Islam: Arab Supremacism Since 530AD

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
Once again, the OP’s verse is made up!

These, from your first posted link, aren’t:

[i]
[9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.

[9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers.

[9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.

[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.[/i]

Let’s see…

An ultimatum? A demand backed up by a threat in case of non-compliance? That sounds peaceful.

GOD humiliates the disbelievers? That’s pretty big of him.

If I repent, it would be better for me? What, threats again?

Promise the disbelievers a painful retribution? Damn, Allah sure knows how to sweeten the pot, doesn’t he? I’m so close to prostrating myself on my welcome mat… if only I knew which way Mecca was.

Out of curiosity, what happens after the treaty’s expiration date?

Oh. Killing and punishing and so on. Should’ve guessed. Unless I submit and pay the tithe, right? Allah is apparently appeased by dishonest faith coerced at gunpoint, as long as the moolah rolls in.

I’m glad to learn that the Koran spells out that “idol worshipers” should avail themselves of “a place of security” when dealing with muslims.

And all that from “the Religion of Peace.” I guess that appellation is to be taken in the 1984 sense, right?

Err… these passages sound like they’re saying “non-believers will be punished by god.” That’s pretty standard in almost every religion.

Though I don’t really velieve religion is naturally peaceful anyway…
[/quote]

Part of the passage DOES say that unbelievers will be punished by Allah. But if you don’t even believe in Allah, what difference does it make? Are your feelings hurt?

The problem comes in when you read 9:5 and 9:29, which prescribes warfare and subjugation of nonbelievers. That DOES potentially affect you. Please tell me you see the difference.

22

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
But if Christians are equally as violent throughout history, even though “Jesus says it is wrong,” than what the hell does it matter?[/quote]

“Throughout history” isn’t particularly relevant, because right now Muslims are exponentially more violent than Christians. That leads to questions as to whether or not the religion itself is helping to foster the violence.

This is 2008, not 1192. There is almost no widespread violence in the name of Christianity. There is a whole lot of widespread violence in the name of Islam. So why is it so difficult for you understand why we then take a closer look at Islam to see if Islam itself isn’t part of the problem?

This is not a difficult concept, Beowolf. I think you’re just hung up on the idea that Islam itself is deservedly under the microscope while Christianity is not. That might not PC, where all religions are completely equal under all contexts, but that’s the way it is.

It’s a question of degree. A Christian has made a gross concept error if he thinks violence is acceptable by Christianity. Has a Muslim? There are highly knowledgeable people who don’t think so, and that a reformation of the religion itself is needed.

Such an examination might be uncomfortable, but it’s a good thing for Islam in the long run to have it. You’re not helping this process by continually trying to throw the focus where it doesn’t belong.

23

[quote]pookie wrote:
…
[/quote]

Pook, let’s cut through the BS. What do you want to do about Islam and Muslims?

24

[quote]lixy wrote:

Pook, let’s cut through the BS. What do you want to do about Islam and Muslims?[/quote]

Translation: I don’t want to address the “ultimatum” that undermines my claims, so I will try and change the subject.

25

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Err… these passages sound like they’re saying “non-believers will be punished by god.” That’s pretty standard in almost every religion.[/quote]

This part: “you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make.” is quite clearly referencing the believer when it says “you.” It’s not saying “leave it to Allah.”

Your tendency to group all religions as one and the same is leading you to wrong conclusions.

Check out this one: Jainism - Wikipedia and tell me it’s not “naturally peaceful.”

A religion is just a set of dogma/principles/teachings. What those principles and dogmas are vary widely. While all religions mislead their followers in some way, what they convince them to do varies widely.

26

[quote]lixy wrote:
pookie wrote:
…

Pook, let’s cut through the BS. What do you want to do about Islam and Muslims?[/quote]

It’s interesting that you were angry at a false surah for being racist while having apparently no comments about surahs calling for homicide if not genocide.

As to your question pertaining to what I want to do with Islam:

Relegate it, as peacefully as possible, to the pages of history books.

Don’t worry, I think the same agenda is in order for other religions too.

I’m just find Islam’s dishonesty and bald-face lies to be particularly tiresome. The constant self-labeling as a “Religion of Peace” with the understated “Peace for muslims when all infidels are converted or dead” is an example. The thinly veiled oppression of women as normal; the cowardly way out of claiming that the Arabic version of the Koran is all love and butterflies and that any violence and/or cruelty in the translated versions appears during translation.

Islam is surfing on a huge wave of PR bullshit and given a lot more respect than it deserves. It needs to be reformed for modern times, so that it can cohabit with modern western societies. It’s injustices and oppression must not be tolerated. If it cannot adapt itself to cohabit with modern secular societies, then it must be coerced, by various means, into doing so.

Western modern societies have fought long and hard to abolish a lot of inequities and injustices towards all. While I deeply believe in freedom and liberty for all, I also believe that we must set a limit to the freedom and liberties of those who would use that freedom to curtail the liberties of others, even their own. In short, we cannot tolerate intolerance, even from a religion. Maybe especially from a religion.

27

[quote]pookie wrote:
It’s interesting that you were angry at a false surah for being racist while having apparently no comments about surahs calling for homicide if not genocide. [/quote]

What’s even more interesting is that said false a-ya (surah means whole chapter!) is getting bumped up on Youtube, and I’m pretty certain that many in here could have taken the OP’s word for it.

Anyway, you know full well that those verses you claim are “calling for homicide if not genocide” came in a historical context and that there is no way I, nor any of the Muslims, I know would interpret them in the way you do. There is plenty of info on the web if you’re seriously willing to understand that surah, and I know that you are smart enough to do it yourself.

As to your question pertaining to what I want to do with Islam:

[quote]Relegate it, as peacefully as possible, to the pages of history books.

Don’t worry, I think the same agenda is in order for other religions too. [/quote]

How do you you propose to do that when atheists are clearly outnumbered? Also, considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, how do you plan to relegate it to the pages of history books.

Seriously, what concrete steps would you take if you were put in charge?

28

There are no steps to take. The dirty little secret is that the secular west killed God, and filled the void with materialism and celebrity. Our demographics are pretty terrible and it’ll take more and more immigrants to fill jobs, and to pay the taxes for the social programs the elderly west is living off of.

In short, we’ll have to rely on religious foreigners and the quantity of their offspring, to fuel our economy, to fuel our welfare state. Unfortunately, we’ll probably lose our own values and culture through the process as assimilation breaks down more and more. Or, reverses itself.

29

Lixy, I respect you more then most politics-forum posterboys, as you know.

But there are a some things that you hold frenetically onto, for no good reason:

Do you think there will be a time when your kind of muslims will ever be in the majority? Sincerly?
The western world only got this far precisely because the “moderates” aren’t real christians.
Never will humans be able to cope with an ancient irrational text (bible, quran…) in our time, believe that crap and stay friendly on top of that.

Atheist is a silly label, as you probably know. Most people aren’t particularly religious in the west, most south asians view religion totally differently in so far that you can’t put them on the same boat like, say, muslims, and east asians are practically atheists.
So, the vast majority hasn’t a monotheistic belief it wants to impose on every aspect of life.

That point bugs me especially !
fastest growing…
Religion was never in history effectively passed on peacefully- the big spikes in converted soul statistics were by (violent) force, guile or blackmail.
As it is with islam.
I hear that “fastest” so often, what does it mean to you, and why do you believe it to be the case? Is second fastest not good enough because the bestest religion surely grows the fastest?
Do you support that growth, knowing that it can only come from abusing women, forced arabian influence, that it is a sure way to cement poverty in a land as well as radicalism?

30

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Lixy, I respect you more then most politics-forum posterboys, as you know.

But there are a some things that you hold frenetically onto, for no good reason:

“…historical context and that there is no way I, nor any of the Muslims, I know would interpret them in the way you do.”

Do you think there will be a time when your kind of muslims will ever be in the majority? Sincerly?
[/quote]

I can’t speak for lixy, but all the Muslims I’ve ever known are ‘his kind of Muslim’. It’s also my opinion that alternative interpretation comes more from reasons outside of religion; the people are oppressed, poor, feel their culture is under attack, etc and the religion is used as a uniting force.

31

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Lixy, I respect you more then most politics-forum posterboys, as you know.

But there are a some things that you hold frenetically onto, for no good reason:

“…historical context and that there is no way I, nor any of the Muslims, I know would interpret them in the way you do.”

Do you think there will be a time when your kind of muslims will ever be in the majority? Sincerly? [/quote]

Sincerely, ALL Muslims I know personally think in the same terms.

My great grand-mother allegedly hasn’t missed a single prayer since the age of 14. She’s been to Mecca a dozen times. But she’d spit in the face of any idiot who tries to push an agenda where pub be closed even if she never had a drop of alcohol in her entire life (again, by her own words). We were watching Euronews when those 4 criminals blew up the London tube. I couldn’t get her to shut up. She cried like a little girl.

I have been pretty much all around the Arab world, and I rarely find much differences in the way the individuals interpret the Quran. Sure, here and there you may run across the occasional racist or someone who want to push their own ideology onto you, but those exceptions are pretty much universal. For the bulk of the Ummah, religion is an individual thing, and you treat others with the respect and consideration you would like to be treated with yourself.

Much, if not all of the bad rep Islam is getting nowadays, can be traced to the Wahabi twats. Those idiots seriously believe that they descend from the prophet. And since they have more money than Croesus, they managed to poison the well for everybody. Didn’t bother the West much at first. They were even given plenty of support to counter pan-Arabists, independentists, communists and everyone that threatened their investments and empires. Even though it bit them right in the butt, the West’s still bestest friends with them, while secular regimes are undermined (or downright toppled).

Sigh.

I know plenty of Christians who would differ. They’ll tell you that whoever you think is a real Christian, is in fact a fraudster.

No, I don’t.

Atheist, nontheist, unbeliever. Why is the first silly?

I never said anything about monotheism. I spoke about belief in divinities or lack thereof.

But, now I’m curious, have you ever been to a majority-Muslim country? You don’t seem to know much about the fundamentals that unite us as human beings.

Never, in my entire life, did I meet someone who was converted to Islam by “force, guile or blackmail”. I did meet plenty of people who converted because they found the message appealing.

And I doubt it’s a case of biased sample.

It means what it means: fastest growing!

There is a number of highly regarded institutes who make that claim. Try the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

To keep TQB’s tradition, that argument would constitute logical fallacy #12.

Do I what? What kind of a question is that? Do you support continental drift?

And what’s that nonsense about “knowing that it can only come from abusing women”? Do you know any Muslim women?

Do yourself a favor and go talk to real people. You sound like somebody who’s getting his information from hearsay.

32

[quote]lixy wrote:
What’s even more interesting is that said false a-ya (surah means whole chapter!) is getting bumped up on Youtube, and I’m pretty certain that many in here could have taken the OP’s word for it.[/quote]

I’m not too concerned for two reasons. One, the kind of people who won’t bother checking it out are simply not going to change their mind anyway. Two, there are plenty of real verses much worse than that made up one.

Any of the muslims? You’ve interviewed each one individually I take it?

Also, if it’s only relevant historically, where’s the admonition informing us of that fact? Better, why not re-edit a modern “valid for today’s world” version of the Koran with the historical non-applicable parts in some clearly labeled annex?

Much confusion would be avoided. With the current situation, you sound exactly like any Christian apologetic who tried to defend difficult passages of the Bible by invoking historical context.

I have no interest in that surah, or any of the others. I’ve read enough of it (the Koran) to know that as a guide for life, it’s about a thousand years out of date.

If we can improve the life of enough people around the globe, I believe it will come of itself.

Religions feed of despair and hopelessness. They prosper wonderfully when people are poor, starving, sick and oppressed. Situations that, unfortunately, describe much of the middle east and other muslim regions around the globe.

If you look at the western countries with the best social programs, you find that higher and higher proportions of people claim to be atheist or non-religious. In Norway, some polls have that group as high as 70%… in Canada, I remember reading that recently, “Atheist/Non-Religious” became the 4th largest group behind Protestants/Catholics/Muslims as was the group that had made the most progress.

I think when people have a reasonable expectation of being able to provide a minimal level of support for their families, when their health is provided for and they feel that they can live in a fairly level playing field, many tend to lose the “fire” of devout faith. You don’t need to pray to an imaginary deity and make imaginary bargains with it in hope of bettering your lot in life when the society you live in is humane enough to do it by itself.

Take away the reasons for seeing the world with an “us vs. them” mentality, and I believe that a lot of people will be content with a more personal form of spirituality and much less inclined to follow fanatic religious leaders.

Of course, from where we are now to where we’d need to be for this to even have a chance of happening, there is a enormous amount of work to be done, but it’s not impossible. We’re talking many, many generations here, but if you look at history, the most advanced societies tend to propagate and slowly bring the rest of the world in their wake. There will be much resistance from leaders, religious and political, who profit from the status quo. But as technology such as the internet proliferates, and that more and more people have access to information and are able to communicate, I think most of the power structures that rely on obscurantism and propaganda to survive will fall by the wayside or be forced to change enough to be acceptable to modern societies.

In charge of what? The entire Earth? Do I get magical powers too?

33

[quote]Also, considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, how do you plan to relegate it to the pages of history books.

Seriously, what concrete steps would you take if you were put in charge?[/quote]

It’s funny that you keep repeating the little “fastest growing religion” falsehood, even as Muslims are converting en masse to Christianity in places like Iran, Turkey and the Maghreb, or to atheism in Iraq.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/03/africa/youth.php

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3DVFA_enUS245US253&q=algeria+%2Bchristianity&btnG=Search

You even hear Islamic websites complaining about the “imperialistic activities” of Christian missionaries in these places.

This lie is supposed to strike fear into the hearts of the kuffar due to the demographic implications, but what evidence is there for it? The Muslims simply bump up their population statistics by about a 100 million every year or so. Just a few years ago, we were told the number was 1 billion.

Now it’s 1.3 - completely without substantiation. Given the rampancy of homosexuality and abortion in the Muslim world, the growth statistics are almost definitely inflated.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

The only way Islam can spread is through the sword or demography. It is not an inspiring doctrine.

What should be done about Islam? This was the earlier question.

Muslims must be told that their doctrine provides no resolution to their fundamental condition: their sinfulness. If Allah is a righteous god, as is alleged by Muslims, then he must punish all who sin in hell.

Since there is no way for a Muslim to atone for his sins, he is automatically on his way to hell, if Allah is righteous. There is no way of salvation in Islam. Only Christianity provides this. Only Jesus, through his death for our sins and resurrection for our justification, provides a way of salvation.

Strive in the way of Allah all you like. At the end of the day, you’re no closer to heaven than when you started. Actually, you’re further behind because every day living means more sinning.

34

I actually started a thread defending the conquest of Canaan without invoking historical context - a nontrivial thing to defend. I got maybe a few posts. For the most part, it was ignored.

35

[quote]pookie wrote:
One, the kind of people who won’t bother checking it out are simply not going to change their mind anyway. [/quote]

You don’t know that.

[qute]Anyway, you know full well that those verses you claim are “calling for homicide if not genocide” came in a historical context and that there is no way I, nor any of the Muslims, I know would interpret them in the way you do.

Any of the muslims? You’ve interviewed each one individually I take it? [/quote]

I misplaced a comma. It should read “nor any of the Muslims I know,” in lieu of “nor any of the Muslims, I know”.

There is no central authority in Islam, and there has never been since the death of the prophet Mohamed. I like it better that way, than having some self-proclaimed guru with an alleged divine channel telling me what the Quran is.

The prophet was quoted as saying “Al Halalu bayin wal Haramu bayin”. Meaning, that the halal is clear, and the haram is just as clear. If you need an annex to tell you that killing is wrong (that is, killing in any other case by immediate self-defense), then you need to sort out bigger problems in your life than interpreting the Quran.

And…?

Good. Meanwhile, it would be wise to not gratuitously call Muslims names. It does nothing to improve dialog, and only alienates them.

American aren’t really starving. Yet, 90%+ of them are believers.

But I got your point nonetheless.

I know that Muslims represent about 2% of Canada. So being below that, translates into very very small numbers.

[quote]Seriously, what concrete steps would you take if you were put in charge?

In chage of what? The entire Earth? Do I get magical powers too?
[/quote]

No magical powers.

I believe you answered the question already. You’ll apparently focus on “freeing” people economically.

It’s a good call. But be careful not to feed the repressive elites. It seems the richest Arab countries are also the most fundamentalist. A mere correlation, I suppose.

What you need to do is stop sending food, money and other gadgets, and only give poor countries structural aid. If it won’t help them make money on their own, let them starve. They need to figure out some things on their own. And for the love of God (or whatever applies in your case), stop legitimizing the rule of dictators. Chinese abuse is nothing compared to what’s happening in parts of the Muslim world.

36

Here is the full text of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasulallah, translated by Guillame, pg 243:

""I have heard that it was of him that the apostle said, “Whoever wants to see Satan let him take a look at Nabtal b. al-Harith!” He was a sturdy black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks. He used to come and talk to the apostle and listen to him and then carry what he had said to the hypocrites.

It was he who said: “Muhammad is all ears: if anyone tells him anything he believes it.” God sent down concerning him: “And of them are those who annoy the prophet and say he is all ears, Say: God ears for you. He believes in God and trusts the believers and is a mercy for those of you who believe; and those who annoy the apostle of God for them there is a painful punishment.” (Sura 9:61)“”

So Ibn Ishaq is quoting 9:61. The part about the donkey shouldn’t be in there. It looks like somebody threw that in from something else or made it up.

Nevertheless, Mohammed did own black men, and as Surah 33:21 states:

The implications of this I leave to the reader.

37

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
Once again, the OP’s verse is made up!

These, from your first posted link, aren’t:

[i]
[9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.

[9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers.

[9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.

[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.[/i]

Let’s see…

An ultimatum? A demand backed up by a threat in case of non-compliance? That sounds peaceful.

GOD humiliates the disbelievers? That’s pretty big of him.

If I repent, it would be better for me? What, threats again?

Promise the disbelievers a painful retribution? Damn, Allah sure knows how to sweeten the pot, doesn’t he? I’m so close to prostrating myself on my welcome mat… if only I knew which way Mecca was.

Out of curiosity, what happens after the treaty’s expiration date?

Oh. Killing and punishing and so on. Should’ve guessed. Unless I submit and pay the tithe, right? Allah is apparently appeased by dishonest faith coerced at gunpoint, as long as the moolah rolls in.

I’m glad to learn that the Koran spells out that “idol worshipers” should avail themselves of “a place of security” when dealing with muslims.

And all that from “the Religion of Peace.” I guess that appellation is to be taken in the 1984 sense, right?

Err… these passages sound like they’re saying “non-believers will be punished by god.” That’s pretty standard in almost every religion.

Though I don’t really believe religion is naturally peaceful anyway…
[/quote]

It says “you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make”

Why do you make excuses?

38

[quote]will to power wrote:
…

I can’t speak for lixy, but all the Muslims I’ve ever known are ‘his kind of Muslim’. …[/quote]

His kind of Muslim is in favor of the methods used by Islamic terrorists including the bombing of markets. He is also in favor of rape of young girls, murder of homosexuals and a litany of other crimes.

I hope you are saying this in ignorance of lixy’s posting history.

39

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
His kind of Muslim is in favor of the methods used by Islamic terrorists including the bombing of markets. He is also in favor of rape of young girls, murder of homosexuals and a litany of other crimes.[/quote]

And let’s not forget, throwing puppies off cliffs.

40

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
His kind of Muslim is in favor of the methods used by Islamic terrorists including the bombing of markets. He is also in favor of rape of young girls, murder of homosexuals and a litany of other crimes.

And let’s not forget, throwing puppies off cliffs.[/quote]

Piss off asshole. You have gone too far on this site and you have shown your true self. Go somewhere else.