@ Jewbacca: Two State/One State?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

The troubles in Europe are greatly increasing aliyah, given Jewish people are the target of Muslims there. So there has been an uptick.

There is not really immigration TO the Arab-occupied areas. The Christian Arab population is doing its best to flee either to Israel or the USA. As Hamas has gained power, the Christians have really become a subject of persecution.

I’ve seen the posts re: population growth. I can post others about Orthodox like myself having too many babies (I’ve fathered 8). It’s a disputed issue, but it could be problematic. I personally don’t think it is an issue.

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22

Well, allow me to chime in - @Jewbacca probably won’t like what I’m going to write, but here we go. First some background - I have family in Israel, visited it quite a few times and have worked extensively in the Middle East.

I don’t think that in US media it’s possible to have a objective discussion about Israel and it’s security/political issues - I remember Jon Stewart (yes, the evil one) saying that even statements by Jewish Knesset MPs fall out of the acceptable scope of US discourse about Israel, which is ultimately detrimental to Israel itself.

Of course, when I’m talking about “acceptable score of discourse” I’m excluding alt-right creeps like the resident one here and staggeringly naive leftist students who decide to support the Palestinians because it’s their “safe rebellious phase” and consequently socialize with fascist radical Islamists.

The ugly fact is that Israel has no idea what to do with the Occup…I mean “Judea and Samaria” since 1967. I’ve read about the exchange between Moshe Dayan and Rabin as the paratroopers reached the Wall in which Rabin asked about the Arabs living in newly conquered territories - “Oh, they’ll leave in the next few days” was allegedly the dismissive reply by Dayan. Guess what - they didn’t leave. And that created a myriad of problems.

So despite some Israeli politicians paying lip service to the “two state solution”, that’s pretty much bullshit, which can easily be confirmed just by glancing at the map. That’s why Netanyahu and Israel are prepared for the state of “perpetual conflict” because there’s no way the Palestinians are supposed to acquiesce to a smattering of micro Bantustans supposedly forming a “Palestinian” state squeezed between Israeli settlements, highways and military zones. And Israel believes that they can always leverage sufficient military force and security measures to keep the terrorism in West Bank and Gaza down to acceptable levels.

Of course, all of this could have been avoided if the Arab states accepted and integrated Arabs from Palestine - it happened numerous times in the Mediterranean basin even in the 20th century - Greeks from Asia Minor, Pieds-noirs (French settlers) from Algeria etc were accepted and absorbed in their respective national countries…

But since pretty much every Arab hates the Palestinians - despite ostensibly fighting for their rights - numerous Arab leaders were more than happy to keep generations of Arab “refugees” living in squalid camps, using them when they saw fit and as a prop when they had to flash their pan-Arab credentials by calling for the destruction of Israel.

So, no - there’s no solution.

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23

I actually don’t particularly disagree with any thing you said. It’s a very difficult issue.

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The Israelis are far too sophisticated to believe this. They know where the demographic trends are going. At some point, the intensity of military intervention required will reach a level considered unacceptable–either by Israeli citizens themselves, or by the international community (including the US). And if it’s the latter, Israel will become a pariah state on a par with apartheid-era South Africa.

The status quo will not hold forever. One way or another, this dilemma will be resolved. It is in everyone’s interest that that resolution be a negotiated one.

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Probably not resolved. Fought over, but not resolved.

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My mother recalled that when she was in high school in the 1920s the Middle East was in conflict, and that it has never seemed to stop.

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I’ve always found your reasoning to be sound, JB.

This all must be an extremely difficult issue.

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Actually, no. I don’t necessarily disagree with you re: demographics, but there are a lot of projections that disagree with the idea of overwhelming Arab hoard theory.

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If the Jewish-Israeli birth/population growth rate manages to keep pace with that of the Palestinians, a demographic crisis will not be averted–in fact, it might be hastened.

As the old saying goes, ‘Buy land, because they’re not making any more of it.’ And while this expression needs to be amended in light of China’s island-building endeavors in the South China Sea, it still applies in Israel’s neighborhood. As the populations of all groups living in Israel and the OT balloons, there will be increasing pressure on the finite resources imposed by the limited space and resources available. Eventually, the situation will be akin to trying to accommodate 10# of sausage (kosher of course) in a 5# sausage casing–it just won’t fit. Even the author of your first source seems to admit as much at the end of the piece (I can’t quote it, as the website won’t let me re-access it without subscribing).

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[quote=“EyeDentist, post:29, topic:226353, full:true”]
If the Jewish-Israeli birth/population growth rate manages to keep pace with that of the Palestinians, a demographic crisis will not be averted.[/quote]

I don’t disagree (other than Israeli Arabs don’t like to be called “Palestinians” – they like “Arab-Israelis” or just “Israeli” – they have increasingly little in common with their radical kinsman) – to lump Arab-Israelis together with Arabs who vote for Hamas is a good way to get whipped in a bar fight, as well as I think the additional reason to not be panicked about birth rates.

But general overpopulation is a different issue than the “we’re going to be outnumbered” issue, with technical answers to a lot of the problems – for example, desalination of sea water is on its way to making much of the Negev habitable land.

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one possibility based on jordan being the palestinian state with a provision for israeli-arabs to live within land west of jordan river

http://www.israpundit.org/archives/63621464

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Yeah, when I referred to ‘the Palestinians,’ I wasn’t referring to Arab-Israelis–I meant their ‘kinsmen.’

As Israel continues to expand Jewish settlement of the West Bank, Palestinians are of necessity being displaced further and further (both literally and figuratively). Looking down the road, Israel’s current course seems (to me) to lead to one of two outcomes, both tragic in their own way:

  1. A de facto one-state solution emerges, in which case Israel will become an international pariah–South Africa redux; or
  2. Some sort of horrifically violent event–qualitatively worse than the horrific violence that has characterized this conflict–will occur. Given Israel’s military prowess, they will ‘win’ such an event–but the death toll they would inflict in doing so would lead also to pariah status of a different sort.
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I’m not sure that would work. My next-door neighbor is an Israeli-Arab. He’s a doctor and Christian and would no more live in a Moslem-dominated country than you would.

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THIS is the best solution I have yet heard.

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Sustainable, yes. Far from ideal or even good. But I think it can be sustained indefinitely. It’s not what anybody wants, but bad is a sustainable thing. It should not be sustained indefinitely and I think annexing the regions to their stable neighbors is probably the best solution I have heard yet. The problem is that even the Arabs don’t seem to like the Palestinians very much so I don’t know how that negotiation would go.
As it stands right now, the occupied territories have no grounds to self rule. There just simply is no stable leadership. You have Hamas which are terrorists and the PLO which has little to no respect in the region.

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You answered your own question.

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The provision for those not wanting to move is Jordan citizenship, but Israel residency.

Are you saying that wouldn’t work because of pressure from his citizenship and the ‘directives’ that might involve?

Edit Does Israel not allow citizenship for non Jewish (ie Christian)?

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I’m not sure I am following.

Israeli citizens, be they Jewish, Arab-Christian, Arab-Moslem, or Druze are citizens. The only difference is there are set-asides (basically affirmative action) for Arab-Moslem and Arab-Moslem are not subject to draft in the IDF (although many volunteer).

In fact, Arab-Christians are, per capita, the most educated and highest income group in Israel. Unlike the rest of the Arab world, they face no religious discrimination. Why the heck would they want to be part of some marginal country?

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I don’t think Israel cares about becoming a pariah. I think they care more about not being wiped off the face of the Earth.

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Would this involve forcibly re-locating Palestinians to the annexed regions? Because that would be ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity.

Perhaps it’s a failure of imagination on my part, but I don’t see how the Palestinians could ‘wipe Israel from the face of the Earth.’

And they very much do care about not becoming an international pariah. Pariah-states are isolated and sanctioned.

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