Isreal/Lebanon A More Balanced Look

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]harris447 wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.

While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.

I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians.

From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

When you step onto a bus full of civilians with a bomb strapped to you.

When you launch missiles indicriminately into civilian centers.

When you give suicide bombers’ families money and honor.

That’s when.
[/quote]

The terrorists love it when muslims get killed. They always seem to find a way to twist it into Israel’s and/or America’s fault.

Hezbollah launches rockets from an apartment complex. Israel drops a bomb to take out rockets and kills civilians. Israel’s fault for fighting back.

Hezbollah blows up a busload of Israeli school kids. Israel’s fault for existing.

It amazes me that thinking people fall for this crap.

22

[quote]mazilla wrote:
U.S. Disengagement Contributed To Middle East Crisis
By Andrew Tully

WASHINGTON, July 18, 2006 (RFE/RL) – Aggressive acts like the ones Hizballah and Hamas have perpetrated against Israel in recent weeks are rare against a country that has the strongest military in the region and the world’s only military superpower as its chief sponsor. …
[/quote]

This is a lie. Israel has been the victim of countless terrorist attacks.

Some are successful and some are not but to characterize a terrorist attack against Israel as a rare event is a blatant lie.

Since he starts his opinion piece by lying out his ass I cannot only surmise he will continue to lie and distort the facts to fit his agenda.

23

[quote]mazilla wrote:
Tehran Times Political Desk
TEHRAN – ?Israel?s dream to dominate Lebanon will never be realized,?..[/quote]

Yet another mischaracterization.

Why did Israel pull out of Lebanon 6 years ago if they dreamed to dominate it?

Was it some grand plan to allow Hezbollah to build up it’s forces?

Utter garbage!

24

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
mazilla wrote:
Tehran Times Political Desk
TEHRAN – ?Israel?s dream to dominate Lebanon will never be realized,?..

Yet another mischaracterization.

Why did Israel pull out of Lebanon 6 years ago if they dreamed to dominate it?

Was it some grand plan to allow Hezbollah to build up it’s forces?

Utter garbage!

[/quote]

Hopefully JusttheFacts will chime in and link to some articles from www.ILoveTheHolocaust.com.

25

[quote]BH6 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
Good replies, fellas. The writer of this article doesn’t have a clue.

I have some ideas for combatting the hydra of islamic jihadist extremism:

  1. Get the idle youth busy doing something besides weapons training. Real jobs = Good. It’s just like stopping gangs, guys. Raise the general standard of living through opportunity, and the need for youth to express themselves via firearms and explosives will dissipate.

  2. Punish states who support terrorism. And not with a fucking letter telling them how mad we are. Having hizbollah bankrolled and supported by legitimate governments is what emboldens these assholes. This is bullshit, Iran and Syria… you guys need to learn something from the international community regarding this outbreak of violence, methinks.

  3. The way we break the youth’s willingness to die for jihadists is to offer them some better alternative. Right now, these fucks get financial and moral support for their families whenever they sacrifice themselves and murder innocents. If you live in a shithole and have no hope or opportunity for anything better, and some slick willie type comes along and offers you a small fortune for your family as he brainwashes you into the jihadist mindset… well, you do the math. There’s got to be a way to short-circuit this process. Probably the fastest way is to stop the money. So concentrate on where the funding comes from and freeze it.

Can anybody add to this? :slight_smile:

Set up a system of free public education, with a comprehensive curriculum of science, history, geography, and math. The islamic youth are taught nothing of the world, and what little education they get is filtered through the Koran. Everything wrong in thier lives is blamed on Israel or the United States and the poor kids are too ignorant to form thier own opinions. It is easy to control people when you keep them stupid. [/quote]

I think this is going to be what makes the difference in the long run. Theres some details that need to be worked out, of course, especially countering the argument made by the radicals that we are trying to influence the beliefs of the children and turn them against Islam.

26

[quote]harris447 wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.

While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.

I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians.

From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

When you step onto a bus full of civilians with a bomb strapped to you.

When you launch missiles indicriminately into civilian centers.

When you give suicide bombers’ families money and honor.

That’s when.
[/quote]

You know that you didn’t really answer my question.

I didn’t really expect an answer because I don’t think that anybody can justify what’s happening in the middle east right now. Be it one side or the other.

But what you’re saying is that since Israel is victim of terrorism, it doesn’t need to consider civilian casualties…

This just doesn’t make sense to me.

27

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
mazilla wrote:
Tehran Times Political Desk
TEHRAN – ?Israel?s dream to dominate Lebanon will never be realized,?..
Yet another mischaracterization.
[/quote]

There was a “mischaracterization” about Israel from the Tehran Times? What is the world coming to?

28

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.

While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.

I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians.

From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

[/quote]

exactly

29

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
harris447 wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.

While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.

I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians.

From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

When you step onto a bus full of civilians with a bomb strapped to you.

When you launch missiles indicriminately into civilian centers.

When you give suicide bombers’ families money and honor.

That’s when.

The terrorists love it when muslims get killed. They always seem to find a way to twist it into Israel’s and/or America’s fault.

Hezbollah launches rockets from an apartment complex. Israel drops a bomb to take out rockets and kills civilians. Israel’s fault for fighting back.

Hezbollah blows up a busload of Israeli school kids. Israel’s fault for existing.

It amazes me that thinking people fall for this crap.
[/quote]

So much propaganda, so little time

30

[quote]vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.[/quote]

How so?

[quote]vroom wrote:
While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.[/quote]

Where does he say that?

[quote]vroom wrote:
I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians. It seems Ivan does not care about the intent, but simply sees death and violence on both sides and equates them.[/quote]

Untrue. He merely points out that the west never sees it that way.

[quote]vroom wrote:
A somewhat strange viewpoint to take from where I’m standing.

Unfortunately, I think that we’ve entered into something of a one way trap. Once elements of Islam became radicalized, they have been successful at spreading anti-west propaganda and seem to have an ability to generate a large number of supporters under the most absurd conditions.[/quote]

Here the U.S. has helped generate more support for terrorism than anything the radicals could have hoped for. The unprovoked invasion of Iraq is merely the latest example.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Religion is a very powerful tool, and they have wrapped it very tightly with their cause. At the same time, they operate like thugs. Just as an average Joe in the US would never take on the mafia, there is no way the average moderate Abdul in the Middle East would ever take on the radicals.

It took a lot of work, concerted effort, to dismantle the hold that organized crime had established. Who in the Middle East has the will and the resources to fight against the forces of radicalism, which now has proponents in all countries at all levels of industry and government?

When there was only the first generation of radicals and they didn’t have established ways of coopting the next generation of youth into their organizations they could have been easily wiped out. Now, until the recruitment machine is shut down, we will have at least another generation fundamentalists willing to die for the religion and propaganda they have received.[/quote]

Just as the U.S. soldiers are willing to die for the propaganda they recieve.

31

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:

Hopefully JusttheFacts will chime in and link to some articles from www.ILoveTheHolocaust.com.[/quote]

That’s funny, I was just thinking about JTF and jlesk. I was expecting a prediction about when Israel was going to invade Lebanon just like the prediction of the US invading Iran. Seriously, how do you wrongly predict a US invasion and then fail to predict war in the Middle East? I guess we’ll have to get used to life without their insight and inside sources.

32

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?
[/quote]

You figure the terrorists deserve a free pass because they hide among civilians and civilians allow it?

Sure, that’s a good policy. So, you’d rather they lob the odd rocket over the border, in perpetuity, because that way only a few people would die at a time?

To answer your question, it stops being collateral damage when they aim for civilians or otherwise purposefully attempt to maximize civilian deaths.

However, because Hezbollah adherents don’t have a uniform and dogtags, whether or not the person hit is Hezbollah, it will be claimed to be a civilian for propaganda purposes.

Look, I’m a lefty and I’ve been called an “ultra-liberal”, but that doesn’t stop me from seeing that sometimes you do have to fight and subsequently kill. This is especially true when someone is trying to kill you and will use any means available and any tactics available.

Go sing kumba-ya somewhere else, it won’t fly here.

33

[quote]vroom wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

You figure the terrorists deserve a free pass because they hide among civilians and civilians allow it?
[/quote]

Did I say that ? Or did I imply by my question that Israel wasn’t doing a good job at keeping the civilian casualties reasonable?

I was born in '71. I remember watching this stuff in the news in the late seventies. Has anything changed for the better ?

No.

Therefore, I think it’s time to try something else. Clearly, Israel has the power, the knowledge and the moral background to try something else…

Actually, the only thing that’s relevant is the intent.

If it was targeted, it is not collateral damage.

But, what happens when you know that the number of dead civilians outweigh the benefit of hitting the target ?

For example should Israel nuke southern Lebanon ? By doing so, they would absolutely destroy Hezbollah, but they would also kill a lot of innocent bystanders…

This would be true if you were in a street fight and didn’t have the time or the ressources to do something else.

It’s not true when you can talk and solve the problems objectively.

Unfortunately nobody is talking for the moment.

[/quote]

If you don’t mind I’ll keep singing it right here. As a lefty, you’ll understand me. You know freedom of speech and all that :wink:

34

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.

While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.

I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians.

From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

[/quote]

oh, about as long as militant islamofacists hide themselves in civilian communities and launch attacks form them i suspect.

ass-hat.

35

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think Ivan is stretching the definition of terrorism as much as anyone else these days.

While I think policies over the decades have created an environment that fosters recruitment by groups engaged in radicalism and extremism, I don’t agree that one allows or excuses the other.

I also don’t like the idea of equating unintended collateral damage with blatant attacks on civilians.

From the article :
4 Israeli civilians have been killed versus about a hundred in Lebanon and another hundred in Gaza.

When does it stop being collateral damage and turn into indiscriminate usage of force ?

oh, about as long as militant islamofacists hide themselves in civilian communities and launch attacks form them i suspect.

ass-hat. [/quote]

ass-hat…the funniest thing i have heard all day. if you don’t mind i’ll be stealing that one.good day

36

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
Did I say that ? Or did I imply by my question that Israel wasn’t doing a good job at keeping the civilian casualties reasonable?[/quote]

Somebody sure as hell did…

[quote]I was born in '71. I remember watching this stuff in the news in the late seventies. Has anything changed for the better ?

No.

Therefore, I think it’s time to try something else. Clearly, Israel has the power, the knowledge and the moral background to try something else…[/quote]

Israel did try something else. They tried unilaterally removing themselves from disputed areas.

The tried waiting for Lebanon to enforce the UN resolutions that would have removed Hezbollah as a militant force acting against Israel.

If you look at my response, that is basically what I said.

[quote]
This would be true if you were in a street fight and didn’t have the time or the ressources to do something else.

It’s not true when you can talk and solve the problems objectively.[/quote]

They are in a street fight. Are you trying to tell me that terrorists around the world are reasonable and willing to discuss things.

The terrorists are perfectly willing to take as much as you will give them, but unfortunately, peace at any price is a very bad bargain.

[quote]
Unfortunately nobody is talking for the moment.[/quote]

I happen to think a strong action against Hezbollah will encourage some talking in the near future. When the Lebanese government is able to control it’s own territory, it is very likely to want to work towards peace.

I understand freedom of speech, but remember, peace at any price is a bad bargain. Would you trade away a family member of yours if it meant peace? If you did, what if they then decided they wanted another, later?

Letting someone beat you mercilessly, being an absolute pacifist, doesn’t mean they will stop before you are dead. Why don’t you go chat with Hezbollah and suggest they start playing nice?

37

This is as much of a balanced look as I am willing to take:

[quote]
On October 23, 1983 at 6:22 a.m., a large delivery truck drove to the Beirut International Airport where the Marine Barracks was located.

After turning onto an access road leading to the compound, the driver rushed through a barbed-wire fence, passed between two sentry posts, crashed through the gate, and slammed into the lobby of the barracks.

The driver detonated explosives with the power equal to more than 12,000 pounds of TNT. The explosion crumbled the four-story building, crushing service members to death while they were sleeping.

The terrorist attack killed 220 Marines and 21 other U.S. service members who were stationed there to help keep the peace in a nation torn by war.

It was the bloodiest day in the Corps’ history since World War II, when Marines fought to secure Iwo Jima. [/quote]

38

[quote]vroom wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
Did I say that ? Or did I imply by my question that Israel wasn’t doing a good job at keeping the civilian casualties reasonable?

Somebody sure as hell did…
[/quote]

Since I DIDN’T say it, why are you acting as if I did ?

Yup, but you didn’t factor in the size of the response.

If you stay in a street fight for a few minutes, that’s OK. But, if you’re still in it 5 hours later then you have some sort of problem.

From your pseudo, I would have thought that you would have a better understanding of human psychology.

Nobody is going to let themselves be cowered into submission.

The only way out of this problem is to kill them all or live with them in peace.

What would you choose ?

Terrorist organisations like Hezbollah or Hamas thrive in this sort of situation.

Everytime Israel kills a child or some innocent bystander, you will have people knocking on their door to be recruited.

This situation is going nowhere and has been for too long…

If it was in any way pertinent for me to do so, I would do it.

39

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
Nobody is going to let themselves be cowered into submission.

The only way out of this problem is to kill them all or live with them in peace.

What would you choose ?[/quote]

I’m pretty much in favor of killing radical extremist terrorists.

[quote]Terrorist organisations like Hezbollah or Hamas thrive in this sort of situation.

Everytime Israel kills a child or some innocent bystander, you will have people knocking on their door to be recruited.[/quote]

Angry people do not an organized and armed terrorist organization make. By this I mean that “wiping out” Hezbollah in terms of removing weapons and leadership can leave behind lots of unhappy people.

However, if they are less organized and the Lebanese government can thus exert authority over them, the situation is much changed.

I just can’t imagine why people are arguing that Israel should suck it up and accept the launching of rockets into their cities on a daily basis. Of course there is a cycle of hatred, but letting people slaughter your citizens is not appropriate.

Sometimes life gives you shitty choices and you have to deal with the situation. If you have a better solution, which doesn’t involve letting Hezbollah launch rockets into Israel whenever they feel like then let’s hear it.[/quote]

40

Interesting. The Arab Times, out of Kuwait, is positing the idea that this is a more nuanced conflict than it seems at first blush: 3 main players: the Arabs; the Israelis; and the Islamists, linked to the Persians. I think this interpretation is buoyed by the relative weak response of the Arab league, which doesn’t trust Syria and Iran.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/opinion/view.asp?msgID=1242

Excerpt:

[i]While the people of Palestine and Lebanon are paying the price of this bloody conflict, the main players, who caused this conflict, are living in peace and asking for more oil from Arab countries to support the facade of resisting Israel. With the Palestinian Authority close to collapse and the Lebanese government beginning to give up responsibility for what is happening in its territory, Saudi Arabia has been forced to come out of its diplomatic routine and indirectly hold Hezbollah responsible for what is happening Lebanon. ?

This war was inevitable as the Lebanese government couldn?t bring Hezbollah within its authority and make it work for the interests of Lebanon. Similarly leader of the Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas has been unable to rein in the Hamas Movement.

Unfortunately we must admit that in such a war the only way to get rid of these irregular phenomena is what Israel is doing. The operations of Israel in Gaza and Lebanon are in the interest of people of Arab countries and the international community.[/i]