Isreal/Lebanon A More Balanced Look

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

The Lebanese government is getting what it deserves. If they really wanted Israel to stop, they would go after Hezbollah themselves. But the government see’s that (to them) it is more important to sacrifice it’s own citizens in the support of terrorism. Does anyone really expect Israel to stop when hundreds of rockets are dropping everyday?

If Lebanon really had more brains than hatred, they would do something about the rocket attacks. Lebanon is the puppet of Syria, Syria is using Lebanon to fight their war without any damage to Syria.

Right now Israeli troops are massing on the border, in Syria their troops are massing on the border and it doesn’t take a genius to figure they are not there to protect Syria. This will get far deeper.

62

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
I can’t believe you LOLed again.[/quote]

Get over the LOL thing already, you say something stupid and I’m going to laugh at you. Get used to it.

[quote]Give me the benefice of doubt.

I am honestly trying to have a civilized discussion with you.[/quote]

Given the two options I gave you, which do you choose? No third option. Make a choice. Then I will assess your honesty.

It is not hard to imagine a situation where you will either have to kill or be killed.

[quote]55 % of the British mandate was given to 6% of the population.

Israelis knew that this was going to cause a lot of hatred and they were prepared to fight.

They chose to accept the hatred in exchange for a homeland.

Israelis are not going away.

Neither are the palestinians.

Therefore they have to find a way to live together.[/quote]

This may be true, but just as it takes two to tango (fight) it takes two to make peace. You can’t make peace on your own if someone is bent on killing you.

[quote]All the fighting has done over the years is aggravate the situation.

You do know for example that the terrorist organisation Hezbollah was created in '82 to fight the Israeli Defense Forces who occupied southern Lebanon until the year 2000?[/quote]

When do we start to let go of the past and look towards a future? At this point can anyone really say who was more wronged? Does anybody really care anymore?

Again, if Hezbollah was created during the invasion, perhaps it should be disbanded after the pullout.

[quote]At this point, Israel was obviously waiting for the Palestinian authority and the Lebanese government to dismantle Hamas and Hezbollah.

You know that for historical reasons both the Lebanese government and the palestinian autority were and are still very weak.

So, unfortunately nothing happened.

Combined with the fact that there were no ongoing negociations, I think Israel was expecting too much too soon.[/quote]

It is possible they expected to much and it is possible that they could not wait indefinitely for Lebanon to progress to the point that rockets were not killing civilians on a daily basis.

I still have not ONCE seen you admit to the ongoing killings on the part of Hezbollah? What is up with that?

[quote]I don’t see it that way.

Israelis are intelligent and have enough ressorces to find other options.
[/quote]

Okay, get ready for it, this is where I laugh at you for being out of touch with the real world.

[quote]
Help the Palestinians develop a democratic country with some sort of economic development : schools, hospitals, work…[/quote]

This is where I laugh again, as you and I both know that an active Hezbollah would surely kidnip or murder Israeli’s that were setting up a system that would attempt to get rid of them.

Perhaps when there is peace, who owns what won’t matter so much? Land doesn’t exactly care who owns it…

You said it.

[quote]Vroom, if you knew me better, I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t say that.

But hey this is just the Internet so you can say whatever you please.

If you knew me better you would also know that I sympathize with Ahmed and Khadija or with David and Sarah who are just in the middle of all this shit.[/quote]

I only hear sympathies coming out of your mouth in one direction, though you purport to sympathize for everyone. When I see you demonstrate empathy and sympathy for both sides, not just blaming one party, then perhaps I’ll believe what you are saying.

63

[quote]mazilla wrote:
yes, unfortunately i was talking to you vroom. the whole it’s ok because they are not targeting civilains on purpose thing. or that sometimes you just gotta kill. would you be saying the same things if somebody was attacking and killing innocent canadians? thats what i meant, sorry for being so vague.[/quote]

Mazilla,

You have left this pretty open. First, it’s not “ok” that people are dying, but I’m not sure it is okay to allow people to fire rockets at Israel on a daily basis, killing innocent civilians either.

What are your thoughts on that? I don’t think you’ve made that explicit in this regard.

Now, it’s hard for me to imagine Canada harboring a terrorist organization launching attacks against another country. However, if my country did so, I would not be surprised if said other country took offense to that.

If I was a civilian, who wasn’t a terrorist or a terrorist supporter, I’d get the fuck out of dodge when that started to happen.

Whether or not I’d be happy about it, I would understand the concept of self-defense for that other country. I’d also think the Canadians living next to or in the same homes as the terrorists were pretty stupid for staying there during the attacks.

Maybe you would like to clarify your question or set up some ground rules in case I am getting it wrong.

I am not against war, per se, when it is necessary and agreed to by the public.

Looks to me like the public of Israel felt that war was justified. War is a shitty process, so I’m guessing it would be smart not to make someone that is more powerful than you feel the need to go to war with you.

The people in Hezbollah could simply lay down their arms and start living a simple life of farming or whatever the fuck else they wished. Israel would cause them no strife if they weren’t intent on perpetrating acts of terrorism.

How fucking hard is that to understand? Peace is available to the region AS FUCKING SOON AS the terrorists decide they would like to find a peaceful solution.

Conducting terrorist actions and then crying foul whenever the attacked countries respond is simply cowardice and transparent propaganda. I can’t believe anyone has any sympathy at all for such actions.

Once a person is a terrorist or fanatic extremist they deserve no sympathy and neither do any willingly supportive family members.

I will not give a single fucking inch to terrorists, their propaganda or whatever. Obviously, I don’t think Iraq qualified as a terrorist nation, but I wouldn’t even object to war in that instance if it was launched in a more appropriate manner.

War has been around as long as humans have been around. Maybe some day we will learn to get along… but that day won’t be before terrorism is wiped off the face of the planet.

The problem isn’t the rest of the world. The problem is the terrorists.

64

[quote]vroom wrote:
mazilla wrote:
yes, unfortunately i was talking to you vroom. the whole it’s ok because they are not targeting civilains on purpose thing. or that sometimes you just gotta kill. would you be saying the same things if somebody was attacking and killing innocent canadians? thats what i meant, sorry for being so vague.

Mazilla,

You have left this pretty open. First, it’s not “ok” that people are dying, but I’m not sure it is okay to allow people to fire rockets at Israel on a daily basis, killing innocent civilians either.

What are your thoughts on that? I don’t think you’ve made that explicit in this regard.

Now, it’s hard for me to imagine Canada harboring a terrorist organization launching attacks against another country. However, if my country did so, I would not be surprised if said other country took offense to that.

If I was a civilian, who wasn’t a terrorist or a terrorist supporter, I’d get the fuck out of dodge when that started to happen.

Whether or not I’d be happy about it, I would understand the concept of self-defense for that other country. I’d also think the Canadians living next to or in the same homes as the terrorists were pretty stupid for staying there during the attacks.

Maybe you would like to clarify your question or set up some ground rules in case I am getting it wrong.

I am not against war, per se, when it is necessary and agreed to by the public.

Looks to me like the public of Israel felt that war was justified. War is a shitty process, so I’m guessing it would be smart not to make someone that is more powerful than you feel the need to go to war with you.

The people in Hezbollah could simply lay down their arms and start living a simple life of farming or whatever the fuck else they wished. Israel would cause them no strife if they weren’t intent on perpetrating acts of terrorism.

How fucking hard is that to understand? Peace is available to the region AS FUCKING SOON AS the terrorists decide they would like to find a peaceful solution.

Conducting terrorist actions and then crying foul whenever the attacked countries respond is simply cowardice and transparent propaganda. I can’t believe anyone has any sympathy at all for such actions.

Once a person is a terrorist or fanatic extremist they deserve no sympathy and neither do any willingly supportive family members.

I will not give a single fucking inch to terrorists, their propaganda or whatever. Obviously, I don’t think Iraq qualified as a terrorist nation, but I wouldn’t even object to war in that instance if it was launched in a more appropriate manner.

War has been around as long as humans have been around. Maybe some day we will learn to get along… but that day won’t be before terrorism is wiped off the face of the planet.

The problem isn’t the rest of the world. The problem is the terrorists.[/quote]

how long until the entire rest of the world is considered to be the terrorist. in many countries we are seen as the terrorist. we seem to fit the bill pretty well.

why can we do it and not them? because we pass our own resolution to impose on the entire world, and it sticks why? simply because we say so.a lump of shit still smells no matter what kind of law you pass saying it does’nt. when will we stop justifying our actions and imposing our will onto the less advanced civilizations? it all comes down to money, greed is the only motivator in this “war on terror”, and it sickens me.

what do Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, etc have to do with the United States, and the rest of the g8? why would we be so hell-bent on having control over that region? do we need sand, dates, second hand goods? no we need oil. it all comes back to greed.if we only had a puppet to do our bidding for us, we could keep a smile on our face as we bring death to soo many, including our own citizen soldiers.

oh thats where Israel comes into play, and everybody knows it. without us they would be nothing. it would be tents and goats all around.it’s all built on a bed of sand, and it’s bound to come crashing down soon enough. that shit did’nt fly with Iran, they kicked us the fuck out as soon as they were done with us and we have trying to settle the score ever since. to this day the best we can do is blame the instability of the middle east on Iran, without much concrete proof. we have a way dirtier record than some countries have had in their existence. thats a great start for a country who is a mere matter of centuries in it’s creation. if we keep up the good work, who knows where well end up.

this is a beautiful coutry, it’s sad thats it’s leaders will be it’s downfall. at least let us go by natural disaster, not by our own pretentious ways. that is all i have to say about this topic, good day.

65

[quote]vroom wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
I can’t believe you LOLed again.

Get over the LOL thing already, you say something stupid and I’m going to laugh at you. Get used to it.
[/quote]

It was a joke. Laugh, maybe it will loosen you up a bit.

I was just pointing out politely that you had committed a logical fallacy : false dilemma.

Are you some kind of control freak ? Who said that I had to play by your rules ?

If you go to sleep with an itchy butthole, don’t blame me when you wake up with a smelly finger.

Israel accepted the hatred when it carved out a piece of land to call it’s own.

Unfortunately it didn’t bring along any plan for peace…

I chose this example to show you that violence breeds violence.

Don’t tell me that you don’t learn from your mistakes every day.

It’s in the news. Why are you asking me to admit something so obvious ?

I’ve already said this, apparently you did not see it.

I hate terrorists.

I want Hezbollah and Hamas to be dismantled.

Period.

This is not a strong argument. Israelis don’t have to be physically present in order to help the palestine authority.

[quote]

Of course, Israel has a multitude of colonies in the West Bank that they are not willing to relinquish, so this option is not going to be considered, at least not in the near future.

Perhaps when there is peace, who owns what won’t matter so much? Land doesn’t exactly care who owns it…

Guess I must be some kind of doofus :wink:

You said it.

Vroom, if you knew me better, I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t say that.

But hey this is just the Internet so you can say whatever you please.

If you knew me better you would also know that I sympathize with Ahmed and Khadija or with David and Sarah who are just in the middle of all this shit.

I only hear sympathies coming out of your mouth in one direction, though you purport to sympathize for everyone. When I see you demonstrate empathy and sympathy for both sides, not just blaming one party, then perhaps I’ll believe what you are saying.[/quote]

I have been criticising the Israeli’s government way of handling terrorists. Nothing less, nothing more.

I have showed support for some of the government’s actions, like the pullout for example.

Do I have to earn gold stars in order to criticise ?

You’re very insecure about this whole situation and very much on the defensive.

Grow up.

66

[quote]mazilla wrote:
how long until the entire rest of the world is considered to be the terrorist. in many countries we are seen as the terrorist. we seem to fit the bill pretty well.[/quote]

Mazilla, perhaps you would like to define terrorism.

It doesn’t all come down to greed. We don’t get free anything. Those countries are very happy to sell their oil for very large sums of money.

Unfortunately, that money somehow doesn’t get put into the pockets of the general citizens. It doesn’t get put into infrastructure or education. Do you know what it gets put into, military might. Many of these countries are busy squandering their wealth and sharpening their swords against ancient enemies.

How stupid is that?

I don’t think we need control over the region either. I do however think that if acts of terrorism (I consider these acts against civilians… acts against the military of a country are somewhat different) cannot be tolerated.

There are a lot of backward ideas, policies and downright barbaric practices going on in some parts of the Middle East. I think their is a clash of cultures and that because Islam has a simple fanatic outlet that we are in for a period of trouble.

No amount of whining about it, thinking it’s unfair, or any other knicker knotting activities are going to let us escape this.

67

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
I was just pointing out politely that you had committed a logical fallacy : false dilemma.

Are you some kind of control freak ? Who said that I had to play by your rules ?[/quote]

It was not a false dilemma. That is the entire point. There are situations that are out of your control, where the other party limits your options.

You have neglected to answer any of my questions. That is a clear enough answer.

You continually avoid my questions and neglect to condemn specific actions of the terrorists. However, you will happily condemn Israel for any and all actions.

I’d say I question your neutrality, but at this point there is nothing for me to question.

[quote]I’ve already said this, apparently you did not see it.

I hate terrorists.

I want Hezbollah and Hamas to be dismantled.[/quote]

These are not the same thing as condemning specific actions. You are leaving yourself wiggle room.

[quote]You’re very insecure about this whole situation and very much on the defensive.

Grow up.[/quote]

Oh bullshit. If I was insecure I wouldn’t be opening my mouth to state my opinion so much.

I happen to have a philosophical problem with terrorism. I don’t have the same philosophical problem with citizen approved open warfare, though it certainly does have terrible consequences.

68

[quote]vroom wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
I was just pointing out politely that you had committed a logical fallacy : false dilemma.

Are you some kind of control freak ? Who said that I had to play by your rules ?

It was not a false dilemma. That is the entire point. There are situations that are out of your control, where the other party limits your options.
[/quote]

Hey, you may be right. But I really hope that it is a false dilemma, because otherwise I don’t see any hope for peace in the region.

You gave two options for peace :
1/ you negociate with the terrorists.
2/ you kill the terrorists and accept civilian losses as collateral damage

I’m sure that you’ll agree with me that option 1 is not happening any time soon.

Anyhow, Israel has chosen option 2. I just don’t see how it can succeed. The first reason is that without INACCEPTABLE civilian losses it will be impossible to dismantle Hezbollah. Remember that Israel was in control before they pulled out of Gaza. During that time, did the IDF eradicate Hamas ? Of course not. The second reason is that popular arab media like Al Jazeera and Al Manar (Hezbollahs free satellite tv station) are on a propaganda roll and using every civilian death to jack up support for Hezbollah.

I condemn terrorism and all their actions.

How’s that my fine feathered friend ?

I also condemn firing rockets on Israeli civilians.

Do you have anything else you want me to condemn ?

While we’re at it and to get it out of the way : Israel has the right to exist.

Do you have anything else your highness wants me to say.

You do realize however that this could take some time…

Or can we go on with this discussion on a non puerile level.

Since we have started our little discussion on this thread and the other one :
1/ you have insulted me
2/ put words into my mouth
3/ tried to make me jump through hoops in order to please you

Now you’ve started editing my posts.

I have specifically shown support on this thread for the Israeli pullout of Gaza and Southern Lebanon. I also want to add that despite some very hard times Israel is still the only democratic country in the ME.

I want to thank you for taking the time to write the Beginners thread. You seem to be a nice guy, pretty well balanced.

But I can’t say that I appreciate your puerile attitude on this thread.

You’ve just stopped short of calling me a terrorist.

I really don’t get it. Is it because I’m from Morocco ?

I will certainly not continue this discussion with you any longer. It’s a waste of time.

I will keep on posting in this thread and others giving my opinion or asking questions whenever I feel like it.

Please feel free to skip my posts…

69

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
Hey, you may be right. But I really hope that it is a false dilemma, because otherwise I don’t see any hope for peace in the region.[/quote]

Join the club.

[quote]I condemn terrorism and all their actions.

How’s that my fine feathered friend ?

I also condemn firing rockets on Israeli civilians.

Do you have anything else you want me to condemn ?

While we’re at it and to get it out of the way : Israel has the right to exist.

Do you have anything else your highness wants me to say.

You do realize however that this could take some time…

Or can we go on with this discussion on a non puerile level.[/quote]

It is helpful to sack up and clarify your position so that a meaningful discussion can take place.

However, from the looks of your responses I doubt we can avoid a discussion of a peurile nature.

[quote]Since we have started our little discussion on this thread and the other one :
1/ you have insulted me
2/ put words into my mouth
3/ tried to make me jump through hoops in order to please you

Now you’ve started editing my posts. [/quote]

Okay, this is where you need to grow up a bit if you don’t want this to descend into childishness.

You were unwilling to clarify your position and you avoided discussing issues that I was asking you about.

Other than quoting you, hopefully correctly, I don’t think I’ve been “editing” your posts.

[quote]I want to thank you for taking the time to write the Beginners thread. You seem to be a nice guy, pretty well balanced.

But I can’t say that I appreciate your puerile attitude on this thread.[/quote]

Boohoo.

[quote]You’ve just stopped short of calling me a terrorist.

I really don’t get it. Is it because I’m from Morocco?[/quote]

I didn’t know where you are from or anything else of that nature. Your previous unwillingness to address issues as raised, which is part of having a discussion, had me concerned about your position on things. Get over it.

Fuck, too bad, you finally started to actually participate in a back and forth discussion where both parties are addressing the points of the other.

[quote]I will keep on posting in this thread and others giving my opinion or asking questions whenever I feel like it.

Please feel free to skip my posts…
[/quote]

Grow up. Learn to deal with the fact that people aren’t always going to agree with you. Especially if you evade their questions and give the appearance of agreeing with things that you apparently don’t.

This is the politics forum, there is always a bit of heat around here. Get used to it.

70

To the Google Earthers who want to see the extent of Israel/Lebanon conflict :

71

[quote]mazilla wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
mazilla wrote:
the easy answer is a united middle east. under the rightfull owner of the territory, Iran. then we can have the re-birth of the glorious persian empire. that would be a fun country to deal with.

WTF are you talking about?

This is the second time you have said this.

You realize Persians and Arabs are not the same thing don’t you?

It was been a few thousand years since the Persians ran the show over there.

The Arabs don’t want it to happen again.

they are all the “same thing” they are muslims, and for them thats what should really count. it will be what counts if the world keeps rallying against that religion.
[/quote]

They are not all the “same thing”.
Not only are the ethnic differences real so are the religious differences.
The Sunni and Shia hate each other almost as much as they hate everyone else. There are something like 70 different sects of Islam.

Your history is so far off it is unreal. The Persians are not running things over there. The reason there is terrorism is becaus ethey are not in charge. Their plan is to terrorize until people give up and let them be in charge again. Either that or bring about the end of the world.

How would the Persians subjagating the Arabs be a gain for the Arabs?

When a clueless idiot like you disagrees with me I think I must be on the right track!

72

[quote]mazilla wrote:

yes, unfortunately i was talking to you vroom. the whole it’s ok because they are not targeting civilains on purpose thing. or that sometimes you just gotta kill. would you be saying the same things if somebody was attacking and killing innocent canadians? thats what i meant, sorry for being so vague.

[/quote]

This article nicely captures why there are civilians getting killed in Lebanon – because Hezbollah uses them as shields, and wants them targeted for propaganda purposes:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=072406D

73

Another Mideast thread, You are all so passionate. k.elkouhen made some very good points, you know your history brother. I think you’re saying the same shit as me to everyone, which is devils advocate, and keeps getting confused.

For everyone, a terrorist=
Seeks to disrupt what he perceives as a negative hegemony through the use of political violence.
There are 3 primary motives for this violence, in order of effectiveness (in my opinion)

  1. To draw international attention to this issue by a dramatic act (explosion, kidnappping etc- it’s newsworthy)
  2. To try to gain local sympathy from kindred- ie in this case, to get the Lebanese as a united whole working with the radical Arab states, and get the masses on-board with anti-west, anti-Israel things
  3. To actually cripple or injure the interests, citizens and infrastructure of a hated enemy- in this case the Israelis

In my opinion it is when terrorists get arrogant and think they can do 3, while still getting 2, and sympathetic 1, that shit goes wrong. If you do 3, you will be criticised/feared.

Early anarchist terrorists called it ‘propaganda by deed’. This is what idealist terrorists are about- blowing up statues, painting walls etc. But people out there in the mideast have their backs to the wall, and can’t act rationally. NONE OF THEM. You murder my mum and sisters, and even though i bear no prejudices, i’ll act like i fucking do.

The fact is, everyone just sees a wild, unpredictable erratic crazy fucker enemy (the islamicists), and it’s only those who know the provocations/motivation for these atrocities that speak with any sympathy, and then end up looking like they collaborate with monsters