I am saying in general. It is usually people with PhD who have done the heavy lifting. Made insights in an area. MD’s then apply those insights clinically.
I was not making any comment on anything you mentioned there.
Well that doesn’t disqualify him either.
No matter how much research he has done?
Haha. Isn’t that how one is awarded a PhD? Novel research in a specific area.
Seems like you may be hung up on titles.
Not saying you are wrong. Just an observation.
You are definitely entitled to feel that way.
What qualifications do you think he needs to have?
Any jabronie could get some certs in nutrition an dietetics. Would that be sufficient?
Or does he need a PhD in nutrition?
Can I ask what is your background?
Are you a nutritionist?
Also. Do you have Phd in qualification assessment? Because if you don’t I don’t think you are qualified to assess Paul Saladino’s qualifications.
Totally, but there hasn’t been any peer review on what Saladino says.
I’m hung up on scope of practice
A degree, or a fellowship that can be verified and/or is relevant, or the support of someone trained in nutrition science, or subject his work to peer review. If his work withstands peer review, I’d be happy.
I’m studying physiotherapy
I’m guessing this is a joke right, because I did legitimately have a chuckle
If Saladino is espousing a nutritional strategy, surely the most qualified individual to discuss would be someone with actual nutrition/dietetics training, like Norton for example.
Yeah. I couldn’t say. Haven’t watched the video. Hahahaha.
Yeah you and everyone else in the medical field.
I can appreciate that. It is important that certain standards/criteria for competence be in place.
But it doesn’t mean he is wrong.
I can’t comment further though without watching the video. I just wanted to point that out.
Like for instance
How is he doing that?
And selling his beliefs? Does he stand to gain financially?
DPT?
Yeah, it was.
I am gonna start watching that video now before I comment further.
Do you understand how a PhD is awarded.
In the usa.
4 years of undergraduate.
Let’s say you jump straight to a PhD program.
You take more or less two years of graduate level course work.
Then you jump into your research project. Where you focus on usually one main hypothesis. Collect data. Interpret date. Write it up. Defend. Awarded PhD.
Essentially it is teaching you how to think scientifically. How to do research.
Being an MD as opposed to an PhD doesn’t necessarily preclude one from being competent enough in realm of nutrition to perhaps do what Paul Saladino is doing. But like I said Ill comment further when I watch the video.
I totally agree with you, and this is one of the big issues I take with Saladino. We just have to “take his word” that he knows how to interpret research and conduct reviews because of his medical degree, and registration with a nutritional board that he won’t identify.
Yes, he has a book, a supplement and apparel line, and I’m willing to bet a number of sponsorships.
Aussie? Calling PT as physio instead of physical is a dead give away. Or your from UK.
Ok but having a PhD means you can “take someones word” on something? Assume that they will interpret research competently?
Honestly, I think that is kinda disparaging towards MD’s. I can assure you that the majority of the people with the aptitude to complete an MD program and a residency are likely capable of interpreting research. Its certainly not far fetched at all.
Part of a doctors education is in being able to practice evidenced based medicine. That means being able to look at the evidence. That means being able to interpret research.
The vast majority of MD curriculums often involve a research project as well.
Still doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Layne Norton does too. I think he claims his products can keep you virus free.
Also, I just want to add for some perspective.
I’ve personally known at least 6 people who had PhD’s prior to matriculating into an MD program. Two in Biotechnology, one in immunology, one in developmental biology, a pharmD and I forget the last one.
Each and every single one of them said it was disgusting how much harder an MD program was compared to their first doctorate.
Hahah yeah, Aussie. I think they might call it physio over in Europe too, but I’m not sure.
It’s kinda funny because here “PT” means personal trainer, so that gets confusing sometimes
That’s actually a great point. My main argument is that having a PhD in nutrition (and I’m not saying Saladino necessarily needs one to validate his claims) at the very least can confirm that he has received the foundational science and evidence around nutrition and public health. MD programs (and I’m certain psychiatry programs) provide very little information in the way of nutrition.
100%. Additionally they’d be just as likely to succumb to biases as someone with a PhD. That’s why I think the second important requirement (or possibly the most important requirement) would be peer-review.
Evidence-based practice isn’t just about having evidence, it’s about using the best available evidence. Considering the fact that the overwhelming majority of medical/nutritional research suggests minimising red meat and saturated fat consumption, it’s hard to say Saladino is evidence-based imo. Sure, he has evidence to back him up, but I don’t believe it’s the highest quality evidence out there.
Very true
Thankfully not. Norton launches his supplement line later this month, and I double checked and happily there were no claims about anti-viral properties.
Yes, but a big part of that is the fact that MD programs involve memorising a whole bunch of stuff, and because practical / clinical education shifts are insane. Just because an MD is hard, doesn’t mean it’s the be all end all of scientific education (as I’m sure you’d agree)
Are you sure about that? Which medical programs did you graduate from?
Mate. You’re switching the argument around.
Follow the conversation. Why did I bring up evidenced base? I am not talking about his use of evidence.
I am qualifying his qualifications based on his training. Based on the fact that you said since he doesn’t have a PhD and there for he is not qualified to review research or something to that effect.
With each remark you shifted a bit on your position. But if you read through all the posts it should make sense.
What? You haven’t heard of Norton’s Anti virus. I don’t know if I trust anything you say now.
I bring it up because. A person who makes it through. If they are so inclined. Could easily becoming competent in whatever areas his/her interest take them. To clarify. Not far fetched to think an MD grad could become an expert in nutrition.
No, not at all. You cannot attribute intellectual superiority to training/qualifications. James Dyson went to art college but invented a vacuum cleaner. Many folks make the crossover… you get the point.
The argument you are trying to make sounds a bit like the grilling Saladino got when he appeared on that “Doctors” show recently.
I am enrolled in the medical program at the University of Queensland. The pathway I got was
High school → High ATAR (like SAT) and high UMAT (like MCAT for high school grads) → Early offer into an MD program, my pick of an undergrad → Currently B.Phty → Commence MD upon graduating
I see where you’re coming from now. My bad. You’re right, my argument was false, but I still maintain that PhDs spend years learning how to appraise research, whilst medical programs might have 1 or 2 courses across the whole 4-5 years.
Nice, totally walked into that one haha
You’re right, but it would still be outside their scope to make the claims Saladino does, especially if he doesn’t have peer review to back him up
I have seen the clip, and I actually agree a decent amount with the presenters but I care more about the fact that Saladino does not have peer review to back up his claims than the fact he has an MD only.
If his information was peer-reviewed, then it’s fine that he’s an MD.
Because he lacks peer review, and is rejecting current medical recommendations, then the fact he lacks objective qualification is troublesome. Add in the fact stands to gain financially and it becomes ethically questionable.
Oh. I am sure you were just itching to drop that. Haha. You certainly seem to have the right attitude for the role.
But the answer to my question would be none though.
Also, Blues all day.
You won’t see me disagreeing with that.
I will comment when I finish watching the video. So far all he is said is that if you eat only animal based you get all your nutrients. But if you eat only plants you don’t.
So 20 minutes into the podcast and he’s not wrong yet and I don’t need peer review to know that.
Well, I haven’t been following this thread, and I have no idea who Paul Saladino is. But at a glance, y’all appear to be discussing issues related to 1) what is appropriate/ethical behavior on the part of a physician, and 2) the relative standings of MD training vs PhD training when it comes to weighing their opinions vis a vis matters of health science. Those are issues about which I can claim to have an informed opinion. So if you’ll recapitulate what it is you’d like me to weigh in upon, I’ll give it a whirl.
Paul Saladino is a psychiatrist and strong proponent of the carnivore diet.
My main qualm with him is that I believe the use of MD as part of his brand (Carnivore MD) is very misleading as a marketing tool, and that Dr Saladino should not be considered an authority given the lack of peer review on his recommendations and lack of explicit qualification in nutrition science. Basically, I feel he’s operating outside his scope whilst using his degree for credibility.
As an MD, is it out of scope for Saladino to make such drastic nutritional recommendations as the carnivore diet, especially in light of current recommendations on red meat and saturated fat intake? Its also worth mentioning that Saladino specifically recommends the carnivore diet to help manage auto-immune amd mental health disorders.
That current guidance published by health authorities regarding red meat and saturated fat is sufficiently accurate to be adhered to by the general populace?
That Saladino should not be challenging (1) due to his lack of qualifications?
Neither of the above? If so, do elaborate please.
As an aside, the carnivore movement championed by Shawn Baker is currently raising funds for a clinical trial to test the diet. While research of this nature may help establish (or challenge) the legitimacy of this diet, there is already enough clinical research out there for people to make up their own minds as to optimal nutritional intake. Saladino has done a good job of highlighting that research.
FYI he does debates and discussions with such authorities regularly and makes that content (with the other side’s counterpoints) widely available to his audience across all his platforms. It’s also important to note that he’s been highly willing to say he was wrong and modify his recommendations. He is not a zealot.
Just as a general note though. For me, appeals to mainstream nutritional research and it’s authority are laughable. The more mainstream nutritional advice Americans have listened to, the fatter and sicker they’ve gotten. This doesn’t validate the likes of the carnivore folks, but your appeals to the authority of mainstream experts is probably falling flat with many people here.
If you don’t mind me asking, what do you think he is wrong about?
So it is your stance that an MD should only be listing on your name when talking about exactly what you specialized in? It seems like some of the guys you mention Mike Israetel, Layne Norton, est. are guilty of that too then at least some times. Israetel shouldn’t discuss nutrition for general health cause he isn’t an authority? Layne isn’t an authority on training and shouldn’t be selling online training marketed as if he were?
Layne Norton had posts where Saladino claims that a Carnivore Diet protected against COVID transmission. Saladino recently posted this thing about how how dangerous vegetables were just by throwing around big works like “oxalates, phytates, saponins, lectins, etc” just to fear monger.
I wouldn’t listen to either Joe Rogan or Saladino for nutrition advice. Joe Rogan also had GSP on the show claiming that he only ate half the week and was gaining muscle because of the magical powers of fasting.
Cult