[quote]pushharder wrote:
I didn’t read the article yet but OMG the force (of ignorance) is strong with this one.
The Economist put out this drivel? Really?[/quote]
How can you even make a comment without reading the article? Seriously. And have ever even been out of the state of Montana?
james[/quote]
James, James, James, fair enough. I read the quotes and assumed they were accurate. Were they not? Did SM take them out of context or sumthin?
As to your second question my travels in North America, I’m betting, would make yours look…ummm…rather Rhode Islandish in comparison. Wanna make a wager?
In fact, there’s a fairly decent chance I’ve been more places in the People’s Republic of California than you have.
Tread lightly here, amigo.[/quote]
As I recall, James has traveled quite extensively (as in, Internationally) as a tourist in green. So tread lightly here, Freund.[/quote]
Mr. James and his travel itinerary are quite irrelevant since he seems to be calling Push some fly-over state bumpkin…
Some of you’ve misunderstood the article. It isn’t siding with one side or the other, it’s offering two different viewpoints in one article. It’s also saying that most people get caught up in siding with either Israel or the Palestinians instead of looking at both sides.
[quote]b89 wrote:
Some of you’ve misunderstood the article. It isn’t siding with one side or the other, it’s offering two different viewpoints in one article.
[/quote]
It offers two different viewpoints then goes on to make the ridiculous claims I quoted above as if they are facts.
[quote]
It’s also saying that most people get caught up in siding with either Israel or the Palestinians instead of looking at both sides.[/quote]
Well that’s a pretty stupid thing to say. About as stupid as saying people got caught up in siding with Nazi Germany or the British instead of looking at both sides. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is more cut and dried than any conflict in history with the possible exception of the Second World War.
[quote]b89 wrote:
Some of you’ve misunderstood the article. It isn’t siding with one side or the other, it’s offering two different viewpoints in one article. It’s also saying that most people get caught up in siding with either Israel or the Palestinians instead of looking at both sides.[/quote]
I’d say it goes too far in the section that SM quoted. It didn’t say “the Palestinians believe X and Y.” It stated X and Y as indisputable fact.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
As to your second question my travels in North America, I’m betting, would make yours look…ummm…rather Rhode Islandish in comparison. Wanna make a wager?
In fact, there’s a fairly decent chance I’ve been more places in the People’s Republic of California than you have.
Tread lightly here, amigo.[/quote]
Oh really? LOL, well it’s not really relevant to this discussion but…
I’ve lived throughout southern and northern California, Alaska, Louisiana, Washington, England, Australia, Germany, Virginia, North Carolina, and Nevada. I’ve traveled throughout the Middle East Sierra Leone, the Congo, and Europe both as a tourist and on deployments. I’ve traveled cross country twice on my motorcycle and take roughly two trips a year within California on the bike.
My point is that my travels have given me a considerable amount of perspective on things and allow me to look at the world through a different lens had I simply lived in one place. If I’m wrong about you then I sincerely apologize but you seem rather narrow minded and unwilling to accept other points of view or even entertain listening to them.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Well that’s a pretty stupid thing to say. About as stupid as saying people got caught up in siding with Nazi Germany or the British instead of looking at both sides. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is more cut and dried than any conflict in history with the possible exception of the Second World War.[/quote]
It’s not the same thing by a long shot and I think that you know it. And really? A Nazi reference? In a thread about Israel?
If the British had held their resolve during our Revolution and defeated Washington then we would be reading in the history books about how they were rebellious terrorists. They didn’t and we aren’t. But perspective is just that. It’s what is seen through a different set of eyes.
The article was about how we’re so caught up in who is right that we can’t really figure out how to acheive peace there. In the end it doesn’t really, really matter who is right and who is wrong as long as people are dying.
[quote]b89 wrote:
Some of you’ve misunderstood the article. It isn’t siding with one side or the other, it’s offering two different viewpoints in one article.
[/quote]
It offers two different viewpoints then goes on to make the ridiculous claims I quoted above as if they are facts.
[quote]
It’s also saying that most people get caught up in siding with either Israel or the Palestinians instead of looking at both sides.[/quote]
Well that’s a pretty stupid thing to say. About as stupid as saying people got caught up in siding with Nazi Germany or the British instead of looking at both sides. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is more cut and dried than any conflict in history with the possible exception of the Second World War.[/quote]
The claims are part of the opposing view, that’s why they’re in the article.
Palestinians are a pretty diverse group of people. Even thinking everyone living in Gaza supports Hamas doesn’t hold up to reality. Hamas gained power then quit holding elections, it also regularly tortures and kills its own people while forcing them to sit on rocket stockpiles in an attempt to keep them from being targeted in air strikes. There are citizens of Gaza that spy on Hamas for Israel because they don’t like Hamas, spies in Gaza get public executions with no real questions asked. It’s unfair to lump the people only looking for opportunities and the ability to support themselves and their family in with people who’ve no real goal other than killing someone.
The claims are part of the opposing view, that’s why they’re in the article.
[/quote]
No they’re not. Read the article. They are presented as statements of fact by the author.
Not everyone, but the vast majority. Most the rest support Fatah who are almost as bad.
And how did they gain power? They were democratically elected.
[quote]
it also regularly tortures and kills its own people while forcing them to sit on rocket stockpiles in an attempt to keep them from being targeted in air strikes. There are citizens of Gaza that spy on Hamas for Israel because they don’t like Hamas, spies in Gaza get public executions with no real questions asked. It’s unfair to lump the people only looking for opportunities and the ability to support themselves and their family in with people who’ve no real goal other than killing someone.[/quote]
I didn’t lump them in. There were good Germans in Nazi Germany too, however the majority of the population supported the Nazis.
Owen Jones said “While no people would tolerate having rockets launched at its territory, no people would tolerate being cooped up in a state of perpetual siege, either.”, the author’s statement was "The fact that you are being oppressed provides no justification for engaging in lethal violence deliberately targeting civilians, particularly violence that has no rational connection to any plan for ending your oppression.
I mean, I consider the continued emission of greenhouse gases at current rates to be a moral outrage, but that doesn’t provide any justification or even any coherent reason for me to start shooting passing motorists, much less to open up my office window and chuck out hand-grenades in random directions.". The author also said "…not that those chances were necessarily particularly high. Of course they blame the Israelis.
Of course the Israelis blame them. Thinking about the problem through the prism of who is at fault for the most recent cease-fire violations or escalation of violence doesn’t seem a terribly useful exercise."
Naturally there’s going to be resentment between Palestinians and Jews. That’s a reality of life. Even the majority of Arabs offered Israeli citizenship refused since they don’t want to recognize Israel’s statehood. They’ve the political parties to choose from whether or not the group is even a legitimate political party or even represents their views. More and more Palestinians are also supporting a non-violent resolution and halting rocket attacks. Support for groups can be relative when dissidence can get you killed.
Israel has accused its closest ally, the United States, of endorsing a concerted European backlash against its plans to expand settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank…Five European countries, including Britain, have registered formal protests with Israeli ambassadors over last week’s decision by Benjamin Netanyahu’s government to build 3,000 settlers’ homes …
Along with Australia and Brazil, they were joined by Egypt, threatening to destabilise its fragile regional relations.
The Egyptian foreign minister said it had registered a “strong protest” with Israel’s Cairo ambassador over the proposals.
Despite the mounting international protest however, Mr Netanyahu?s office indicated there would be no backing down over its settlement plans.
An official in Mr Netanyahu’s office told the AFP news agency: “There will be no change in the decision that has been made.”
William Hague, the foreign secretary, dismissed the possibility of European Union sanctions against Israel but said other measures could be applied.
“If there is no reversal of the decision that has been announced, we will want to consider what further steps European countries should take,” he said.
Someone mentioned something about 'disappearing" land or some such thing re the 'Palestinians" one of thr many lies pretending the Arab Muslims 'Palestinians" have any rights to this land at all./
This opost about the ‘disappearing maps’ to which the poster presumably alluded may clear up this particluar lie. In fact it is Israel that has constantly given up land and had it confiscated (most of mandate Palestine was given to the Hashemites by the british and became Trans-Jordan) eh the huge chunk given to Jordan, the withdrawal from Gaza, the Sinai desert.
In addition Moshe dayan gave the Muslim Waqf religious control of the temple Mount and Jews are not even allowed to pray on their own Temple land!!
Here is the link to an excellent layout of the “disappearing land” situation:
