Job/Education Suggestions?

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201

[quote]carbiduis wrote:
“Cupcake Generation” vs. “dying on your deathbed looking back and wishing you didn’t spend all your time working”

the arguments are getting ridiculous.

More hours don’t always result in more dollars. I could spend 60hrs/wk at my job (twiddling my thumbs most of the time cause there just isn’t enough work right now) and I would still get the same pay if I showed up 5min later everyday and left 5min early and was a complete fuck up.

I would love to work 50-60/wk and get a 10% raise for it, but that opportunity just isn’t there, so I put in 40/wk and get my 3% raise.

What am I to do? (I’m looking for a different job as you may know) Does this make me a cupcake?

And no I don’t agree with the others arguing the liberal side of things, the emotional arguments are BS as always. One needs to be able to survive comfortably and have money for their WANTS beyond their NEEDS.

The answer is somewhere in the middle (for most).
[/quote]

This was a pretty sensible post.

I mean it’s ultimately up to you to choose whatever and accept responsibility for it.

The bigger issue seems to be that expectations are very out of line with reality… and instead of realizing that, adjusting, and learning to work with it… people (and I’m not talking about you specifically) effectively throw a temper tantrum. If you don’t like something, whine about it. If nothing changes or nobody cares, whine louder.

Now, I mean, there’s a few things you’ve said that I take issue with, notably the times that you’ve used the word “deserve”. If you do great work in a shitty job and are underpaid relative to your value (perceived or actual), that doesn’t mean you “deserve” more pay.

If you think you’re worth more than you’re getting paid, looking for a new job isn’t a bad way to find out. But there’s also probably opportunity where you are now, if you just figured out how to create it.

You may want to shift your thinking to become more bottom line focused. Finding ways to make a tangible dent on the company’s bottom line – whether it be increasing revenue or decreasing costs – will usually get you further than just about anything else you could do. If the owner and executive staff know who you are and recognize you’re actually adding that kind of value, that puts you in a pretty good position.

Companies exist to make money. The better you are at helping the company make money, the more valuable you actually are, which you can then leverage to get paid more.

It’s not the end-all, be-all, and there’s politics and a whole bunch of other issues… but it’s a very useful way to look at things.

202

^^ Along with most people making ok money, it depends on perspective of course, in addition to keeping up with inflation, etc. It’s all a moving, and the rate of growth is as important as the actual income. This is the argument behind a lot of the economic inequality stuff, to which I only have a cursory understanding. (and let threadjack into economic inequality argument begin NOW)

I believe the real income of engineers and mathematicians has declined about 3 percent over the past 10-15 years in the US… I don’t think anyone would argue that these people lack skills or demand, it’s just a matter of keeping up with inflation and such, as well as some other macroeconomic, political, and cultural factors; I suspect immigration has had a minor effect on this as well, though, the last study I saw said something along the lines of immigration only decreasing wages of the lowest paid workers (high school dropouts) about 5 percent.

203

Also, it wouldn’t hurt to become a little less conflict-averse in the workplace.

For example, the story you mentioned where you answered some question for the owner while your boss was out of town, and then got chastized for it later. You mentioned what you learned from that was to just keep your mouth shut. I’d reconsider that conclusion.

204

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

I would love to work 50-60/wk and get a 10% raise for it, but that opportunity just isn’t there, so I put in 40/wk and get my 3% raise.

What am I to do? (I’m looking for a different job as you may know) Does this make me a cupcake?

[/quote]

Does that make you a cupcake? Nope. You’re moving forward, trying to improve and generally putting in the effort to both better yourself and the world around you. You’re not looking for the easy way out, you’re not complacent, you’re generally trying. (If you were 50 with kids and had “put in your time” the entire thing takes on a different perspective understand.)

As an aside, I have no idea if you care or not, but I’ve been wanting to say that you have matured a lot IMO since I first noticed you posting here, and I tip my hat to you for it. Whether or not my opinion on the matter means anything to you aside, it is the truth, and I generally see you on a good path in life, from what I can see on the internet. So, good for you.

(God I hope you aren’t killing hookers and plotting the demise of some locality as hobbies and just playing normal dude on the internet, lol)[/quote]

Actually, it does mean something.

So thank you.

205

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
it’s just a matter of keeping up with inflation and such, [/quote]

Which is a massive, massive problem these days, and why shooting for “ok income” from what is assumed as the minimum expect effort so that you can “enjoy” your life because you aren’t at work a single second more than you could possibly bear, is a losing strategy.

Basic economics dictate that the current Fed policy and government actions (in the US) are going to lead to hyper-inflation. (why it isn’t yet/that it isn’t/that we are in a significant deflationary period is up for debate) So either hundreds of years of accepted economic theory is wrong, or a lot of people are going to be hurting soon. Which means the government will have to step in, and that means more money. Which means higher taxes and more debt, both economic drags.

People in their 40’s and 50’s have different options and can take different paths. I would say anyone in their 20’s that is “settling” for lessor money to “enjoy life” right now is setting themselves up for some serious pain. Efforts to make as much as you can right now, and living in a reasonable manner cannot be stressed enough.

But whatever, people insist I’m an asshole (I am) and hate my life (I don’t) so what do I know.

206

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:
“Cupcake Generation” vs. “dying on your deathbed looking back and wishing you didn’t spend all your time working”

the arguments are getting ridiculous.

More hours don’t always result in more dollars. I could spend 60hrs/wk at my job (twiddling my thumbs most of the time cause there just isn’t enough work right now) and I would still get the same pay if I showed up 5min later everyday and left 5min early and was a complete fuck up.

I would love to work 50-60/wk and get a 10% raise for it, but that opportunity just isn’t there, so I put in 40/wk and get my 3% raise.

What am I to do? (I’m looking for a different job as you may know) Does this make me a cupcake?

And no I don’t agree with the others arguing the liberal side of things, the emotional arguments are BS as always. One needs to be able to survive comfortably and have money for their WANTS beyond their NEEDS.

The answer is somewhere in the middle (for most).
[/quote]

This was a pretty sensible post.

I mean it’s ultimately up to you to choose whatever and accept responsibility for it.

The bigger issue seems to be that expectations are very out of line with reality… and instead of realizing that, adjusting, and learning to work with it… people (and I’m not talking about you specifically) effectively throw a temper tantrum. If you don’t like something, whine about it. If nothing changes or nobody cares, whine louder.

Now, I mean, there’s a few things you’ve said that I take issue with, notably the times that you’ve used the word “deserve”. If you do great work in a shitty job and are underpaid relative to your value (perceived or actual), that doesn’t mean you “deserve” more pay.

If you think you’re worth more than you’re getting paid, looking for a new job isn’t a bad way to find out. But there’s also probably opportunity where you are now, if you just figured out how to create it.

You may want to shift your thinking to become more bottom line focused. Finding ways to make a tangible dent on the company’s bottom line – whether it be increasing revenue or decreasing costs – will usually get you further than just about anything else you could do. If the owner and executive staff know who you are and recognize you’re actually adding that kind of value, that puts you in a pretty good position.

Companies exist to make money. The better you are at helping the company make money, the more valuable you actually are, which you can then leverage to get paid more.

It’s not the end-all, be-all, and there’s politics and a whole bunch of other issues… but it’s a very useful way to look at things.

[/quote]

YES.

three days ago I started with an Excel Sheet to compare the cost of a project by the time it ships vs. what we are charging our customers. I was unable to finish because our equipment catalog doesn’t have the cost for all equipment! only like 40% and they are even updated prices!!

Also we don’t even budget in our CAD/Engineering hours when we sell a system!

I did this after reminding myself of hearing how “The money just isn’t there” for a decent raise.

What to do mannnn.

207

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
it’s just a matter of keeping up with inflation and such, [/quote]

Which is a massive, massive problem these days, and why shooting for “ok income” from what is assumed as the minimum expect effort so that you can “enjoy” your life because you aren’t at work a single second more than you could possibly bear, is a losing strategy.

Basic economics dictate that the current Fed policy and government actions (in the US) are going to lead to hyper-inflation. (why it isn’t yet/that it isn’t/that we are in a significant deflationary period is up for debate) So either hundreds of years of accepted economic theory is wrong, or a lot of people are going to be hurting soon. Which means the government will have to step in, and that means more money. Which means higher taxes and more debt, both economic drags.

People in their 40’s and 50’s have different options and can take different paths. I would say anyone in their 20’s that is “settling” for lessor money to “enjoy life” right now is setting themselves up for some serious pain. Efforts to make as much as you can right now, and living in a reasonable manner cannot be stressed enough.

But whatever, people insist I’m an asshole (I am) and hate my life (I don’t) so what do I know. [/quote]

Damn right!

208

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Also, it wouldn’t hurt to become a little less conflict-averse in the workplace.

For example, the story you mentioned where you answered some question for the owner while your boss was out of town, and then got chastized for it later. You mentioned what you learned from that was to just keep your mouth shut. I’d reconsider that conclusion.[/quote]

I’ll ask you to spell it out for me. I’d have little to gain by opening my mouth anymore.

Again, it’s a small/tight company with a control freak of an owner who doesn’t exactly appreciate “new ideas” etc. we are stuck in the stone age as a company.

After that happened my boss sat me down and basically said “next time, just nod and say yes” and not to stir the pot etc. he went on to say “it’s my (my bosses) job to insulate you from having to talk directly to the owner”

209

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Also, it wouldn’t hurt to become a little less conflict-averse in the workplace.

For example, the story you mentioned where you answered some question for the owner while your boss was out of town, and then got chastized for it later. You mentioned what you learned from that was to just keep your mouth shut. I’d reconsider that conclusion.[/quote]

I’ll ask you to spell it out for me. I’d have little to gain by opening my mouth anymore.

Again, it’s a small/tight company with a control freak of an owner who doesn’t exactly appreciate “new ideas” etc. we are stuck in the stone age as a company.

After that happened my boss sat me down and basically said “next time, just nod and say yes” and not to stir the pot etc. he went on to say “it’s my (my bosses) job to insulate you from having to talk directly to the owner” [/quote]

I remembered that story a little different than that. The way I remembered it was that you’d mentioned something to the owner (which was fine), and then you got chastized for saying anything at all. Sort of a “don’t go around me, don’t go above me, don’t undermine me” thing… in effect protecting his ego and position.

Now, what you just described, that could still be going on, but I don’t really have enough context.

That being said, when I worked at a small software company that built custom software for other small businesses, the owner of my company and I butted heads regularly. A lot of it was really just different approaches, both of which were effective. Our customers (usually the owners of other businesses) were happy with me and what we delivered, so ultimately it worked out. As long as I was able to keep the money flowing, we got along fine.

When I was fresh out of high school, before I started college, I had about 6 months to find something to do since I graduated early. I ended up working a data entry temp job out in the warehouse of a local business. When I started, I dropped my resume off with the IT Director, and he did the courteous “I’ll let you know if we have something” dismissal.

Mostly out of annoyance at the inefficiencies, I ended up writing some tools to help me do a better job with the data entry. I shared it with the other temp employees, and productivity shot up quite a bit. The Production Manager caught wind of it, and they ended up taking me on as an intern for the summer. I ended up working directly for the owner doing some process improvement work, and actually designed a completely new production system that was mostly digital.

I was getting paid $8 an hour to do this. I went off to college, and they took my basic idea, invested $2 million dollars, completely reshaped the company and made it into some industry magazine. I never came back to work there, but I got some really strong job recommendations going forward.

Now, I screwed up politically with that job a lot. I had the favor of the owner and a few people on the executive staff, but most everyone hated the fact that I had the kind of influence I did. Envy, jealousy, whatever you want to call it. I’ve learned how to do the same kinds of things without being quite so obvious about it since then.

So it sort of gets back to the point of… make the company money, make sure the people who pay you are happy with what they get, and the rest sort of works it all out.

It’s also important to realize that EVERY change will get pushback, some of it is legit, a lot of it isn’t. You have to have the confidence to stand by your ideas, know how to make the right compromises and concessions, and just generally muster the energy to push things through. The more you try to actually get done, the harder it’s going to be. That’s just par for the course.

210

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
it’s just a matter of keeping up with inflation and such, [/quote]

Which is a massive, massive problem these days, and why shooting for “ok income” from what is assumed as the minimum expect effort so that you can “enjoy” your life because you aren’t at work a single second more than you could possibly bear, is a losing strategy.

Basic economics dictate that the current Fed policy and government actions (in the US) are going to lead to hyper-inflation. (why it isn’t yet/that it isn’t/that we are in a significant deflationary period is up for debate) So either hundreds of years of accepted economic theory is wrong, or a lot of people are going to be hurting soon. Which means the government will have to step in, and that means more money. Which means higher taxes and more debt, both economic drags.

People in their 40’s and 50’s have different options and can take different paths. I would say anyone in their 20’s that is “settling” for lessor money to “enjoy life” right now is setting themselves up for some serious pain. Efforts to make as much as you can right now, and living in a reasonable manner cannot be stressed enough.

But whatever, people insist I’m an asshole (I am) and hate my life (I don’t) so what do I know. [/quote]

Damn right!

[/quote]

I don’t fully understand this. I thought some form of retirement match was like health care in that a majority of business’ offer it. Is that not true?

211

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t fully understand this. I thought some form of retirement match was like health care in that a majority of business’ offer it. Is that not true? [/quote]

Only about half of the jobs I’ve worked have even HAD a retirement program. Of those, not all of them had a match.

[At least] one of the companies I worked for didn’t even have health care.

212

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t fully understand this. I thought some form of retirement match was like health care in that a majority of business’ offer it. Is that not true? [/quote]

Only about half of the jobs I’ve worked have even HAD a retirement program. Of those, not all of them had a match.

[At least] one of the companies I worked for didn’t even have health care.[/quote]

What size were the companies?

I guess I’ve never worked for a real small company. The smallest was probably 150 employees. My current company is like 8,000.

213

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t fully understand this. I thought some form of retirement match was like health care in that a majority of business’ offer it. Is that not true? [/quote]

Only about half of the jobs I’ve worked have even HAD a retirement program. Of those, not all of them had a match.

[At least] one of the companies I worked for didn’t even have health care.[/quote]

What size were the companies?
[/quote]

Companies without retirement programs: ~700, ~10, ~80.
Companies without health care: the 10 person one
Companies with retirement programs and company match: ~200, ~2000, ~1500, ~130,000

214

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t fully understand this. I thought some form of retirement match was like health care in that a majority of business’ offer it. Is that not true? [/quote]

Only about half of the jobs I’ve worked have even HAD a retirement program. Of those, not all of them had a match.

[At least] one of the companies I worked for didn’t even have health care.[/quote]

What size were the companies?
[/quote]

Companies without retirement programs: ~700[/quote]

That’s crazy

215

I believe GENERALLY speaking, in this day and age, employers do not give a rat’s ass about their employees.

216

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I believe GENERALLY speaking, in this day and age, employers do not give a rat’s ass about their employees. [/quote]

Yes an no. In some respects, sure, but in others… All the people making these management decisions are employees too.

I wouldn’t agree, generally speaking, but in specific examples you are correct and I agree. (If I was to agree in general I would place blame on much more than the companies for the actions that lead you to the conclusion.)

There is a metric for this, and one the is often overlooked. Business is like a triangle. AT one point you have owners/investors, the second employees and the third customers. You need to find the sweet spot that services all three. You can’t over emphasis any one point or you will fail, conversely you can’t ignore any of the points or you will fail too.

And as a small aside, I think a phrase that couples well with your statement is: I think that, generally speaking, in this day and age, employees think they are worth way more than they really are.

217

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I believe GENERALLY speaking, in this day and age, employers do not give a rat’s ass about their employees. [/quote]

Yes an no. In some respects, sure, but in others… All the people making these management decisions are employees too.

I wouldn’t agree, generally speaking, but in specific examples you are correct and I agree. (If I was to agree in general I would place blame on much more than the companies for the actions that lead you to the conclusion.)

There is a metric for this, and one the is often overlooked. Business is like a triangle. AT one point you have owners/investors, the second employees and the third customers. You need to find the sweet spot that services all three. You can’t over emphasis any one point or you will fail, conversely you can’t ignore any of the points or you will fail too.

And as a small aside, I think a phrase that couples well with your statement is: I think that, generally speaking, in this day and age, employees think they are worth way more than they really are. [/quote]
Agreed.

And generally speaking I believe most people over estimate their worth.

218

As an IBEW Local 26 member, my healthcare and retirement are above and beyond what I get “in the envelope”. I have BC BS insurance through the EWTF, I have a pension plan that will pay me ~$150 a month for every year of service that I work until I die and I have an annuity that pays $4.10 an hour for every hour I work and is automatically deposited into my Vanguard account - It’s been building since 1996 and I’ve worked A LOT of overtime - do the math ;). I have the option to move that money around (within the guidelines of the various funds) as I see fit. On top of that, there is the pension from the international IBEW which is $15 a month per year of service.

Plus the scale is now $41.95 an hour (I get paid way over scale because of my critical power expertise). Also my apprenticeship cost me exactly NOTHING… In fact I was paid to go to school.

Plus I have other investments in real estate and business that are quite nice from my mortgage days.

I’d make more working non-union in the envelope, and I did while I was down in the GOM. But nothing I’ve come across can touch the pension, annuity and benefits that I currently have. Do any of you “white collar” guys have better deal than that? :slight_smile:

I am eligible to retire when I am 54. At which point I will sail the world in a 38’ Hans Christian yacht living a live of adventure and debauchery until the end of my days.

219

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Do any of you “white collar” guys have better deal than that? :slight_smile:

[/quote]

No, but I would be a shitty electrician.

And, you are one of the people I talked about in this thread or the other one where your costs to the company are closer to $2 for every $1 of salary. (That is not a knock on you, your profession or a union. It is simply just a statement of fact for prospective purposes.)

220

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Do any of you “white collar” guys have better deal than that? :slight_smile:

[/quote]

No, but I would be a shitty electrician.

And, you are one of the people I talked about in this thread or the other one where your costs to the company are closer to $2 for every $1 of salary. (That is not a knock on you, your profession or a union. It is simply just a statement of fact for prospective purposes.)[/quote]

It’s not THAT much, but it’s definitely more than my hourly. The difference is with electrical construction is that most union journeyman electricians can hit the ground running on just about any job. There’s no “training period”. We all know the National Electrical Code, how to bend pipe, follow prints, etc… It’s actually a pretty good value - especially in and around DC with all of the government work where they “have” to pay the prevailing wage.

The union “package” is about 62 and some change an hour with all of the “fringes” (I see about 42 of that). That’s why on Davis Bacon work (all gov’t contracts), the non union guys make more per hour, cuz the employers don’t have the benefit package they have to pay, but are obligated to pay the same “total” amount. When I show up on a job for an emergency call, they bill the customer $310 an hour (that includes me, my truck, expendable tools, etc…) with a 4 hour minimum - even if I fix the problem in 5 minutes.