Jesus - Islam Perspective

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

If it’s good, I think it came from God.

[/quote]

Because it’s alway so perfectly clear what is “good” and “bad.”

[/quote]

I know you think you’re being clever here, but I happen to think it’s very clear. If you don’t, why don’t you drop the cloak of cleverness and give us an example?[/quote]

This is silly. It shouldn’t need to be argued that “good” and “bad” are often situational, relative, and difficult to judge at any given time.

But ok, let’s play some: My younger brother got picked on and bullied to no end in jr. high school. Damn near got suicidal over it. Was that “good” from God, or bad?[/quote]

Playing is what you’re doing.

Perhaps your internal compass is “situational, relative and difficult to judge at any given time”.

How can being picked on and bullied be “good”? Do you have a point here or will you continue in your failure-to-state construct?[/quote]

Being picked on and bullied spurred him to seek out the martial arts, which ultimately changed him and his life completely. Today he’s full of confidence, happy and earning 6 figures. Much better off than he would have been without that ordeal.

Getting picked on is literally the best thing that ever happened to him.

Then again, I guess if he’d ended up in some psych ward, I’d be saying how terrible it was that it happened…

I could go on and on with similar instances of (apparent) “bad = good = bad.” For you to think that you know what in life is “good” (and therefore “of God”) is pretty arrogant. Which, honestly, is no surprise.

PS Unlike some others here, I realize that you are always “right,” and so am done with this discussion. Oh, just FYI, I’m not really much of a believer myself.[/quote]

It’s not that I’m always right but if you think that’s a good argument in support of mankind’s inability to tell “good” from “bad” well then I’m sorry I don’t think you made a compelling argument. You’re confusing cause and effect which is a fallacious argument construct. There is no arguing that bullying someone is wrong. Assuming that something positive came from it, does not mean that bullying is not good. People survive and even thrive under all kinds of stressors - we are very malleable and resilient.

I just don’t think your argument is a good one. I still maintain I can tell “good” from “bad”. And I’m willing to be “wrong” if you can provide a good rebuttal.

202

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< If it’s good, I dare say it’s His “purpose and power”. >>>[/quote]I say (like he does) that if it’s His purpose and power then it’s good. Eternal difference. You have quite typically created a god who looks and acts pretty much like you and is hence in your own image.
Proverbs 16:25

[quote]There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.[/quote]This passage in the first chapter of the first epistle of the apostle Paul to the church which was at Corinth has your name all over it. [quote]18-For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19-For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22-For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23-but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25-Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.[/quote][/quote]

I appreciate your effort. I don’t think any further dialogue would be fruitful.

204

[quote]Chushin wrote:

So is killing someone “good” or “bad?”[/quote]

Taking someone’s life is always bad. I know where you’re going with this and it’s irrelevant. You’re going to engage in relativism, sense of justice, etc. It matters not what construct you appeal to in your inevitable retort to me, my answer will always be the same - the act of killing is not “good”. You’re going to want to introduce variables to that question - and I’d simply retort the Bible gives no such guidance as to the variables.

Taking another human life is bad, period - whether justified or not.

Maybe you want to ask me if taking a human life is ever forgivable or justified? Although that’s changing the subject, it’s inevitably where you’re going with this “argument” and therefore not quite to the point of “good” and “bad”.

205

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

So is killing someone “good” or “bad?”[/quote]

Taking someone’s life is always bad. I know where you’re going with this and it’s irrelevant. You’re going to engage in relativism, sense of justice, etc. It matters not what construct you appeal to in your inevitable retort to me, my answer will always be the same - the act of killing is not “good”. You’re going to want to introduce variables to that question - and I’d simply retort the Bible gives no such guidance as to the variables.

Taking another human life is bad, period - whether justified or not.

Maybe you want to ask me if taking a human life is ever forgivable or justified? Although that’s changing the subject, it’s inevitably where you’re going with this “argument” and therefore not quite to the point of “good” and “bad”. [/quote]

I have found the rationalization of the Bible stating “thou shall not murder” instead of “thou shall not kill”, productive in dealing with rookies who harbour religious objections to killing. In this aspect, interpretation has served well.

207

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

So is killing someone “good” or “bad?”[/quote]

Taking someone’s life is always bad. I know where you’re going with this and it’s irrelevant. You’re going to engage in relativism, sense of justice, etc. It matters not what construct you appeal to in your inevitable retort to me, my answer will always be the same - the act of killing is not “good”. You’re going to want to introduce variables to that question - and I’d simply retort the Bible gives no such guidance as to the variables.

Taking another human life is bad, period - whether justified or not.

Maybe you want to ask me if taking a human life is ever forgivable or justified? Although that’s changing the subject, it’s inevitably where you’re going with this “argument” and therefore not quite to the point of “good” and “bad”. [/quote]

Like I said, you’re right.[/quote]

Now that’s brilliant!!

Don’t be pissy with me because you’re constructing a poor argument. You implied (you didn’t even state a claim to begin with, you implied it) that we cannot distinguish “good” from “bad”. And then in support of this unstated claim, you offered an example of “cause and effect” wherein the “cause” was indisputably “bad”.

If you don’t want to state your claim and provide a reasoned argument, then don’t.

208

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Most of your hatred is based on a building. >>>[/quote]Tiribulus wrote a few days ago:[quote]<<< the theology of that church and the walking deadness of her members provided plenty of evidence of her anti Christian nature without resorting to playing the pedo/cover up card. >>>[/quote]pat wrote:[quote]<<< So what did he say ‘Good’ is?[/quote]He didn’t, but it won’t be what God, who alone has that prerogative says it is so what difference does it make? That is good which reflects His purpose and power and thereby advances His kingdom and glory. Created man, especially fallen, sinful created man, is breathtakingly ill equipped to utter so much as a single syllable in that regard on purpose from his own mind and being.

[/quote]

When I deem something “good” because it is in harmony with something inside me so intrinsically and instinctively knowing what “good” is, isn’t that not from my own mind and being but from that divine spark that you would label the Holy Ghost?

Are you that caught up on labels, words, doctrines that is obfuscates the obvious truth?

If it’s good, I dare say it’s His “purpose and power”. You find it in a book, and surrender blind faith to it. I look around, and within, and I can find it just fine. Shhhh. Stop reading, quoting and preaching. Look around. You might just see it! :slight_smile: Weren’t you yourself doing some good in your city? [/quote]

All attacks and other pettiness aside, I ask this sincerely: Good is, basically, what you decide it is? Let me know if I’m misdefining your position. If I’m not, then:

What happens when someone else’s “good” conflicts with your own?

209

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Most of your hatred is based on a building. >>>[/quote]Tiribulus wrote a few days ago:[quote]<<< the theology of that church and the walking deadness of her members provided plenty of evidence of her anti Christian nature without resorting to playing the pedo/cover up card. >>>[/quote]pat wrote:[quote]<<< So what did he say ‘Good’ is?[/quote]He didn’t, but it won’t be what God, who alone has that prerogative says it is so what difference does it make? That is good which reflects His purpose and power and thereby advances His kingdom and glory. Created man, especially fallen, sinful created man, is breathtakingly ill equipped to utter so much as a single syllable in that regard on purpose from his own mind and being.

[/quote]

When I deem something “good” because it is in harmony with something inside me so intrinsically and instinctively knowing what “good” is, isn’t that not from my own mind and being but from that divine spark that you would label the Holy Ghost?

Are you that caught up on labels, words, doctrines that is obfuscates the obvious truth?

If it’s good, I dare say it’s His “purpose and power”. You find it in a book, and surrender blind faith to it. I look around, and within, and I can find it just fine. Shhhh. Stop reading, quoting and preaching. Look around. You might just see it! :slight_smile: Weren’t you yourself doing some good in your city? [/quote]

All attacks and other pettiness aside, I ask this sincerely: Good is, basically, what you decide it is? Let me know if I’m misdefining your position. If I’m not, then:

What happens when someone else’s “good” conflicts with your own? [/quote]

Good is not what I decide it is. Are you confusing “good” with “morality”. Because we both know, morality is relative to culture, time, and place. What’s moral here is not what is moral where you currently reside.

I’m not even claiming “I” know what “good” is - I claim to “know” by virtue of that spark (no matter what you want to call it - you might claim it the Holy Ghost) that I think that resides in each of us.

Yes, I think I know good when I see it. Do you care to give a better rebuttal than your predecessor? State a claim, and support it. Don’t argue by question; support your claim and give us an example of when two truly “goods” are in conflict.

210

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Most of your hatred is based on a building. >>>[/quote]Tiribulus wrote a few days ago:[quote]<<< the theology of that church and the walking deadness of her members provided plenty of evidence of her anti Christian nature without resorting to playing the pedo/cover up card. >>>[/quote]pat wrote:[quote]<<< So what did he say ‘Good’ is?[/quote]He didn’t, but it won’t be what God, who alone has that prerogative says it is so what difference does it make? That is good which reflects His purpose and power and thereby advances His kingdom and glory. Created man, especially fallen, sinful created man, is breathtakingly ill equipped to utter so much as a single syllable in that regard on purpose from his own mind and being.

[/quote]

“the theology of that church and the walking deadness of her members provided plenty of evidence of her anti Christian nature without resorting to playing the pedo/cover up card.” ← Where is your evidence. You saying it doesn’t make it so, at all. I want concrete examples, because I believe your hatred of us to be purely emotive, no facts.

"He didn’t, but it won’t be what God, who alone has that prerogative says it is so what difference does it make? That is good which reflects His purpose and power and thereby advances His kingdom and glory. Created man, especially fallen, sinful created man, is breathtakingly ill equipped to utter so much as a single syllable in that regard on purpose from his own mind and being. " ← this is garbage. The word ‘Good’ means something, what is it? I am not asking where it’s from, I am asking what it is?..Trigger avoidance technique now.

213

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Most of your hatred is based on a building. >>>[/quote]Tiribulus wrote a few days ago:[quote]<<< the theology of that church and the walking deadness of her members provided plenty of evidence of her anti Christian nature without resorting to playing the pedo/cover up card. >>>[/quote]pat wrote:[quote]<<< So what did he say ‘Good’ is?[/quote]He didn’t, but it won’t be what God, who alone has that prerogative says it is so what difference does it make? That is good which reflects His purpose and power and thereby advances His kingdom and glory. Created man, especially fallen, sinful created man, is breathtakingly ill equipped to utter so much as a single syllable in that regard on purpose from his own mind and being.

[/quote]

When I deem something “good” because it is in harmony with something inside me so intrinsically and instinctively knowing what “good” is, isn’t that not from my own mind and being but from that divine spark that you would label the Holy Ghost?

Are you that caught up on labels, words, doctrines that is obfuscates the obvious truth?

If it’s good, I dare say it’s His “purpose and power”. You find it in a book, and surrender blind faith to it. I look around, and within, and I can find it just fine. Shhhh. Stop reading, quoting and preaching. Look around. You might just see it! :slight_smile: Weren’t you yourself doing some good in your city? [/quote]

All attacks and other pettiness aside, I ask this sincerely: Good is, basically, what you decide it is? Let me know if I’m misdefining your position. If I’m not, then:

What happens when someone else’s “good” conflicts with your own? [/quote]

Good is not what I decide it is. Are you confusing “good” with “morality”. Because we both know, morality is relative to culture, time, and place. What’s moral here is not what is moral where you currently reside.

I’m not even claiming “I” know what “good” is - I claim to “know” by virtue of that spark (no matter what you want to call it - you might claim it the Holy Ghost) that I think that resides in each of us.

Yes, I think I know good when I see it. Do you care to give a better rebuttal than your predecessor? State a claim, and support it. Don’t argue by question; support your claim and give us an example of when two truly “goods” are in conflict. [/quote]

Wait wait wait.

I would certainly disagree that morality is relative to culture, or relative in any way whatsoever.

But before going there, I would like to know what the difference is that you find between morality and good. I’m not talking about values. I’m talking about morals.

214

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Most of your hatred is based on a building. >>>[/quote]Tiribulus wrote a few days ago:[quote]<<< the theology of that church and the walking deadness of her members provided plenty of evidence of her anti Christian nature without resorting to playing the pedo/cover up card. >>>[/quote]pat wrote:[quote]<<< So what did he say ‘Good’ is?[/quote]He didn’t, but it won’t be what God, who alone has that prerogative says it is so what difference does it make? That is good which reflects His purpose and power and thereby advances His kingdom and glory. Created man, especially fallen, sinful created man, is breathtakingly ill equipped to utter so much as a single syllable in that regard on purpose from his own mind and being.

[/quote]

When I deem something “good” because it is in harmony with something inside me so intrinsically and instinctively knowing what “good” is, isn’t that not from my own mind and being but from that divine spark that you would label the Holy Ghost?

Are you that caught up on labels, words, doctrines that is obfuscates the obvious truth?

If it’s good, I dare say it’s His “purpose and power”. You find it in a book, and surrender blind faith to it. I look around, and within, and I can find it just fine. Shhhh. Stop reading, quoting and preaching. Look around. You might just see it! :slight_smile: Weren’t you yourself doing some good in your city? [/quote]

All attacks and other pettiness aside, I ask this sincerely: Good is, basically, what you decide it is? Let me know if I’m misdefining your position. If I’m not, then:

What happens when someone else’s “good” conflicts with your own? [/quote]

Good is not what I decide it is. Are you confusing “good” with “morality”. Because we both know, morality is relative to culture, time, and place. What’s moral here is not what is moral where you currently reside.

I’m not even claiming “I” know what “good” is - I claim to “know” by virtue of that spark (no matter what you want to call it - you might claim it the Holy Ghost) that I think that resides in each of us.

Yes, I think I know good when I see it. Do you care to give a better rebuttal than your predecessor? State a claim, and support it. Don’t argue by question; support your claim and give us an example of when two truly “goods” are in conflict. [/quote]

Wait wait wait.

I would certainly disagree that morality is relative to culture, or relative in any way whatsoever.

But before going there, I would like to know what the difference is that you find between morality and good. I’m not talking about values. I’m talking about morals.

[/quote]

First of all, you haven’t stated a claim. You’re just asking questions. Make a claim or provide a reasoned retort to my claim that I can tell good from bad.

I know you want to change the subject, but morality IS temporal. I’ll give you a brief example. You’re Christian correct? In the OT, girls as young as 3 were married off. Mary was thought to be 12-14 when she became pregnant. This was the norm of the day. Fast forward to 2011 and we wouldn’t dream allow an adult man to legally mate with a 14 year old (in this country - which brings me to my next point). Not only is morality temporal, it is geographical and cultural. I believe the lowest age of consent in the US is about 16, maybe 15 and usually those lower numbers have “modifiers” with respect to the difference with the older partner or marriage and such. There are numerous countries and territories in the world where the age of consent is lower - as low as 12.

The qualified term “morality” “in its “descriptive” sense, morality refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores that distinguish between right and wrong in the human society.”

You could attempt to argue that morality is not relative, to culture or otherwise, but by it’s very definition, you’d be wrong sir.

So let’s put aside this silly Q&A and have you make a claim or rebut mine. I say I can distinguish good from evil by that divine spark that I believe resides in us all. Rebut it.

215

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Wait wait wait.

I would certainly disagree that morality is relative to culture, or relative in any way whatsoever.

But before going there, I would like to know what the difference is that you find between morality and good. I’m not talking about values. I’m talking about morals.

[/quote]

And at the risk of further “changing the subject” I will answer your final question, but I’d ask that you get back on track.

I already provided you with the definition of morality and morality is temporal, cultural, etc. It’s not my opinion, it’s the meaning of the word. So, I’ve already distinguished morality for you.

What is good?

Love is good. Humbleness is good. Grace is good. Fidelity is good. Loyalty is good.

Do you want or need me to continue? I’m really interested if you’re ever willing to concede even the smallest point. It’s one thing to believe you need the guidance of religion to distinguish between good and evil. It’s quite another to argue with me that morality is not relative and to otherwise confuse the issue.

216

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[
That the Bishops of the Catholic Church wrote the books in the Bible. Then later canonized it around 400 A.D.

[/quote]

I suggest you revisit this claim starting with:

The list was compiled by the bishops of the Catholic Church.

http://www.catholicbasictraining.com/apologetics/coursetexts/1l.htm

Your claim above is patently false and intentionally misleading. Or, you simply misspoke.[/quote]

Actually it’s not, from the website, “written by an apostle or someone who was reporting the words of an apostle.” An Apostle is an ordained Bishop. That is why Bishops in the Catholic Church have the powers and authority that comes with Apostolic (see the word Apostle in there) succession, or the powers and authority that Jesus ordained the Apostles. Apostolic succession means that they can trace their ordination to the original Apostles.

Apostles were Bishops. They have the powers of Bishops, they did what Bishops do, they had authority as Bishops do.

Walk like a duck, talk like a duck, look like a duck, it’s a duck.

“The list was compiled by the bishops of the Catholic Church.”

I’m not sure how it is false or misleading. [/quote]

My answer to that is simply:

http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-pro-tradition-refuted-succession-2-timothy-2-2.htm

See, even claimed (self serving) apostolic succession is disputed? Do you see where we keep going with this??[/quote]

Lol, I’m sorry if I don’t take Bible.ca very seriously.

217

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
“St. Faustus, a fifth century bishop writes, “Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since–as already it has been often proved–these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of lot, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.””[/quote]

Um…he’s talking about corrupted manuscripts, not what the faithful use. Lol. [/quote]

The Church’s corrupted manuscripts. LOL[/quote]

The scholar’s would have to disagree with you, they point to those who attempted to distort scripture for their profit.

218

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:More for Chris:http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm[/quote]Just can’t escape the dispensationalists. Hardcore Arminian dispensationalists this time. Lord help us. That site is well meaning and does have some good stuff, but wouldn’t be my pick for truth about catholicism. You won’t surprise Chris or any other knowledgeable Catholic with this. They have an answer satisfactory to themselves for absolutely everything. Yes, just like me.
[/quote]

I just picked one random. There are 5 million hits for “false catholic doctrine”. Would you like me to reference them all?[/quote]

I guess the phrase, “there is a thousand lies, but one truth” is a little humble in this instance. Most of those arguments are usually fallacious. It’s not hard to make fallacious arguments against the Catholic faith, after all we do have such a deep faith and it may be difficult for some to understand it or easy to take part of it and pull it out of context.

219

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:More for Chris:http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm[/quote]Just can’t escape the dispensationalists. Hardcore Arminian dispensationalists this time. Lord help us. That site is well meaning and does have some good stuff, but wouldn’t be my pick for truth about catholicism. You won’t surprise Chris or any other knowledgeable Catholic with this. They have an answer satisfactory to themselves for absolutely everything. Yes, just like me.
[/quote]

I just picked one random. There are 5 million hits for “false catholic doctrine”. Would you like me to reference them all?[/quote]I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but nobody on this site hates the Catholic church more than I do for a cloud piercing mountain of reasons ranging from the simply biblical to the foundational and epistemological (also biblical). My point is that you could find a biblical prophecy wherein God Himself plainly declares the address of the vatican, the number of stolen bricks in her edifice and naming the pope by name, birthday and DNA as abominations in His sight and they will find a way around it. The scriptures carry no weight whatsoever unless predigested and spoon fed by their own “magesterium”.
[/quote]

Yeah, except this is a fallacious argument since the Bible does no such thing, G-d loves the Catholic Church, it is his Body, it is his Bride. Jesus established it himself, and you should really not set yourself against your Mother.

220

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Trying to apply “logical and compelling” to Christianity?

Good luck with that. [/quote]

Or Islam. Or any other religion.[/quote]

Sounds of haters.[/quote]

Faith and logic don’t mix. Jesus himself would agree.[/quote]

Prove it.