

Religiously, Orthodox Jews wouldn’t have a problem with them, as they would not be Jewish — unless they try to pass themselves off as Jewish, which (allegedly) the Jews-for-Jesus bunch does.

There are a lot Russian immigrants to Israel who are able to immigrate because they have a grandparent who was Jewish, but who are not Jewish under Jewish law. They have increasingly turned to Messianic Judiasm, and, again, assuming they are not Jewish under Jewish law, there is no problem with that.

++++++++++++++

For those that do not know, to be Jewish under Jewish law, you have to convert or your mother has to be Jewish. Dad does not matter.

To immigrate under Israel secular law, all you need is to convert or have one Jewish grandparent — the test Hitler used for death.

30

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]CubanMeat32 wrote:
I am a Christian and I consider Jews to be my spiritual brothers. I feel that what i believe is correct, however, I, like many other Christians believe, think that the Jews will judged differently come judgment day (remember i am speaking from Christian perspective).

I believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus, but, the Jews throughout history have had attempts on them to be exterminated off the face of this earth, and they are still here, Jews have survived more than one Holocaust, this is something I cannot ignore, I feel that there is divine intervention there.

I am curious as to how Jews view Messianic Jews, for those of you not familiar with what a Messianic Jew is, in a nutshell it is basically a Christian who still follows old testament law, they have formed groups, i believe the most famous one is called “Jews for Jesus”.

I found this theology very interesting, the blending of both.[/quote]

Messianic Judaism — really Christainity stripped of pagan traditions it picked up in Rome and Europe — is a touchy subject in Israel.

And there are two groups to talk about — Jewish people who believe the man from Nazarth was the Messiah — and non-Jewish people who have re-adopted the more original form of Christianity before the pagan influences.

Jews-who-practice Messianic Judaism are now welcome to immigrate to Israel. They are not an overwhlemingly popular or numerous group, as most Orthodox would consider them heretics. But the secular government, quite correctly, considers them Jewish for the purposes of aliyah (immigration). But, yes, religiously they would be deemed heretics by most religious Jewish people. Their right to worship as they see fit, however, would be protected under the law of the land.

Non-Jews-who-practice Messianic Judaism would not be entitled to make aliyah, as they are not Jewish under secular laws.

Religiously, Orthodox Jews wouldn’t have a problem with them, as they would not be Jewish — unless they try to pass themselves off as Jewish, which (allegedly) the Jews-for-Jesus bunch does.

There are a lot Russian immigrants to Israel who are able to immigrate because they have a grandparent who was Jewish, but who are not Jewish under Jewish law. They have increasingly turned to Messianic Judiasm, and, again, assuming they are not Jewish under Jewish law, there is no problem with that.

++++++++++++++

For those that do not know, to be Jewish under Jewish law, you have to convert or your mother has to be Jewish. Dad does not matter.

To immigrate under Israel secular law, all you need is to convert or have one Jewish grandparent — the test Hitler used for death.[/quote]

Interesting…side note. I always liked the Shalom at the end of the conversation, always wondered how it came about.

More interesting, I have always been in the habit of answering the phone “Hail” with the waiting for someone to say “Mary,” the other day I answered the phone and it was a local friend of mine that happens to be a Rabbi, and he answered “Mary.” I think I’m getting to him.

31

The Old Testament was action packed… The New Testament is more like Ben Stiller in an action movie: I cant wait for the next Testament!

32

[quote]JesseS wrote:
The Old Testament was action packed… The New Testament is more like Ben Stiller in an action movie: I cant wait for the next Testament! [/quote]

…the Old Testament covered four thousand years…the New Testament covered three years specifically and about 90-120 years total…It’s more like comparing all of the Die Hards and Lethal Weapons and all of the action films from the 80’s to an episode of 24. Yeah, a lot less stuff gets blown up and a lot less terrorist get killed, but that’s still 100’s of hours compared to 47 minutes of action.

Plus, a man claims he is God. And, was tortured. And, was killed. And, rose from the dead. And, appeared to 500 people. And, a man commits suicide. And, a Christian killer becomes a Christian. And, a bunch of babies are slaughtered. And, people are martyred. And, people are healed. And, an earthquake. And, two dudes walk on water. And, a land lover calms the seas and the minds of fisherman. And, Moses and Elijah come back. And, parties with prostitutes and tax collectors.

You’re right, it’s like Ben Stein.

33

judaism is a lie, Christianity is not.

34

[quote]CubanMeat32 wrote:
I am a Christian and I consider Jews to be my spiritual brothers. I feel that what i believe is correct, however, I, like many other Christians believe, think that the Jews will judged differently come judgment day (remember i am speaking from Christian perspective).

I believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus, but, the Jews throughout history have had attempts on them to be exterminated off the face of this earth, and they are still here, Jews have survived more than one Holocaust, this is something I cannot ignore, I feel that there is divine intervention there.

I am curious as to how Jews view Messianic Jews, for those of you not familiar with what a Messianic Jew is, in a nutshell it is basically a Christian who still follows old testament law, they have formed groups, i believe the most famous one is called “Jews for Jesus”.

I found this theology very interesting, the blending of both.[/quote]

The Jews I know - myself included - would say Jesus was not the messiah, but if youre good people then we can be neighbors and perhaps do business :slight_smile: Point being that we dont think about it…

A couple points about what I was taught in Hebrew school and in Israel growing up:

The Jews are not the chosen people; we are the people that chose to accept Gods law after all others chose not to. God came to us only after all others refused, and after our lawyers looked things over we agreed.

The Messiah was(is?) going to be another King David - one who would unite our people and take us back to the holy land… a king of kings.

There is no heaven or hell, only Gods laws that - when followed - will lead to a better life. “Mitvahs” or good deeds are like leaves on a tree: the more you do them the more your life will bear fruit.

Never pay retail.

35

[quote]weby wrote:
judaism is a lie, Christianity is not.[/quote]

I don’t get this shit? If Judaism is a lie, then it was always a lie, that means Jesus was part of a lie, and so where the presbyters, which means Christianity is a lie.

36

[quote]JesseS wrote:
Never pay retail.
[/quote]

Well…at least I got something out of the post. :wink:

37

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]weby wrote:
judaism is a lie, Christianity is not.[/quote]

I don’t get this shit? If Judaism is a lie, then it was always a lie, that means Jesus was part of a lie, and so where the presbyters, which means Christianity is a lie.[/quote]

The irrational hatred of weby and other little folk like him are very good evidence that Judaism is true, as the hatred fulfils the 3000+ year old prophecies of silly, irrational, hatred.

He’s also funny and cute in a yipping Chiwawa sort of way. Glad he’s here.

38

[quote]weby wrote:
judaism is a lie, Christianity is not.[/quote]

If Judaism is a lie, wouldn’t that make Christianity a lie?

39

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]weby wrote:

[Silly Youtube Clip]

Wow. So much to be learned from this.

Like, say, how to post a meaningless video.[/quote]

Well, that and there are drunk assholes in every country, including Israel.

But there are certainly hard feelings among many Jewish people regarding some elements of Christian civilization. The World Counsel of Churches (liberal Methodists and non-Missouri Synod Lutherans and others) basically tells Jews to “go die already” on a regular basis.

There has been 1900 years of pogroms, forced conversions, kidnapping of children, expulsions, ghettos, and routine attempts at genocide.

Obviously, such treatment creates hard feelings.[/quote]
If you knew a person who was fired from every job he took, kicked out of all clubs he went and generally shunned then do you think that guy would be entirely innocent and all the other people wrong? Is there a remote possibility that it might be more complicated?

Even when jews don’t really practice any religion, they still call themselves jews, meaning that they identify strongly as a race, regardless of where they are. Thus, their interests as a race may well overcome their loyalty to any nation they inhabit, for example, and cause consequent disdain.

There is, of course, the argument which goes that jews have been persecuted because they are so succesful and brilliant. If it is any judge, the average IQ of Israel is significantly lower than that of USA and many european nations. Even when studying jews in exclusion, the differences (going by the most glamorous stats presented for jews) are not that great, and there are just not that many jews in the world.

As such, if it’s all about petty jealousy, why are not people mad about italians, japanese, germans and other large nationalities or just plain artificial cliques of connected folks (similar to how jews identify by name and tradition) who could, for all reasonable purposes, wield just as much influence?

40

[quote]Alffi wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]weby wrote:

[Silly Youtube Clip]

Wow. So much to be learned from this.

Like, say, how to post a meaningless video.[/quote]

Well, that and there are drunk assholes in every country, including Israel.

But there are certainly hard feelings among many Jewish people regarding some elements of Christian civilization. The World Counsel of Churches (liberal Methodists and non-Missouri Synod Lutherans and others) basically tells Jews to “go die already” on a regular basis.

There has been 1900 years of pogroms, forced conversions, kidnapping of children, expulsions, ghettos, and routine attempts at genocide.

Obviously, such treatment creates hard feelings.[/quote]
If you knew a person who was fired from every job he took, kicked out of all clubs he went and generally shunned then do you think that guy would be entirely innocent and all the other people wrong? Is there a remote possibility that it might be more complicated?

Even when jews don’t really practice any religion, they still call themselves jews, meaning that they identify strongly as a race, regardless of where they are. Thus, their interests as a race may well overcome their loyalty to any nation they inhabit, for example, and cause consequent disdain.

There is, of course, the argument which goes that jews have been persecuted because they are so succesful and brilliant. If it is any judge, the average IQ of Israel is significantly lower than that of USA and many european nations. Even when studying jews in exclusion, the differences (going by the most glamorous stats presented for jews) are not that great, and there are just not that many jews in the world.

As such, if it’s all about petty jealousy, why are not people mad about italians, japanese, germans and other large nationalities or just plain artificial cliques of connected folks (similar to how jews identify by name and tradition) who could, for all reasonable purposes, wield just as much influence?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right, we deserve it. ROFLMAO. Idiocy like this almost makes me happy that Europe will be part of the Calphate in a generate. Enjoy Sharia.

For the reocrd, the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is one standard deviation above the average European. The best evidence of this is your post.