Jihad on the March

[quote]lixy wrote:

You should be convinced that distancing yourself from their actions is the right thing to do. The terrorists only use it as a rallying cause to recruit people.[/quote]

Wrong.

It is the right thing to do to support the only Western democracy in all of barbaria.

Second, if we didn’t support Israel, terrorists would just turn and substitute some other “rallying cry” - and the mindless dupes would follow all the same.

I’ll trust your judgment on that one. But I suspect the “leap” isn’t very far.

Why would the average Arab on the street care about American foreign policy?

As long as Israel exists - regardless of US support of it or not - there will be “recruits” against the “apes and pigs” that occupy what is supposed to belong the barbarians.

There will never be a “limited pool” of these idiots as long as Islamic society continues to backslide into barbarism and blame others for its decline. It doesn’t matter if it is Israel, Western culture, a McDonald’s on the main street, oil trade - there will always be a scapegoat for the misery of the Islamic society, so there will be ample supply of terrorists.

I don’t think anyone would give much weight to a “pacifist’s” theory on how to win a war - that aside, you present a false choice. You can do both.

If the US disengaged from the world, Islamic societies wouldn’t suddenly improve. They would continue to rot.

They would continue to whine about Israel, past glory, tribal rivalries, and apostasy.

Nothing will change until they learn that their misery is self-inflicted and their lashing out at others only exacts higher and higher costs.

One would think they would learn their collective lesson after getting housed by Israel in 1948 - that the naked aggression to assuage their humiliated culture would only result in more costly humiliation - but the Islamic societies have been given philosophical cover by the “victim” industry and the Left, because nothing is ever “their fault”.

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
You know, I need to read that book.

That Fatwa sure was the best thing that happened to Rushdie. Got him fame, money, and more recently, knighthood.[/quote]

Interesting that in your post here Lixy you don’t condem threats of violence against non muslims… You actually endorse it. Thought you claimed to be a pacifist. But that is just some good old Taqiyya isn’t it?

[quote]orion wrote:
On a personal level it will forever remain a mistery to me why people completely lose it if someone waves a coloured piece of cloth before them.

That is somehow like hypnotizing chicken…

[/quote]

You are correct, sir. A piece of cloth, some illusion of “better” that is scarfed down. The majority are suckers.

[quote]orion wrote:
kroby wrote:
orion wrote:
How long do you think you can last by sponsoring both sides of the “war”?

Sadly, the status quo finds that the current situations are quite acceptable. Simply put: business is good. Why would they want to chage it?

Americans?

I dunno, lack of freedoms, erosion of the republic, public debt up to the eyeballs?

But I guess as long as they are easily entertained with creationism, gay marriage, and mindless patriotism they pretty much get what they deserve.

On a personal level it will forever remain a mistery to me why people completely lose it if someone waves a coloured piece of cloth before them.

That is somehow like hypnotizing chicken…

Well, I guess the lure of the tribe is strong…
[/quote]

Your just jealous 'cause we have Paris Hilton.

[quote]orion wrote:
On a personal level it will forever remain a mistery to me why people completely lose it if someone waves a coloured piece of cloth before them.

That is somehow like hypnotizing chicken…[/quote]

Well said.

I’m also amazed at how the majority cares more about the score of their local soccer team or some celebrity’s love life than kids dying around the globe. We reached a point where defeatism wins over good judgment. People seem to be content with the lesser evil ruling them.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Wrong.

It is the right thing to do to support the only Western democracy in all of barbaria.

Second, if we didn’t support Israel, terrorists would just turn and substitute some other “rallying cry” - and the mindless dupes would follow all the same. [/quote]

You don’t get it; I spoke of unconditional support. And if you think your government is doing it out of choice, think again.

As for finding another “rallying cry”, they’d have to find a legitimate one.

If that means what I thinks it does, it’s not funny at all.

Because you support the crooked bloody dictators that rule them.

I think by now, the existence of Israel is no longer on the table. There’s nobody that can threaten a nuclear power.

The only question on the agenda is a fair settlement of the Palestinian question. By any mean, the Arab population will ultimately outnumber the Jews in Israel. So, I say find a solution before that happens, or the accumulation of grievances will trigger some really bad events for the minority. But of course, you don’t give a damn.

I disagree.

Sure you can. But bombing the hell out of inhabited areas kills innocents.

Certainly not suddenly. I know for a fact that US interventionism holds any improvement back. Look at Iran and how you’re fucking up the moderates with your aggressive attitude.

And you plan to do that by actively participating in their slaughter?

Again with the conspiracy theories of the Arabs having control over your so-called “Left”?

Lixy wrote:

Because you support the crooked bloody dictators that rule them.

Question, why do you always say it is the US who supports these dictators.

When it was time for Bush to declare war on Saddam, which governments did not want to participate? The Germans, the French and the Russians. Why? Because they had the most to lose in Iraq. Why? Because they were the ones giving him the most support.

Yet, I never hear anyone bitching about the Russians, the French or the Germans
supporting dictators. These countries along with China get a free hand to support whoever they choose. Only the allies of the US are all portrayed as evil.

Why is this?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Again with the conspiracy theories of the Arabs having control over your so-called “Left”?[/quote]

I believe you have this turned around.

[quote]kroby wrote:
orion wrote:
On a personal level it will forever remain a mistery to me why people completely lose it if someone waves a coloured piece of cloth before them.

That is somehow like hypnotizing chicken…

You are correct, sir. A piece of cloth, some illusion of “better” that is scarfed down. The majority are suckers.[/quote]

Welcome to Canada. Where most people don’t give two shits about our cloth (but it is pretty to look at). You can waive it all you want, but its not going to work any better.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
When it was time for Bush to declare war on Saddam, which governments did not want to participate? The Germans, the French and the Russians. Why? [/quote]

Because they actually gave a damn about what public opinion. You see, the only country where there was a majority of people supporting the war was the US. So, to answer your question, it was about respecting the will of the people. Something your leaders don’t seem to be giving two shits about.

[quote]Yet, I never hear anyone bitching about the Russians, the French or the Germans
supporting dictators. These countries along with China get a free hand to support whoever they choose. Only the allies of the US are all portrayed as evil.

Why is this?[/quote]

So, you wanna play the victim card now? Sorry, it doesn’t work when you’ve got the greatest military power the world has ever seen.

Do you read the French press? The Belgian press? The Swedish press? How the fuck can you say that nobody’s bitching about their actions?

People bitch about every single rifle or bullet that gets sold to a dictator. The Europeans, unlike you, have experienced war and have had their share of colonialism to know better. You and your country are bound to learn eventually.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Lixy wrote:

Because you support the crooked bloody dictators that rule them.

Question, why do you always say it is the US who supports these dictators.

When it was time for Bush to declare war on Saddam, which governments did not want to participate? The Germans, the French and the Russians. Why? Because they had the most to lose in Iraq. Why? Because they were the ones giving him the most support.

Yet, I never hear anyone bitching about the Russians, the French or the Germans
supporting dictators. These countries along with China get a free hand to support whoever they choose. Only the allies of the US are all portrayed as evil.

Why is this?[/quote]

Excellent question.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
When it was time for Bush to declare war on Saddam, which governments did not want to participate? The Germans, the French and the Russians. Why?

Because they actually gave a damn about what public opinion. You see, the only country where there was a majority of people supporting the war was the US. So, to answer your question, it was about respecting the will of the people. Something your leaders don’t seem to be giving two shits about.

Yet, I never hear anyone bitching about the Russians, the French or the Germans
supporting dictators. These countries along with China get a free hand to support whoever they choose. Only the allies of the US are all portrayed as evil.

Why is this?

So, you wanna play the victim card now? Sorry, it doesn’t work when you’ve got the greatest military power the world has ever seen.

Do you read the French press? The Belgian press? The Swedish press? How the fuck can you say that nobody’s bitching about their actions?

People bitch about every single rifle or bullet that gets sold to a dictator. The Europeans, unlike you, have experienced war and have had their share of colonialism to know better. You and your country are bound to learn eventually.[/quote]

Why don’t you answer the question?

Well, apparently it takes a dictator to keep the Islamists under control. After all, life was better under Saddam, right?

Interesting view point from a muslim woman gone western atheist.

Resident Fellow
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

The first time that I was at a gathering like this one, it was November 2005 at the Krasnapolsky hotel in Amsterdam; not quite like this one, though, because there is only one National Press Club. I was invited to a session on media coverage of Islam, and Submission was shown. Submission is a 10-minute film I made with Theo van Gogh. As many of you know, he was killed for it by a Muslim.

I found myself in the odd position of defending freedom of expression, free press, and the rights of women against Arab-Islamic journalists and commentators. I found it odd because the Western journalists whose conference it was were either quiet, mumbled something about free expression, or approached me after the session and whispered into my ear that I had done a good job. I noticed the embarrassment they felt at defending the very right from which they earn their bread.

I noticed the same sense of uneasiness in early 2006 among Western journalists, academics, politicians, and commentators on how to respond to the cartoons of Muhammad in Denmark. In fact, many seriously defended the assertion that Denmark had to apologize for the cartoons. This attitude was repeated in the fall of last year when the Pope quoted a Byzantine emperor who wrote that the founder of Islam spread his religion by the sword, and the New York Times urged the Pope to apologize.

It is not the end of history. The 21st century began with a battle of ideas, and this battle is about the values of the West versus those of Islam.

Tony Blair, a leader I admire, wrote in the first issue of this year’s Foreign Affairs magazine that what we were facing after the 11th of September was a battle of ideas, a battle of values. In his article, Blair began by incisively outlining the most crucial conflict of our time, but then lost the line of his argument in inconsistency when he came to clarifying the parties involved in the war of values. He backpedaled against his argument and declared that the Koran is a great book, ahead of its time and good for women.

Why are Westerners so insecure about everything that is so wonderful about the West: political freedom, free press, freedom of expression, equal rights for women and men, gays and heterosexuals, critical thinking, and the great strength of scrutinizing ideas–and especially faith?

It is not the end of history. The 21st century began with a battle of ideas, and this battle is about the values of the West versus those of Islam. Tony Blair and the Pope should not be embarrassed in saying it, and you should stop self-censoring. Islam and liberal democracy are incompatible; cultures and religions are not equal. And perhaps most important of all, Muslims are not half-wits who can respond only in violence. The Koran is not a great book; it is reactionary and full of misogyny. The Byzantine emperor’s analysis of Muhammad was correct: he spread his faith by the sword.

From this perspective journalists like all the rest of us face the unpleasant reality of taking sides or getting lost in the incoherence of the so-called middle ground. The role of journalists serving the West, who understand what this particular battle is about, will be to inform their audiences accordingly.

As I travel from country to country to testify from experience and observation that Islamic dogma creates a cult of death, a cage for women, and a curse against knowledge, I get both support and opposition. Europeans and Americans ask:

But what about the good Muslim living next to me? What about the different schools of thought in Islam? Is there no difference between the Muslims of Indonesia and the ones in Somalia, or the Muslims in Saudi Arabia and those in Turkey? Can we really generalize? What about the women who voluntarily wear the headscarf and the burqa and are happy to relinquish their freedom as their faith requires? If we give Catholics and Protestants and Jews their schools and their universities, isn't it only fair to give Muslims theirs, too? If generations of Jews, Italians, and Irish have assimilated, is it unreasonable to think that Muslims will assimilate too, eventually?" Isn't it more fruitful to engage in debate with your opponent and convince him through dialogue to take back his declaration of war than to attack him? Isn't it obvious that military attacks, such as those in Afghanistan after 9/11 and in Iraq, create more terrorists, and therefore more people who are determined to destroy the West than there would be if we had dialogue with them? 

These questions are legitimate and deserve serious answers. Let’s make a moral distinction between Islam and Muslims. Muslims are diverse. Some, like Irshad Manji and Tawfiq Hamid, want to reform their faith. Others want to spread their beliefs through persuasion, violence or both. Others are apathetic and do not care much for politics. Others want to leave it and convert to Christianity, like Nonie Darwish, or become atheist, like me.

Islam unreformed, as a set of beliefs, is hostile to everything Western.

In a free society, if Jews, Protestants, and Catholics have their own schools, then Muslims should have theirs, too. But how long should we ignore that in Muslim schools in the West, kids are taught to believe that Jews are pigs and dogs? Or that they should distance themselves from unbelievers and jihad is a virtue? Isn’t it odd that everywhere in Europe with large Muslim organizations, demands are made not to teach kids about the Holocaust, while in mosques and Muslim bookshops The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is distributed?

And what about in Muslim lands, where Jews, Catholics, and Protestants cannot have their own schools, or churches, or graveyards? If Muslims can proselytize in Vatican City, why can’t Christians proselytize in Mecca? Why do we find this acceptable? If Christians, Jews, and Atheists take to the streets in large numbers to protest against their own elected governments in objection to the war in Iraq, to the war against terror, why don’t Muslims march in equally large number against the beheadings of Western aid workers? Why don’t Muslims stand up for their own? Why are Jews and Christians and Atheists in the West the ones fighting genocide in Darfur? Why does it pass unnoticed in Muslim lands when Shias kill Sunnis and Sunnis, Shias by the thousands? It doesn’t add up, does it? If you ask me, “What is the role of journalism today?” I would urge you to look into these questions.

As a woman in the West I have access to education. I have a job, and I can change jobs as I wish. I can marry the man of my choice, or I can choose not to marry at all. If nature allows it, I can have any number of children I want. I can manipulate nature and freeze my eggs. I can have an abortion. I can own property. I can travel wherever I want. I can read whichever book, newspaper, or magazine I wish. I can watch any movie I want or go to the museum of my choice. I can have an opinion on the moral choices of others and express my opinion, even publish it. And I can change my mind as time goes by. I can establish a political party or join an existing one; I am free to change parties or give up my membership. I can vote. I can choose not to vote. I can stand for election to office or go into business. This is what makes the West so great.

In Muslim lands, except for a very lucky few, women are denied education, have no job, and are forced into marriage with strangers. In the name of Islam, women are denied the right to their bodies; they cannot choose whether to have children or how many to have. They have no rights to abortion, and often they die trying to get one. They cannot own property, trade, or travel without the risk of robbery or rape. Most women (and men) live in state and religious censorship on what to read (if they can read at all) and what films to watch, and they have hardly any museums or art they can enjoy. Of the 57 Muslim nations that are members of the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference), only two are democracies. Both are frail and corrupt, and both face the risk of being overtaken by the agents of pure Islam. Turkey has a safety check in the shape of the army and Indonesia none. In none of these countries–except for the usual show-pieces to delude the West–are women allowed to establish their own political parties, play a meaningful role in one, vote, or run for office.

This obsession with subjugating women is one of the things that makes Islam so low. And the agents of Islam–from Riyadh to Tehran, from Islamabad to Cairo–know that any improvement in the lives of women will lead to the demise of Islam and a disappearance of their power. This is why, among other things, they are so desperate to cage in women. This is why they also hate the West.

Please don’t be fooled by the few shrill voices–in or out of the veil–that enjoy the status quo and betray their fellow women.

If we do not understand the differences between Islam and the West–why one is so great and the other so low–and we don’t fight back and win this battle of ideas in order to preserve our civilization, in my view there is no point to your profession or mine.
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.26367,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Excellent question.[/quote]

That’s not an answer, now is it?

[quote]lixy wrote:

You don’t get it; I spoke of unconditional support. And if you think your government is doing it out of choice, think again.[/quote]

I see - so you are slipping into the “Jewish conspiracy theory”? Enjoy your continuing descent into silliness.

Wrong. The Islamic societies and the people who make them up don’t require “legitimacy” to any of their grievances. Poor, stupid, and backwards - they lash out for any reason.

Secondly, Israel remains an illegitimate reason. Arabs won control of the area in war. They lost control of it in war, one they started. That should be the end of it.

As for the plight of the Palestinians, stop wasting my time. Arabs don’t give a damn about Palestinians - in other Musli countries, these “victims” are treated as second-class citizens. If Arab societies are so worried about the living standards of poor Palestinians, why not assimilate them instead of ghettoizing them?

The Palestinian “cause” is a mere fabrication to hold a grievance against the hated Israel. The Palestinian “cause” is only believed to be real by college-age radicals living off their daddy’s money.

Arabs don’t care about this - dictators are the stock in trade of Islamic politics. Democracy is foreign.

They have been fine with “dictators” long before the US came along - so that avenue is a foolish one. You “romanticize” the Arab world as these pitiful victims being denied their rights to a liberal, humanist society by the West - it is an illusion.

An absolute lie on your part - how many of the Islamic societies are content to live with Israel in peace? To share the area?

Have you idea that your naked apologism exposes your true motives?

So does deliberately hiding amongst civilians when in a war, but you won’t condemn that to the same degree.

You hate the idea of killing innocents - but when we read about Muslims slaugtering other Muslims, or shredding African Christians and animists, or bulldozing Buddhist statutes, or deliberately targeting civilians in suicide attacks…

…we don’t get the same amount of condemnation out of you. That is curious, indeed.

Nonsense - what does the West do to make your precious societies cling to murderous tribalism? To gender apartheid? To a caste system?

Again, all you ever do is scapegoat. If and when the US leaves, the Middle East will dissolve into a naked power contest between rival tribes.

Ridiculous, Lixy, and you know it. You do like the propaganda though, no?

Nice try. There is no conspiracy theory.

Islamic nations weep for past glories, and Israel is a constant reminder of their failures. They thought they could reclaim that glory and power through naked acts of war against Israel - imperialism by your standard, Lixy, but we never hear you condemn that - and they got beat. They have tried since 1948 as well.

So outright war didn’t work - Arabs got spanked and sent home, humiliated. So Arab nations invented the Palestinian cause.

Enter the Left, buying into the dupe of the century. Since then, the Left has given philosophical cover to these barbarians by crying over a fictitious Palestinian cause.

Well done. How does it feel to be a pawn for the barbarian forces that are hell bent on all the things you supposedly stand for - imperialistic domination, racism, fascism, and intolerance?

The unquestioning Lixy may grow up one day - perhaps when the trust fund runs out.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Excellent question.

That’s not an answer, now is it?[/quote]

I was waiting for your answer. I know the answer.

The answer is many western leftists don’t really give a shit about the evils of Islam as described in the article above. They care more about gaining power in their own countries than about the plight of people on the other side of the world. Their hypocrisy is staggering.

[quote]unbending wrote:
Welcome to Canada. Where most people don’t give two shits about our cloth (but it is pretty to look at). You can waive it all you want, but its not going to work any better.

[/quote]

No, unbending. THIS colorful piece of cloth makes the people do all sorts of things.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
When it was time for Bush to declare war on Saddam, which governments did not want to participate? The Germans, the French and the Russians. Why?

Because they actually gave a damn about what public opinion. You see, the only country where there was a majority of people supporting the war was the US. So, to answer your question, it was about respecting the will of the people. Something your leaders don’t seem to be giving two shits about.

[/quote]

NO. Follow the money, lixy. When are you going to get it? They don’t give two craps for the people. They are heavily invested, and have every expectation that it will never be returned with Saddam gone.

I’m seriously questioning your ability to produce rational thought.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Interesting view point from a muslim woman gone western atheist.

Resident Fellow
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

[/quote]

Thanks, Sloth. It’s been a while since I’ve been confronted with a drastic change of understanding that demands attention. I fear that my conclusion will sadden me.