Zeb, Hedo,
Excellent posts.
Let me make it crystal clear: If Rove is guilty of compromising National Security, he should be prosecuted and fired.
If he is innocent of wrongdoing, I hope clowns like e-hater will apologize for calling him a “criminal.”
Thanks,
JeffR
Jeez zeb, that was weak. Even for you.
If this is true then Rove knowingly broke the law and then lied about it. Bad, bad move for a person in his position, and he should pay for it.
Oh, am I detecting a double standard? Somehow Clinton lied and was the villian of the century.
Now, apparently, Rove has lied about a national security issue. However, this transgression is in comparison obviously a minor issue.
Why are you hypocrites now clamoring for calm and patience instead of getting to the root of the matter.
Finally, sure, this is an investigation that is currently in progress. However, as some of the information has been made public, we can certainly form an opinion about what has happened by looking at that evidence and reading statements made by Rove’s lawyer.
You realize that if this pans out it will be a strong piece of evidence showing the Bush (or cronies) wanted a war and exerted pressure throughout the government to support his desire, to the point of lying about matters of national security.
This is a much bigger issue than simply whether or not Rove gets fired. It points to a method of “management” employed by the Bush administration since day one, which the cheerleaders have been entirely blind to.
If true, it is not the proper way to run a country… influence peddling, pressuring independent agencies to conform to adminstration goals, rewriting scientific reports, and so on. This type of government sounds like the mob.
Look Bugsy, you either say that Saddam has WMD’s or we’ll out your family, see? Find evidence that global warming doesn’t exist or we’ll remove your funding, see?
Bush is a thug, surrounded by thugs, who have wrapped themselves in virtue and pulled the wool over your eyes because you have been afraid of terrorism.
If true, you have cronies and thugs and rich people running the country for their own ends… nice setup you have there.
Maybe it is time for the cheerleading to stop and for leaders to be held accountable for their actions. Bush is simply a man, filled with pride and greed like any other human. He’s got buddies and loyalties like any other man. Keep your eyes open and treat him like Clinton, don’t let him get away with anything!
There seems to be a pattern when a politician gets in trouble.
If he is a democrat accused of misconduct, he is attacked by the conservative side. This is understandable because it is simple politics. His own party launches a counter-offensive and tries to hide blame.
If he is a republican accused of misconduct the democrats attack. Again, this is understandable.
The conservatives generally do something curious. Rather than deny and counter-attack ala the democrats, they try to wait until the facts come in and any investigation is complete before making a decision to jettison the guy. This is clearly the best way to handle it for the good of the country.
If Rove did it he should be shit-canned and prosecuted.
If he did not do it the liberals should shut the hell up.
Either way we should wait and see.
It is quite likely he did it. My suspicion is Bush will let him step aside gracefully. I think this is a mistake.
Bush also made a mistake when he let Tenent step aside gracefully. Tenent should have been publically fired for his grosss incompetence.
I
vroom, to compare Clinton to Bush on national security issues (our nation, not yours) is silly.
Clinton and Gore took bribes to sell sophisticated missle targeting systems to China.
Clinton paid money to North Korea while they built nukes under his nose.
While leaking a CIA agents name is a serious issue you should be more careful with your comparisons.
I hold no illusions about Bush and his administration. They can be just as dirty as any other presidential administration.
I’m not convinced of this. I think both sides generally do the duck and run. This thing was squashed for a long time, until the reporters were forced to release information or serve jail time.
I also think both sides bring out the attack dogs very early…
Realizing that both parties are playing the same games and that you can’t blame those damned “democrats” or those damned “republicans” for all the ills of the world would be a good step.
[quote]Clinton and Gore took bribes to sell sophisticated missle targeting systems to China.
Clinton paid money to North Korea while they built nukes under his nose.[/quote]
You are now simply issuing talking points. The issues in question are very complex compared to Rove leaking the identity of a CIA operative. Money has been an instrument of diplomacy and foreign policy for centuries and remains such an instrument under the Bush administration.
Those two round things on your face, they are called eyes, you might want to try opening them once in a while.
By the way, to go back a post or two, where is the criminal investigation into this bribery matter? Don’t we have to wait until the trial is conducted to convict anyone of this? I thought you were arguing that republicans were different in this manner?
[quote]hedo wrote:
Clinton will go to jail before Rove does.[/quote]
I never insinuated jail but Rove is the culprit and McClellan and Bush lied.
…but, but…Clinton…
ROTHFLMFAO!
Yeah, Clinton is relevant to this discussion.
Speaking of democrats versus republicans, I’m seeing a pattern… republicans like to justify improper actions by pointing out that other people have done improper things.
We don’t behead our prisoners, so obviously there is nothing to talk about.
Hey, war is hell, so too bad, who cares about what happens.
Clinton did X, so stop talking about Bush and his cronies.
Today’s post was brought to you by the letter D and the word DIVERSION. Can you say DIVERSIONARY TACTICS boys and girls? I knew you could!
Another blurblet…
It was McClellan who provided the previous assurances about no role for Rove, but he refused to repeat those assurances Monday.
“Did Karl Rove commit a crime?” a reporter asked McClellan.
“This is a question relating to an ongoing investigation,” McClellan replied.
McClellan gave the same answer when asked whether President Bush has confidence in Rove, the architect of the president’s successful political campaigns.
The investigation was ongoing in 2003 when McClellan assured the public Rove wasn’t involved, a reporter pointed out, but the spokesman refused to elaborate.
In September and October 2003, McClellan said he had spoken directly with Rove about the matter and that “he was not involved” in leaking Plame’s identity to the news media. McClellan said at the time: “The president knows that Karl Rove wasn’t involved,” “It was a ridiculous suggestion” and “It’s not true.”
Rove’s own public denials at the time and since have been more narrowly worded: “I didn’t know her name and didn’t leak her name,” Rove said last year.
Democrats pressed Bush to act.
“The White House promised if anyone was involved in the Valerie Plame affair, they would no longer be in this administration,” said Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. “I trust they will follow through on this pledge. If these allegations are true, this rises above politics and is about our national security.”
Democratic consultant Paul Begala, appearing on ABC’s “Good Morning America” Tuesday, said Rove has both a legal problem and a political problem.
He said the legal issue should be resolved by the grand jury. Begala also said the White House has a political problem because “people are going to look at this crowd and say, Gee, we can’t trust a thing they say after the WMD (weapons of mass destruction) controversy.'”
vroom, All I hear from the republicans is let the investigation take it’s course before calling for someones head.
He may well be guilty. Lets find out first before we crucify him based on one email from Newsweek.
I heard the press conference with McClellan. Talk about a bunch of partisan attack dogs. The press asked him the same question about 30 times as if McClellan was the guilty party.
Anyone who hears that press conference cannot deny the bias of the mainstream media. It as if they were a wing of the democratic party.
And I fully understand the implications of leaking a CIA officers name to keep others in line.
This is not a defense of Karl Roves alleged actions. I am simply pointing out he deserves a defense.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Clinton and Gore took bribes to sell sophisticated missle targeting systems to China.
Clinton paid money to North Korea while they built nukes under his nose.
You are now simply issuing talking points. The issues in question are very complex compared to Rove leaking the identity of a CIA operative. Money has been an instrument of diplomacy and foreign policy for centuries and remains such an instrument under the Bush administration.
Those two round things on your face, they are called eyes, you might want to try opening them once in a while.
By the way, to go back a post or two, where is the criminal investigation into this bribery matter? Don’t we have to wait until the trial is conducted to convict anyone of this? I thought you were arguing that republicans were different in this manner?[/quote]
You brought up the comparison with Clintons record.
And yes Clinton and Gore took bribes from the Chinese. It is a matter of public record. They are called illegal campaign contributions. Politicians have written the law so that it is not the politician that gets charged with the crime, it is his fundraiser. Here is the first one I found after a 1 second search on the internet.
Johnny Chung: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; many visits to Clinton White House and Oval Office with mainland Chinese associates; several illegal campaign contributions, money laundering, tax fraud, and bank fraud guilty pleas (Associated Press: “Democrat Fund-Raiser Pleads Guilty” March 17, 1998)
There are likely many more, but I don’t want to waste my time.
This is a serious issue, but to try to assert Bush is worse on defense than Clinton (the topic YOU brought up) is laughable.
You accuse me of talking points. What a joke. Sometimes I wonder if you even read what you write.
I recognize this issue for what it is. Rove may have got caught playing dirty politics and IF he did he should pay the price. Finish the investigation.
I think you just get pissed when people actually read your rants and point out the clear fallacies.
[quote]mark57 wrote:
Jeez zeb, that was weak. Even for you.
If this is true then Rove knowingly broke the law and then lied about it. Bad, bad move for a person in his position, and he should pay for it.
[/quote]
Hey mark…what part about it is wrong? Liberals want to see Rove removed! Matters not what he did.
Notice “even you” posted “if this is true” he should “pay for it.” We don’t know that it’s true do we? Hence, my original statement is correct!
Someone calling him a “criminal” right now seems rather harsh…at least for a non-liberal huh?
I’m sorry that I hit you with all of that truth all at once…it must have been horrible…lol
Thank you,
Zeb
[quote]vroom wrote:
Democratic consultant Paul Begala, appearing on ABC’s “Good Morning America” Tuesday, said Rove has both a legal problem and a political problem.
He said the legal issue should be resolved by the grand jury. Begala also said the White House has a political problem because “people are going to look at this crowd and say, Gee, we can’t trust a thing they say after the WMD (weapons of mass destruction) controversy.'” [/quote]
And you accuse me of using talking points. You are quoting Paul Begala.
He kind of generates the talking points. Ha!
[quote]I heard the press conference with McClellan. Talk about a bunch of partisan attack dogs. The press asked him the same question about 30 times as if McClellan was the guilty party.
Anyone who hears that press conference cannot deny the bias of the mainstream media. It as if they were a wing of the democratic party.[/quote]
You are so damned blind about the media in this respect.
Do you not remember the same issues happening when Clinton was in office? The media goes where the story is…
Nice try blaming the media, but it isn’t the media’s fault at all.
Zap, you simply have large blinders on, and I’m trying to let you see them.
The fact that illegal campaign contributions were made does not equate to bribery. What you have done is taken something that is known and then converted it into something else… doing so is not in line with your stance on how things should be done.
Don’t you see some hypocracy there?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Bush is a thug, surrounded by thugs, who have wrapped themselves in virtue and pulled the wool over your eyes because you have been afraid of terrorism.[/quote]
Now that’s the vroom I know! The Canadian liberal calling our President a “thug.” “ruffian or gangster.”
Do you feel better now vroom?
Zeb, don’t pull shit out of context… you know damned well I’m not making that as a bald faced statement.
If you don’t, then learn to read.
No, I’m not.
I’m quoting a news article, which itself happens to quote him near the end of it.
Instead of dismissing it because of the source, you should instead perhaps realize that the credibility of the Bush administration is at stake. That is what the quote you acribe to me is pointing out.
Perhaps you and Zeb should go to the same remedial reading classes?
[quote]vroom wrote:
I heard the press conference with McClellan. Talk about a bunch of partisan attack dogs. The press asked him the same question about 30 times as if McClellan was the guilty party.
Anyone who hears that press conference cannot deny the bias of the mainstream media. It as if they were a wing of the democratic party.
You are so damned blind about the media in this respect.
Do you not remember the same issues happening when Clinton was in office? The media goes where the story is…
Nice try blaming the media, but it isn’t the media’s fault at all.
Zap, you simply have large blinders on, and I’m trying to let you see them.
The fact that illegal campaign contributions were made does not equate to bribery. What you have done is taken something that is known and then converted it into something else… doing so is not in line with your stance on how things should be done.
Don’t you see some hypocracy there?[/quote]
Vroom, The MSM did not attack Clinton like a pack of rabid wolves. It was only the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys that did that. There is a difference between reporting and attacking. This is a story worth reporting. McClellan was attacked.
How the hell can you say I have blinders on? I already said it is likely Rove did it and he should probably be fired and prosecuted. I just believe we should have an investigation and a trial before he is shot.
As to Clinton. His campaign took millions illegally from the Chinese and then he allowed the sale of equipment for use in satellites and missle targeting to the Chinese when he was urged not to do so by all the defense agencies.
You are right. There is no connection.
You are a biased fool.
I recognize Rove is likely guilty and believe IF he is he should pay a stiff price.
You defend any and all misdeeds of the left and accuse me of hypocrisy?
I expect this stuff from the schoolboys. They have not had time to learn and understand. Their foolishness is understandable.
There is no bigger fool than an old fool.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb, don’t pull shit out of context… you know damned well I’m not making that as a bald faced statement.
If you don’t, then learn to read.[/quote]
There you go again! More personal insults…oh my vroom…you liberals just don’t get it do you?