I’m wondering this too. It seems logical to me that this is the better explanation. It would also explain why just about everyone goes through that “honeymoon” period right? The whole physiological high of anticipating being stronger and more fit…almost like a placebo effect with a very real change going on at the same time because of the exogenous Test being flooded into the body for the first time. I would imagine that the same thing happens in a cycle too as you introduce more test for a short period, though I don’t know because I haven’t been on a cycle yet. Makes sense.
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Look at a proBB who cycles and look at a TRT guy who BB’s. It’s not anecdotal or psychological it is real. You are stronger and recover much faster. The problem is all the bad things your body does over time at that high lvl. HCT E2 prolactin high BP bacne T receptor issues. That is why its called a cycle. No one can stay up there forever no matter how it makes you feel.
That’s kind of what he’s saying here I think. You can’t just go by feelings because you feel damn good at high levels of T. The point is that the psychological part of is the anticipation and the “feel” good part, when in reality you do feel good, but you feel even better at higher levels, but is it really necessary? Take for example, @baka is saying he needs to be at 500mg a week to “feel” good…does he feel better at that level? Sure but does he really NEED to be at that level to feel good (or should I say normal)? I can’t personally answer that question but I would bet it’s a no. That’s supra levels and would probably do a lot of damage long term.
The bottom line I think is that you can’t go by just the numbers if you’re feeling like shit…BUT, if you’re not feeling like shit, but you feel better at 2000+ (and who wouldn’t?) than you you do at 900, then that’s another thing altogether. AND…(and I think this is the angle that @NH_Watts is coming from) are you feeling better because of the higher levels of Test, or is it the results that you are seeing in the mirror, or the results that you know will inevitably come from the higher levels of Test, that’s making you feel better, ie…psychological?
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With all due respect we were not talking about physiological changes. We were talking about physiological feelings. Edit: @bmbrady77 fully expounded, thank you.
@baka may be taking a large dose at 500mg E7D but his levels are not crazy. Mine are higher at 180mg of test.
That’s what I’m thinking too. Many exceed 2000 at this dose.
But to add for others, I’ve been on TRT for nearly 3 years now, starting moderately low at 125, moving to 250, admitting to cycle a couple times which made me feel great in the gym, and going back to 250 (B&C).
There are just so many symptoms of low T. Some, I refuse to ever deal with (brain fog, confusion, etc.). While 250mg eased that, it never completely went away until I ran 500mg.
I know this is T replacement and not steroid discussion, but I think it’s important to add that when I do throw in other compounds, I’m on the top of the world in the gym and making gains, but, I only attribute the 500mg test as I’ve been running it for months now to well-being.
Am I overlooking something that is causing this anomaly? I mean, some reportedly feel great on as low as 60mg twice weekly.
Not at all. I made gains throughout different doses. It’s really an internal feeling, not reflected by outward appearance. I mean, I can’t say that truthfully, cause everyone looks at themselves in the mirror and says, “Damn, I’m looking good today.” But, getting stacked and jacked isn’t my intention by going supra. I’m just wondering whether numbers actually matter. And to address the safety portion, I’m still a donor and I don’t let my RBC creep up too high.
Agreed and no disrespect was meant toward @baka at all… I was using the situation as an example to apply to what we consider normal circumstances, but his is clearly the exception.
None taken, this was intended on a discussion as I was told that I’m addicted by a doctor.
To some extent, I do believe labs play a role, such as hitting the 22 E2 sweet spot, which is really 5-10ish for me. But other than that, if all my low T symptoms vanish at 500mg verses some remaining at 125mg and 250mg, am I really doing harm?
It’s philosophic, but I’ve accepted it and discussed the dangers with my wife already. I’d rather, after finding I had low T feeling like I was on my deathbed years ago at sub-80, that I’m never gonna go back. I feel great. I might stop oral cycles, as I find them more damaging, but 500mg keeps me at a good baseline. I’d rather have 40 years of this life than 60 years sub-optimal (31 now).
Lets see if you say that on your 40th Bday.
I don’t believe (at least in the US) any doctor can prescribe 500mg/wk. It’s against the law.
I think I read, from our local doc here, he was only allowed to script 300 or maybe it was 400/wk.
I thought he said anything over 300mg a week and the DEA starts getting nosey.
Does anyone know at what level a week that Health Canada/RCMP starts to get nosey, at? I’m trying to go from 120mg (from original 100mg) to 150mg on next visit to uro. LOL!
I’m serious tho! :))))
Testosterone and any other steroid (though there is only primo here) is no big deal in Japan. It was hard to get my current doc to up the dose, but as I’m doing everything right to keep my health in check, as reflected by thorough lab work, he is fine at dosing it. Though, like many in Japan, he thinks it’s silly – I can’t seem to recall the Japanese proBB that now lives in the US because his parents just didn’t understand. It’s not illegal, just weird. And again, I know this is the TRT forum, but I do believe different people are dose dependant after seeing people describe how they feel on as little as 100mg a week. So this was more of a discussion about how one can feel at T levels of 80 verses 300 (me in 2012, no TRT as "not low“), 500-600, 900, 1200, 1800, etc. There are medically accepted published numbers of low to high in males and doctors seem to treat to target that, but not entirely the feelings and attempting to eliminate all low T symptoms be it 500 or 1100.
Just to add to that, I was sub 80 before I could even get treatment as 300 isn’t “low” here, something I’m still angry about as taking it at face value and not doing my due diligence to correct that doctor and get treated earlier in life.
Can’t there be a middle ground, I’m on 250mg/wk (more than I’m prescribed) and I feel absolutely awesome, I’m thinking after I go back to my original dose and get bloods n all I’ll just run 200mg/wk for a long time, probably putting me at like 1000ng/dl, the very top of normal, this is a middle ground, you feel better than what you would at a lower TRT dose, but not quite as good as on cycle, it could be the perfect middle ground.
actually there is a very small body of scientific evidence, higher doses of test appear to affect sexual function and other parameters on older men more than younger guys like me… although I think we’d be assuming the younger guy has a normally functioning endocrine system, I had the testosterone levels of a 240 yr old man. Dose-Dependent Effects of Testosterone on Sexual Function, Mood, and Visuospatial Cognition in Older Men | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic
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Sexual “function” is not a feeling though unreal. I mean it may lead to increased euphoria due to ego etc
There was also a dose dependant increase in certain parameters of cognitive function. While it isn’t a feeling its a small body of scientific evidence suggesting that supraphysiologic levels of T does have a positive effect on sexual function and other parameters besides muscle mass, which goes against the grain of a lot of what is said on the TRT forum here.
According to Wikipedia epitiostanol is manufactured in Japan it’s an anabolic steroid and antiestrogen. Epistane, the c17AA designer drug is c17AA epitiostanol (methylepitiostanol). Wikipedia isn’t exactly a reliable source though, I wouldn’t want to take it but it might exist
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I remember listening to a JRE podcast episode with Dorian Yates. I think he is on TRT doses now but during his BB days he was using 1,000mg of test a week (along with other stuff) but never mentioned he felt like superman. There was no direct question regarding that though. Its anecdotal for sure but you don’t hear a lot of older BBs being honest about steroid use. FWIW, He also mentions that he hears guys are using 3 times that much these days.
36 min general steroid talk. 1:02 min he talks about his stack.
I’ve used some pretty hefty doses in my time, cant say it felt much different than being at the top end of normal range… apart from in recovery time etc.
I’ve done a lot of experimenting over the years and what I found is if your Free T runs over range for very long the body really starts doing things to fight it or knock it down. By convering more to E2 and prolactin. We all know how much fun thoses sides are with man boobs, ED, loss of libido.
On many HCT (number of red blood cells) starts rising to un healthy lvls which causes heart problems.
I say if you do complete blood tests twice a year and have no signs of the bad side effects of excessive T in your system go for it. Most will say excessive T has never killed anyone from overdosing but the negitive side effects from excessive T in your system sure as hell can.
A personnel example. If your SHGB is on the low side you make a shitload of Free T with very little T cyp. Heres mine on 150mg/wk My shgb was 29
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Very personalized. Look at my sad and underwhelming Free T with an extremely low SHBG of 15:
That was on 33mg, three times a week for a total of 100mg a week. I’m now on 17mg every day for a total of 120mg a week. He reluctantly upped it after I pleaded with him. Hoping to get 150mg a week on next visit.
SAD!!!
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