Jesus or Burn

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
182

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Oh really? I am wrong? I will give you this…yes Jesus taught mercy and He has mercy. His mercy extends to giving sinners like me and you a chance to repent and gain His forgiveness for our sins and be saved.[/quote]

Yes, you are wrong because you concentrate on all the unnecessary edifice of religion that has been built around Jesus’ extremely simple message of love and forgiveness. You use your faith as a weapon to condemn others. Your faith is like a cloak of smugness in which you wrap yourself to feel superior.

Where does Jesus say to read your Bible? Where does Jesus say to tell people they’ll burn in Hell? Where does Jesus tell you to judge others as you think, mistakenly at that, that God will judge them?

What you’re doing on your threads is not bringing His message of love and forgiveness; you’re simply judging and condemning people who don’t believe in Jesus, while knowing actually nothing of their real lives.

Your mistake, time and again, is to concentrate on believing in Jesus the person; instead of following his message and teachings.

Jesus didn’t want to be a superstar; he doesn’t want, or need, a cult of personality. He had a simple message to bring.

Matt 5:7 - Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Matt 5:12 - And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;

(There goes your “sin debt”… forgiven to you as you’ve forgiven to others. It’s so simple.)

Matt 5:14 - For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;

Matt 5:36 - Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Matt 5:37 - Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Those are the words of Jesus. I’d be particularly concerned with the “judge not” and “condemn not” parts. To me, it appears you do quite a lot if it.
Do you expect God to judge and condemn you in the same way you do your fellow men?

Even the scripture you quoted to me has this message; yet you fail to understand it. The rich man ignores entirely the plight of the beggar at his gate; he doesn’t offer him food, shelter or any comfort. Similarly, God ignores his plight after death. He’s treated as he’s treated others during his life. Had he shown any mercy and compassion, he’d be in Heaven with the beggar.

I’ll go with Jesus’ response when he was confronted with the same assertions in his time:

Matt 9:13 - Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’

Now, who should I believe? You, who contends that God is like some petty little accountant, ringing up my “Sin debt” to collect when I die; or Jesus, who time and again repeats that God is love and does not require “sacrifice” but love; He requires me to treat my fellow man in the same way I’ll want Him to treat me in the afterlife. If I forgive offenses and trespasses done to me, He’ll also forgive my offenses and trespasses against Him.

Who is more likely to be correct? Which holds the Truth? Steve0’s teachings or Jesus’ teachings?

Go and learn what this means: “(God) desires mercy, and not sacrifice.”

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[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Oh really? I am wrong? I will give you this…yes Jesus taught mercy and He has mercy. His mercy extends to giving sinners like me and you a chance to repent and gain His forgiveness for our sins and be saved.

Yes, you are wrong because you concentrate on all the unnecessary edifice of religion that has been built around Jesus’ extremely simple message of love and forgiveness. You use your faith as a weapon to condemn others. Your faith is like a cloak of smugness in which you wrap yourself to feel superior.

Where does Jesus say to read your Bible? Where does Jesus say to tell people they’ll burn in Hell? Where does Jesus tell you to judge others as you think, mistakenly at that, that God will judge them?

What you’re doing on your threads is not bringing His message of love and forgiveness; you’re simply judging and condemning people who don’t believe in Jesus, while knowing actually nothing of their real lives.

Your mistake, time and again, is to concentrate on believing in Jesus the person; instead of following his message and teachings.

Jesus didn’t want to be a superstar; he doesn’t want, or need, a cult of personality. He had a simple message to bring.

Matt 5:7 - Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Matt 5:12 - And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;

(There goes your “sin debt”… forgiven to you as you’ve forgiven to others. It’s so simple.)

Matt 5:14 - For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;

Matt 5:36 - Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Matt 5:37 - Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Those are the words of Jesus. I’d be particularly concerned with the “judge not” and “condemn not” parts. To me, it appears you do quite a lot if it.
Do you expect God to judge and condemn you in the same way you do your fellow men?

Even the scripture you quoted to me has this message; yet you fail to understand it. The rich man ignores entirely the plight of the beggar at his gate; he doesn’t offer him food, shelter or any comfort. Similarly, God ignores his plight after death. He’s treated as he’s treated others during his life. Had he shown any mercy and compassion, he’d be in Heaven with the beggar.

However, God is also a God of justice and like any good judge, He must execute the sentence for our wrongdoings.

I’ll go with Jesus’ response when he was confronted with the same assertions in his time:

Matt 9:13 - Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’

Now, who should I believe? You, who contends that God is like some petty little accountant, ringing up my “Sin debt” to collect when I die; or Jesus, who time and again repeats that God is love and does not require “sacrifice” but love; He requires me to treat my fellow man in the same way I’ll want Him to treat me in the afterlife. If I forgive offenses and trespasses done to me, He’ll also forgive my offenses and trespasses against Him.

Who is more likely to be correct? Which holds the Truth? Steve0’s teachings or Jesus’ teachings?

Go and learn what this means: “(God) desires mercy, and not sacrifice.”[/quote]

Since Jesus is God (John 1:1), He wrote the entire Bible and thus what the Bible teaches is what Jesus teaches.

The fact that Jesus is merciful and there are verses to back that up, i totally agree. BUT…

Jesus is also a God of judgment, of which I quoted a few verses that you conveniently disregarded.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life…”

“…ye must be born-again to see the Kingdom of God [i.e. go to Heaven]…”

“…there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth…”

“…cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkenss…”

There are many many many more. In fact, if you study the Bible a bit more carefully you will see that Jesus taught more about Hell then any other single person in the Word of God. He taught more about Hell than Heaven because in His love and mercy He doesn’t want anyone to perish!

Poookie, these are Biblical facts. You can pick and choose your verses, but God’s Word is not a cafeteria, where you can have the chips, but not the pickle. YOu have to take it all at the same time or you misuse God’s Word and create a God of your own imagination. That violates the 1st Commandment of God as well.

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Mostly I post what God has written, so that you are telling us that these are “ridiculous slogans.”

Bow or Burn – what the Bible says.[/quote]

“Bow or Burn” - give me the quoted verse, please.

“What are YOU going to do about YOUR sin?” - same thing. Give me the quoted verse, please.

Those are the ridiculous slogans I’m talking about. Do you believe, even for one second, that such inanities would ever have been spoken by Jesus?

You always concentrate on people’s wrongdoings and the punishment for those. That’s not what Jesus and His message are about. It’s not about policing everyone and pointing out and condemning every little deviation from the straight and narrow; it’s about caring and love and forgiveness. There’s nothing of that in any of your threads. You’d rather tally up all the sins; and gleefully remind us that you think we’ll all be burning for eternity, since no one quite lives up to your high standards.

It seems a lot of what happens in the world scares you badly. I guess that’s your way to cope with things not in your control. If might work for you, although I’d suggest you find some other way to cope. But don’t try and pass off your hateful judgment as being from Jesus or what Jesus would want from you.

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
You can pick and choose your verses, but God’s Word is not a cafeteria, where you can have the chips, but not the pickle. YOu have to take it all at the same time or you misuse God’s Word and create a God of your own imagination. That violates the 1st Commandment of God as well.
[/quote]

Umm… you’re doing the exact same thing as what you’re accusing pookie of.

186

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Since Jesus is God (John 1:1), He wrote the entire Bible and thus what the Bible teaches is what Jesus teaches. [/quote]

Jesus came to establish a new covenant with Man; so the Old Testament can be regarded as an historical artefact; and not as authoritative anymore.

I don’t want to debate you on Biblical Innerrancy, because our views are diametrically opposed here and I don’t think a debate about it could change either opinion.

[quote]that you conveniently disregarded.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life…”[/quote]

Those are the words of Paul, not Jesus. In my view, Paul was the first to realize that there was power and respect to be had by lording his “divine authority” over others. Yes, I know, you disagree. Still, Jesus Himself never said that.

And what is being born-again but to realize and accept Jesus’ message?

If there is an afterlife, you might weep and gnash your teeth simply upon the realization of how badly you’ve treated your fellow man throughout your life. Again, if you live your life in a loving, caring, forgiving manner, you won’t have those regrets.

Read the rest of Matthew 25, and tell me that a young child could understand it. Go ahead, I’ll wait. Now tell me that whatever that passage is trying to say is the core message that you’re supposed to learn from Jesus. Be honest.

He taught about love and forgiveness. Why can you only concentrate on sin and Hell? Why do you get so much pleasure at telling others they’ll burn for eternity? Why is pointing out everone’s sins so enjoyable to you?

That’s not what Jesus taught at all.

Think about it. Which one of these worlds is the one you’d like to live in:

World A) Everyone polices everyone else and points out any wrongdoing, real or perceived, judging each other as sinners and condemning each other to Hell for eternity.

World B) Everyone treats everyone else as they expect to be treated in return. People do not do violence to others because they do not want violence done to them. They forgive wrongs because they also have wronged and wish to be forgiven.

Which hypothetical world do you think Jesus envisionned for Man?

Well, I prefer the Chips of Love over the Pickles of Sin. You pick and choose as well as any of us, whether you can see it or not. You concentrate on the fire and brimstone parts all the time. To me, those are part of “the ridiculous edifice of religion” that’s been built upon and around the very simple teachings of love and forgiveness.

Me, I don’t even want to go to the cafeteria; it’s all useless artifice. What I do agree with, though, is what Jesus taught, time and again, about love and forgiveness. That’s the only part worth knowing in all that sham. It’s simply unfortunate that for a large portion of self-described “Christians,” it’s the part they forget about.

187

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Since Jesus is God (John 1:1), He wrote the entire Bible and thus what the Bible teaches is what Jesus teaches.[/quote]

If that was true, the Bible would consist of one chapter “The Book of God” and have no known human author. If God could produce a human son; surely he could write a book Himself?

Since that’s not the case, your view on the Bible is simply your opinion of it and no more or less valid than someone else who sees the Bible as “inspired” to man by God (with possible errors), or other who see it (as I do) as a work entirely of man (with many errors and contradicions throughout).

Your view is convenient, though, it allows you to put just about any words you want in Jesus’ mouth even if He’s never said them. I guess you know better than He did and you’re qualified to correct Him.

188

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
magick62d wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Why do you all feed into this? 6 pages? Again? I feel sorry for contributing again myself, but damn, he got you…again.

Agreed. We are dealing with someone who bases his arguements on a book that has been mistranslated many times over,and dissected and put together by a power hungry emperor,Constantine to serve his political ambitions. The Mayans have made more accurate predictions than those found in the “bible”.This is also someone who totally disregards the proven fossil record in terms of how long mankind has been here. Let him have his fantasies,ignorance is bliss. Thanks for the entertainment though Stevio!

So you throw some written excrement on here and we are supposed to believe it?

Please get you facts straight. Constatine didn’t write the Bible. Most of the Bible – the Old Testament – was transmitted down through the ages by the Jewish Scribes. The accuracy of these texts can be seen by studying the Dead Sea Scrolls. Have you every done that?

Mistranslations? Prove your point. What actual hard facts do you have when you sling this?

The Mayans are more accurate. Name one prediction in the Mayan whatever that proves your point.

“Proven fossil record.” I love this. Proven about what? You mean you have knowledge of intermediate forms that have been found? Could you produce them or at least where I can go and see an “ape-man” – you know part ape and part human.

You see, my friend, you sling the excrement in a vain attempt to refute Biblical truth, by making stuff up that you think people with IQ’s under 100 will swallow. The fact is that you have no facts and that you are basically lying.
[/quote]

Careful stevio,is that wrath I detect in your tone? I did not say Constantine wrote the “bible”. I said he dissected it. He threw away the parts that did’nt suit him,around 72 texts,some of which were discovered in the Nag Hammadi digs in Egypt.

As for the translations,there is a big difference in the original Aramaic in comparison to the good ole king James version. In regards to the fossil record,where did all those dinasaur bones come from? Don’t recall reading about any T-rex or Brontosaurus being on Noah’s ark!

The Mayan and Hopi texts are available for you to read for yourself if you can pull your head out of your ass long enough to do so. The only excrement and lies being thrown around here are from you with your message of fear and hate.

189

Having a shifty over the responses Steve has given, and including his replies to the loaded ones I threw at him, I am pretty sure is not a teacher, and is in the age group of 19-22, maybe suffers from some kind of illness (physical) he’s had since childhood or born with, maybe a disability and has undergone great emotional trauma.

I don’t think a Rorschach inkblot test would tell anyone much. I reckon long term observation and therapy might help though.

190

[quote]jasonigor wrote:
Having a shifty over the responses Steve has given, and including his replies to the loaded ones I threw at him, I am pretty sure is not a teacher, and is in the age group of 19-22, maybe suffers from some kind of illness (physical) he’s had since childhood or born with, maybe a disability and has undergone great emotional trauma.

I don’t think a Rorschach inkblot test would tell anyone much. I reckon long term observation and therapy might help though.[/quote]

I’m no fan of Steveo to be sure. But I’ve read a few of your posts and the fact that you many times try to give Psycological advice on a message to people you don’t know means your a douche bag. And if you’re just using it to insult people that means you are even a bigger douche bag.

No shit, I think you are the one with the mental problems …

191

pookie owns this thread. Well written, my friend.

192

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
jasonigor wrote:
Having a shifty over the responses Steve has given, and including his replies to the loaded ones I threw at him, I am pretty sure is not a teacher, and is in the age group of 19-22, maybe suffers from some kind of illness (physical) he’s had since childhood or born with, maybe a disability and has undergone great emotional trauma.

I don’t think a Rorschach inkblot test would tell anyone much. I reckon long term observation and therapy might help though.

I’m no fan of Steveo to be sure. But I’ve read a few of your posts and the fact that you many times try to give Psycological advice on a message to people you don’t know means your a douche bag. And if you’re just using it to insult people that means you are even a bigger douche bag.

No shit, I think you are the one with the mental problems …

[/quote]

In my profession, I’m past caring what people think, mores the point, you don’t know me. Do me a favor, and fuck off ?!

193

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

Since Jesus is God (John 1:1), He wrote the entire Bible and thus what the Bible teaches is what Jesus teaches.

The fact that Jesus is merciful and there are verses to back that up, i totally agree. BUT…

Jesus is also a God of judgment, of which I quoted a few verses that you conveniently disregarded.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life…”

“…ye must be born-again to see the Kingdom of God [i.e. go to Heaven]…”

“…there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth…”

“…cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkenss…”

There are many many many more. In fact, if you study the Bible a bit more carefully you will see that Jesus taught more about Hell then any other single person in the Word of God. He taught more about Hell than Heaven because in His love and mercy He doesn’t want anyone to perish!

Poookie, these are Biblical facts. You can pick and choose your verses, but God’s Word is not a cafeteria, where you can have the chips, but not the pickle. YOu have to take it all at the same time or you misuse God’s Word and create a God of your own imagination. That violates the 1st Commandment of God as well.
[/quote]

You didn’t tell Pookie to bow or burn. He’ll feel left out. :wink:

Steve, can I give you an analogy to illustrate what’s wrong with your interpretation?

President Lincoln used to make rascist jokes. We don’t condemn him because of the times he lived in. It was a different culture and time, wherein such jokes were common.

Well, in the same way, we have to look at the Bible in ITS historical context. Suppose God did write it. WHO WAS HE WRITING IT FOR? Very few people could read or write, usually just the local rabbi. The Bible is a simplified message for simple people. It has plots and twists and drama to hold their attention. In so doing, God didn’t worry about errors (He may have put them in there to make us think).

So, when you see stuff about burning in a pit and all that, realize that this is God’s way of getting sheperds and farmers to adhere to the message. You can’t talk to them logically as they simply wouldn’t follow that.

May God bless each and every one on T-Nation (even Pookie :wink: .

194

[quote]jasonigor wrote:

In my profession, I’m past caring what people think, mores the point, you don’t know me. Do me a favor, and fuck off ?!

[/quote]

Ha, like you KNOW all the people that you analyze on the internet.

In your “profession” of psychoanalyzing people on the internet?

More of your douchebaggery.

LOL CLOWN.

195

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
jasonigor wrote:

In my profession, I’m past caring what people think, mores the point, you don’t know me. Do me a favor, and fuck off ?!

Ha, like you KNOW all the people that you analyze on the internet.

In your “profession” of psychoanalyzing people on the internet?

More of your douchebaggery.

LOL CLOWN.

[/quote]

Actually yes, I was doing a mini study in internet behaviour. Sure you do your own work studies too…behind the counter at Burger King.

196

[quote]jasonigor wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
jasonigor wrote:

In my profession, I’m past caring what people think, mores the point, you don’t know me. Do me a favor, and fuck off ?!

Ha, like you KNOW all the people that you analyze on the internet.

In your “profession” of psychoanalyzing people on the internet?

More of your douchebaggery.

LOL CLOWN.

Actually yes, I was doing a mini study in internet behaviour. Sure you do your own work studies too…behind the counter at Burger King.[/quote]

Are part of your work studies insulting people on Internet message boards?

You’re a fraud and a joke around here.

I repeat: DOUCHE BAG.

197

“Bow or Burn”

(Luke 9:53-56) “And they (unbelievers) did not receive him (Jesus)…And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them…But he (Jesus) turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them…”

We as true believing christians must be careful that our outward loyalty and zeal for Christ do not conceal a spirit of revenge or violence against the unsaved.

(Ephesians 4:1-2) “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forebearing one another in love.”

(II Timothy 2:24-25) “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”

We are to deal with the unsaved as stated in (I Peter 3:15) “…with meekness and fear:”

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[quote]pookie wrote:
Those are the words of Paul, not Jesus. In my view, Paul was the first to realize that there was power and respect to be had by lording his “divine authority” over others. Yes, I know, you disagree. Still, Jesus Himself never said that.[/quote]

I’ve tried to suggest the same to Steveo time and time again, but he conviently ignores the fact that the Bible contains the writings of multiple men, each colored by their own perceptions and purposes.

The men around Jesus were just men, and they have all the faults and frailties that men today have. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, does Jesus say some of the things that Paul or others have said, when they mangle his message in order to reach the people they are talking to.

Neither is there any mention in the Bible about the special oratory or literary capabilities of his followers, just that they are plain men who chose to follow Jesus and learn what they could from him.

It’s sad to see the messages of Jesus twisted within the Bible itself. His teachings are so simple… and it would do so much good if people could live them, whether or not they were religious.

I think some of the problems come about because of the way that phrases and speech change over time. The way ancient things, such as books, anthems, states, conventions take on a mystical larger than life importances, though they were never meant to.

Steveo, it’s really funny, but you are in fact not spreading the word of Jesus, you are spreading your interpretation of the words of those that spoke their interpretations of his words. I have not once seen you offer anything but “threats” with a holier than thou attitude.

There are many many verses in the Bible, spoken by Jesus (not just one of his followers who really don’t have anything important to say on their own) that place you on shaky ground indeed with the path you have been following.

Once again, I’d seriously suggest you think deeply about the concepts of idolatry, theft and trespass. I am sure many of us that you have condemned would be allowed to laugh at you from heaven if you didn’t make it in.

199

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’ve tried to suggest the same to Steveo time and time again, but he conviently ignores the fact that the Bible contains the writings of multiple men, each colored by their own perceptions and purposes.[/quote]

That’s why I’ve been concentrating on Jesus’ teachings and not the rest of the Bible. Interestingly, we have 4 gospels telling the same story and being in fairly good agreement with one another. No other book of the Bible has that peculiarity. (Ok, there are two Genesis and at least three versions of the Commandments, but it’s not the same.)

The base message is very simple. I don’t understand people’s fascination with the rest of it. Sometimes it seems like the message is so simple, that people need more and then they get lost in interpreting the details.

It’d be great if they’d put in the same effort in living the message.

[quote]Neither is there any mention in the Bible about the special oratory or literary capabilities of his followers, just that they are plain men who chose to follow Jesus and learn what they could from him.

It’s sad to see the messages of Jesus twisted within the Bible itself. His teachings are so simple… and it would do so much good if people could live them, whether or not they were religious.[/quote]

Exactly.

200

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am sure many of us that you have condemned would be allowed to laugh at you from heaven if you didn’t make it in.[/quote]

Too much schadenfreude in these threads.

201

To all,

I am trying to adhere to what was the consensus that I not post on this forum, but move these types of discussions to the “off topic” forum. I had requested that the mods move these threads.

However, I will reply if the “field day” continues as you guys continue to post even though it was all of you who were condeming these threads. You cannot have it both ways.

Either do what you said, and ignore the thread until it moves, or we will continue with these discussion, but be it known that I am not the cause of this.

Perhaps, you should consider yourselves as trolls.