Journey Towards a Better Me

Pharma TRT
81

Just wanted to report that after about a month of running 80mg E3.5D of test I went back up to 100mg. I was just experiencing too much brain fog and just felt horrible, I thought to see if needed to suffer through, if my body just needed time to adjust to the differences in hormones, but I had a really big deadline in work coming up and I could not afford being tired and distracted all the time.

Honestly I don’t think I will go back down to 80 until after this next round of labs, and this time I will get the labs pulled on a trough instead of right after pinning.

82

just posting here to bitch. Over three weeks ago I had labs drawn, and the results still have not come back yet. I’m very anxious to see if my test levels are as high as they were last time, as this will really provide some good information as to how my body handles the current protocol.

Secondly, my dad is now trying out trt, and his doc is willing to learn, but is incredibly ignorant. For example, he put dad on 50mg of test C a week, which hasn’t alleviated any real symptoms (gets dad up to 700 TT on a peak day). Also, the doctor hasn’t checked e2 at all the whole time. I’m showing Dad this forum and trying to help him out, and the doctor is being responsive (is totally fine with going 100mg/wk). But damn, it is sad when the doctor needs to learn from the patient.

83

Alright, finally got my labs, am concerned about my lipoproteins, but I have no idea what they mean or how to correct it:

Lipids:

Total Cholesterol 203, MODERATE (200-239)
LDL-C 143, MODERATE (100-159)
HDL-C 47, OPTIMAL (>=40)
Triglycarides 63, OPTIMAL (<150)
Total Cholesterol/ HDL-C Ratio 4.3, MODERATE (3-5)
TG/HDL-C (Ratio) 1, OPTIMAL (<4)

Lipoprotein:

Apa B: ApaA-1 (Ratio) 1.04, AT RISK (>=.81)
Apa B 110, AT RISK (>=80)
Apa A-1 106, AT RISK (<114)
Lp(A) Mass 80, AT RISK (>=30)

Insulin 1.9, OPTIMAL (<-12.4)
C-peptide .8, OPTIMAL (.8-3.9)
Glucose 73, OPTIMAL (65-100)
Hemaglobin A1c (HbA1c) (%) 5.2, OPTIMAL (<=5.6)
Est. Avg. Glucose 103, OPTIMAL (<=116.8)

eGFR non-African American 75, MODERATE (60-89)
BUN 15, OPTIMAL (/=25)
Creatine 1.1, OPTIMAL (.7-1.3)

Electrolytes:

Sodium 139, (133-146)
Potassium 4.2, (3.5-5.1)
Chloride 103 ,(98-107)
Carbon Dioxide 25, (21-31)
Magnesium 1.90 (1.9-2.7)
Phosphorus 3.3, (2.5-5.0)

Liver:

Total protein 6.9, (6.0-8.3)
Albumin 4.5, (4.2-5.5)
Total Bilirubin .4, (.3-1.0)
Direct Bilirubin .08, (.03-.18)
AST/GOT 48, AT RISK (13-39)
ALT/GPT 28, (7-52)
Alkaline Phosphatase (ALP) 77, (34-104)

Other:

Uric Acid 6.3, OPTIMAL (4.4-7.6)
Cortisol 7, (3.1-22.4)
Vit-D 22, MODERATE RISK (20-29)
Amylase 34, (29-103)
Calcium 9.4, (8.6-10.3)
Vit B12 334, (180-914)
Ferritin 27, (16-243)
WBC 6.26, (4.23-9.07)
RBC 5.02, (4.63-6.08)
Hemoglobin 15.3, (13.7-17.5)
Hematocrit 47.2 (40.1-51.0)
MCV 94, AT RISK, (79-92.2)
MCH 30.5, (25.7-32.2)
MCHC 32.4, (32.3-36.5)
RDW 13.1, (11.6-14.4)
Platelet Count 250, (163-337)
Nautrophil 49.6, (34.0-67.9)
Lymphocyte 39.1 (21.8-53.1)
Manocyla 7.3, (5.3-12.2)
Eosinophil 2.4, (.8-7.0)
Basaphil 1.8, AT RISK, (.2-1.2)
Immature Granulocytes 0.3, (0.0-.4)
Nucleated RBC 0.0, (0.0-.2)
Neatrophil Count 3.10, (1.78-5.38)
Lymphocyte Count 2.45, (1.32-3.57)
monacyle Count .46, (.30 - 0.82)
Eosinephil Count .15, (.04-.54)
Basaphil count .08, (0.01 - 0.08)
Immature Granulacytes count .02 (0.0 - 0.03)
Nucleated RBC Count 0.00, (0.00 - 0.01)

Thyroid:

TSH .74, (.35-5.5)
T4 8.1, (6.1-12.2)
T3 Free 2.8, (2.3-4.2)
HGH <0.1, (<3)
T uptake 48, (32-48.4)

Sex Hormones:

DHEAS 386 (106-464)
SHBG 12.6 (13.3-89)
LH .3 (1.5-9.3)
Prolactin 8.4 (2.1-17.7)
Progesterone .59 (.14-2.06)
Estradiol 25 (<47)
Test, Total 1013 (241-827)
Test, Free 29.8 (4.0-19.0)
PSA .84, (<4.00)

84

Labs look fantastic!
The lipoproteins are markers of cardiovascular disease and measure the quality of the LDL and HDL particles. You can’t simply look at the individual HDL/LDL values or ratio to determine CVD risk - that’s a 30 year old methodology. Modern docs use Apo A/B and other tests to determine this. So, you have high LDL with bad lipoprotein values - this tells me you should run a low dose statin. It will not give you muscle aches or lower your Test if at a low dose (e.g. 10 mg of Lipitor) but will greatly reduce your risk of a cardiovascular event when you are older. Go see a cardiologist.

85

Do you mean that the labs are fantastic because they are so extensive, or are they fantastic because of the actual results? I’m pretty concerned about my apo a/b levels, and I don’t want to take statins if I can help it so I’m going to try changing my protocol and see if that helps.

Test is still high, so I will try going back to down 80mg of test e3.5d. Last time I did this I experienced what I thought were low test symptoms (brain fog, etc.), but perhaps it was low e2 since I was still taking an AI. The thought process now is to try the lower dose of test without an AI.

I am also going to try taking some niacin, as my online searching has shown niacin to help with lipid levels.

86

I was focusing on your test levels – which are very healthy – I would not bother lowering at all unless you’re feeling side effects. I just noticed that one of your your liver values is high - are you taking anything else? This isn’t normal for an Rx-grade non-methylated androgen IikenTest.

Also, as noted you have a greater risk of cardiovascular disease due to your LDL and other lipoprotein values – I would seek an opinion by a cardiologist. This does not present an issue now – but believe me – you want to stay ahead of this – otherwise you may be looking at some calcification when you were in your 40s or 50s

87

From what I’ve read elevated test can adversely affect lipids, so isn’t that a side effect? If you look above both KSman and another agree that I should lower my test, if only to see how I feel with lower test and without an AI. I think it’s worth a shot. See what I did there?

As I’m almost 37 I think I really need to be concerned with this.

88

I am taking .25mg of adex EOD and HCG, but that’s it. I am concerned about that value as well, not sure what to do about it.

89

Elevated AST values are less liver specific - and tend to be related to abnormal red blood counts (not you) kidney issues (not you looking at your labs) - cardiac muscle damage (doubtful or you would have other sides) or skeletal muscle damage (which would have arose from hard workouts or over training). I would get labs again and make sure you don’t drink or workout for a few days prior to the test. I’ll bet the values will come down.

90

You could try that - but the elevated lipids normally come from supraphisiological doses - you are the upper end or normal and I don’t think lowering a few hundred NG/DL would do much - besides, didn’t you feel badly on lower T?

Also the APO-A/B lipoproteins are more genetic markers of CVD risk - I honestly do not know the effect of Testosterone on these values. I would check with a cardiologist if it were me (and realize that he or she might recommend a statin)

91

I have been hitting it pretty hard in the gym and on the track, perhaps this is the issue. I also may have had a finger of whiskey the night before, though I really don’t remember.

I felt bad when I lowered the test and kept the AI. A friend pointed out that this may have come from having low e2, so I’m going to try lowering the test and dropping the ai. Best outcome is that I no longer need an AI, worst outcome is I go back to my old protocol.

Sad that this may just be genetic. No one in my family has had CVD issues at all, so that means I’m just extra lucky I guess. I’m going to see my trt doc first to discuss this stuff (need a referral anyway to see a specialist) and will also add in niacin as I’ve read that can help with numbers. If that doesn’t work then will move on to the cardiologist and possible statins. I just want to try more conservative treatments first, but I’m willing to admit that it may come down to taking statins.

92

Ok so reviving this thread as I’m now going to try a new protocol. To bring everyone up to speed, I’ve did 200mg/wk with HCG and .25mg of adex EoD for like 4 years. Then I finally decided to reduce the test, and am currently taking 160mg of test a week, while maintaining the HCG/Adex dosage. This has brought my test/e2 levels into middle of the range, like 650/25. I’m about to have labs done next week to check again. My LDL levels are not great, so I’m thinking an even lower does of test without an AI may be better for me in that respect.

But my main interest in trying something different is that I’ve been feeling… alright with the current protocol. Better than when I was taking 200, but I still feel… not quite right. Broscience (and maybe real science) seems to think that constant, elevated test levels will fuck with your dopamine system, and my dopamine system definite feels fucked with a bit. Plus I would like to find a test dosage that doesn’t require adex. …I’m mentally prepared to go as low as 100mg a week of test. But I would also like to try a different approach to the test dosage: Testosterone Propionate.

I have low SHBG (usually single digits), even when natty and lifting/low sugar/IF. And some ppl with low SHBG have reported feeling much better on test p than what I’m currently on, Testosterone Cypionate. Test P more closely mimics the natural rhythms of the body, and doesn’t aromatize as much. I’ve talked to my dr about this and we’re going to try test P starting next week. I guess I’m going to do my last pin of test c tomorrow (Saturday) and once Wednesday comes around I’ll pin test p instead of test c.

Using steroid plot one can see this will cause a boost then a drop, but I’m ok with that. The protocol I’m going to try out will be 15mg of test p ED (for a total of 105 mg/wk), while taking the HCG EoD, with no AI. I’ll be pinning at night and will be trying to do it with slin pins subq. Because IM injections of that small a dose is stoopid.

I’m hoping this doesn’t adversely affect my athletic performance too much, but I’m trying to mentally prepare myself to become even slower and weaker than I currently am. …Am thinking of adding 25mg of proviron in the morning to help combat this, but first lets see where this just-testp protocol takes me.

Honestly I’m really excited to see how this goes.

1 Like
93

Just curious, have you tried no AI before? I haven’t read the rest of your thread yet.

94

IIRC I started out with no AI, but 200mg/wk put my e2 in the 70s (and I felt it). There was another time, I think a few years ago, I dropped tried 160mg/wk with no AI, and my e2 was in the 50s I think? It was high whatever the case. So yeah I’m now at a point in my life, with not able to hit the gym with a baby and COVID, where I’m ok with my strength/physique slipping and have mentally accepted starting at 140mg/wk and going down to 105mg/wk if it means no AI, if nothing else than to simply know.

Had labs done today as a baseline for what my previous protocol had me at, and hopefully the test P arrives in the mail today so I can start the new protocol tonight. Going to try 20mg ED with no AI and 150 IU HCG EoD. If I start to see the bloating and lethargy I’ll drop down to 15mg ED.

95

You posted numbers. My E2 is typically in the low 60’s, and doesn’t bother anything. What is the problem with 50’s? Not discussing lab ranges, what negative symptoms are you dealing with at that dose of Test? As a side note, you are unlikely to like test prop, and it is not necessary to use it for daily dosing.

1 Like
96

when my E2 was high I experienced lethargy, lots of bloating (like I couldn’t put on my wedding band), pretty bad acne on my torso, real soft erections. I may also be missing a few other symptoms, it’s been a while, but those were the main symptoms.

Some people with low SHBG report feeling better on test prop feel better, I figure it’s worth a shot.

…see what I did there?

97

I get the switch to daily dosing, it is great for plenty of guys, I just think you may find that you don’t like test prop for it. It’s all about controlling the peaks and troughs with daily, and Prop kind of undoes some of that. And, it is noted for causing burning.

98

If by this you mean one should aim to have stable, kind of constant levels of test then I should let you know that my goal is to go the opposite direction: to have peaks and troughs.

It isn’t natural for the human body to sustain high t levels while awake and asleep. Test p allows your levels to slightly crash and give your body a break that mimics circadian rhythm.

Running test c/e is like revving your dodge chargers engine all day & night. It will keep your levels at say for example 1000-1300 (random number) only to lower to 800-900 by next injection day(great for muscle terrible for sides), constant high t levels have also been shown to cause damage to the dopamine system, and as I said earlier it does feel like my dopamine system has been fucked with. Test p will allow you to peak at day 1100-1300 for like 12 hours, then slowly go down to say 600-800 to give your body a much needed break (again, numbers pulled out of my ass).

There’s a reason our bodies naturally have high t in the morning, low t be nighttime (so we can get good sleep). We don’t need to hunt saber tooth tigers in our sleep, so high t levels at night may affect more processes in the brain and body at night than we think. We don’t really know, but I am comfortable with the idea of trying this out.

If it’s a huge failure then no biggie, just go back to my old protocol. If it’s a success: well, I figure my approach is very unorthodox and thus makes my experience worth sharing with this forum/world. Perhaps someone else will learn something from my experience, good or bad.

I am two pins of test p in, and I’ve felt a VERY slight pip, but I have to really focus in on it to notice it. I am pinning 20mg in a slin pin subq. Have had much stronger morning wood so far, and I’m much more tired at night (this is a good thing). I’ll get labs in a few weeks and see how that looks, and interested in my e2 levels mostly, as I’ve dropped the AI completely.

99

If that is the goal, then party on. I’m not opposed at all. When guys go daily it’s typically to get rid of the ups and downs, which is why I mentioned it. Personally, I like the wave pattern of weekly, and possibly would like the way prop works. But Prop isn’t easy for me to get, and weekly works nice. I am interested to know how it comes out for you, and that PIP is the main drawback in my eyes. It’s not uncommon, and from what I hear can really suck. Just to be clear, I’m not pushing flat levels, I don’t like them, just a warning in case that was the goal.

100

Gotcha, appreciate it. Yeah I realized I hadn’t clearly spelled out my goals and reasoning in trying Test P, so I’m glad I got to put it on the record for others to see.

Perhaps the pip is so low because it’s legal test prop, made by a compounding pharmacy? I imagine they would have a recipe that would minimize pip. Also may be that I’m just not pinning that much? or it’s subq? Maybe I’m just lucky with how my body responds. …Feels like that would be the first time I’ve been lucky with any of this.

I’m thinking of getting labs done after a month of this. According to Steroid Plot that should be long enough for the Test C to clear my system and stabilize on Test P. …The graph also points out that taking 140mg of Test P a week (peaks at 24.1 mg in system) actually gets me to higher test levels than 160mg of test C a week (peaks at 19.76mg in system), due to the shorter ester packing more of a punch. So if I start showing signs of higher e2 like bloating, I’m not going to have any issue lowering the dose to 15mg/ED.

Also thinking of getting ahold of some TNE for preworkout, am really interested in what dumping a whole bunch of test (like 10mg lol) into my system will feel like, hear it creates a sense of euphoria.