Is This the End of Roe v. Wade?

If you would quit trying to question the validity of the Bible, I would quit defending it.

Your problem with Matt 27 is clearly explained in Hab 1:13.
You just need to know the attributes of God the Father.

I use the Bible as the final authority in all matters. Just take that into consideration when you reply to me. I am sure most no one here totally agrees with me. And I am okay with that.

Just say you don’t agree. You sure wouldn’t be alone. Ask yourself, “Why do I want to discredit RT Nomad’s opinion?”

You have taken me the wrong way. I do disagree with you but do not wish to necessarily change your mind or discredit. I only offer a perspective that maybe one should contemplate (if you have and are set in your convictions, that is awesome. I wish my faith was currently that strong).

I understand

The problem with me responding to all your questions is that it gets far off topic. And I do have answers to all of your questions, as you might guess.

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Thanks for sharing this. @Alrightmiami19c

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Of course the article avoids the anti abortion movement’s desires and only looks at legislation. It’s like the anti gun control argument that if you give an inch, they will eventually take your guns away.

I do, that’s literally the bread and butter of my stance. Not wanting to see a worse health related outcome for women on an epidemiological scale.

I wrote a fairly detailed write up on this earlier. If we look at countries that have criminalised abortion, more women die and the same degree of foetuses are aborted. The outcome regarding the number of abortions performed is equitable, the outcome regarding the number of women dying, suffering from psychological distress etc increases exponentially. Thus from what I conclude the stance against abortion isn’t one mediated by preference over a given health outcome, it is one based on the precipice of morality.

If one is to view abortion as murder, then they can’t in good conscious opt for the procedure to be legalized regardless of the outcome associated with criminalization. Although it is not a body of thought I agree with, it is one that I find logical IF the individual legitimately equates the procedure and murder to be one and the same.

Therefore I respect those who are pro-life on the basis of moral or religious grounds. Criminalizing procedures like abortion is also said to impart a degree of obedience within the male and female population, as it is supposed to make people think twice before bumping uglies.

However the outcomes within countries that have criminalized abortion don’t appear to reflect this narrative reigning true when bans are put in place. With that being said, you are CORRECT in that many men do want easy access to sex

Why wouldn’t they?

What many don’t realise is, this ideology is steeped in fantasy. Unless you are one hell of a charismatic, wealthy, famous, good looking, influential (pick one)… Why would women be bending over backwards to have sex with the average joe schmoe? The average guy is still going to rack up 10-15 sexual partners throughout their lifetime, this has been stagnant since the 1930s or so within the United States albeit the latest generation has noted a small decline in reported number of sexual partners for both men and women.

Unless you have something special, you aren’t going to be having a ton sex with beautiful women. The fact the rate of sexual partners have remained constant over the past 100 years further proves my contention, the criminalization of abortion or lack thereof has very little impact on how many are actually having sex.

If one looks into the stats re the rate of teen pregnancy/children being born out of wedlock during the 40’s and 50’s they’ll see there was a reason beyond wanting to screw around as to why hormonal contraception/plan B was released. Those who wanted to legalise abortion also began with wishing to do so under select circumstances as opposed to de facto no fault abortion being legalised.

Abortion wasn’t always illegal in the states. Laws against the practice were first imposed in the 1800s, prior to then it was a grey area as there were ways to induce miscarriage absent of abortifacients. A number of pre-roe precedents such as the case of Sherri Finkbane (or something like that) enabled the groundwork by which Roe V Wade would be set upon

Or they could see a hooker…

It’s not as reliable as the pill. For testosterone alone dosages of 300mg/wk aren’t even reliable enough to induce azoospermia. You’d need a strong progestogenic compound, like dimethandrolone currently being trialled as a male contraception. With the word “strong” also comes… strong side effects… Not to say the pill is an absolute side effect free extravaganza, but this is likely going to be worse in terms of long term outcomes if given to the masses.

Another thing, you can heavily suppress a woman’s secretion of FSH/LH through hormonal contraception, but when the woman stops taking the drug hormonal homeostasis re asserts itself quickly. The same can’t be said for men. You might be looking at 3-6+ months of shutdown, and compensated hypogonadism if the man has been on a strong, androgenic 19-nor like dimethandrolone for a long period of time. Imagine shutting down the HPTA of men en masse within a society wherein the average male testosterone level has already been on a declining trajectory for decades.

Doctors already don’t like providing TRT even when the treatment is legitimately indicated. Many are harping on about the inequities associated with female contraception and the lack of temporary male options, thus when news broke of DMAU a ton of keyboard warriors harped on “HaH! nOw MeN dOn’T hAvE aNy ExCuSe!”. They still have an excuse… it’s easier for a woman to start and stop use of hormonal contraceptives than it is for a man to take modestly supraphysiological dosages of anabolic steroids and come off.

However this doesn’t mean the pill isn’t necessary from a therapeutic context. A small portion of women have AWFUL menstrual cycles such as those with endometriosis (affects roughly 10% of women) for which hormonal contraception can be a godsend as higher dosages can stop ovulation entirely. For most menstruation is an uncomfortable time, however for others it can cripple them for a week or so. In which case the benefits outweigh the side effects and this goes beyond the prospect of preventing pregnancy.

Can also help reduce burden associated with PCOS (hirsutism) and whatnot.

Not that it’s relevant to the United States at the moment, but during wartime/periods of civil unrest hormonal contraception and plan B has prevented many unwanted pregnancies stemming from marauders ransacking homes and raping women which is VERY common during wartime.

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Apologies for such a late reply, but I don’t think society will ever understand how to talk “to” someone instead of “at” someone regarding this.

My husband and I have practiced conversations repeatedly about how to approach this with our future kid(s).

And I also took up sexual health “training” for my job for youth both my age, and the younger generation. I put quotes around the training, because a decent stack of papers kept referencing abstinence and I honestly had to sit back and just deal with how frustrated I was because nearly half of the protocol talked about it.

Abstinence on paper sounds great, abstinence in the face of growing up, finding friends, experiencing trauma, first love, hormones, heart break, getting a job, living up to parents/society’s expectations….starts to fall null. Falling null doesn’t always have to show up as sexual rebellion either.

I think @mnben87 mentioned something crucial and that’s access. Young people should have access to information, and access to a decent amount of options. Has it always been like that? No. But it should have been.

Another thing that I think that’s just as powerful is honesty on behalf on parents/guardians. Telling young people not to have sex is hopeful at the best, and destructive at worst. Because it’s rare we simply…keep our hands to ourselves.

I don’t think it’s going to help solely focusing on younger women, but BOTH young women and men. I understand the focus shift though. Women bring the next generations into life. But young men have just as much emotion and sexual attraction swirling around as do younger women. I don’t think that’s going to work as much as it could because to this day, talking about emotions is just…well people would rather chew broken glass than talk about their emotions. Younger people tend to be driven by their emotions, so to me, talking about things such as hopes, expectations, fears, learned behaviors, coping mechanisms, sexual attraction, HOW they view sex, etc., will help drastically.

I know I sound like an idealist, but I’ve read enough and sat through enough, and experienced a decent amount to at least say, with confidence, that withholding and restricting does more harm than good. Sure, in past cases/past cultural traditions the outcome was no children until marriage/until a certain age, but what was learned? What was retained? What value was taken? What perspectives were shifted and deemed “most important? And where was the value concerning the individual?

I do think with certain cultures, women are viewed as the sum of their ability to bear children. And I think that is deeply rooted in the Western society we see today. And I understand it. Do I think we stand divided now more than ever? Yes. Do I think both sides are causing tremendous amounts of pressure? Yes. But the anger, and what caused it, is valid.

On a more specific note, at least continuing to talk about Western/U.S. things, since I can’t make generalizations about every society/culture or it’s views towards sex/marriage/relationships, but I will provide a very specific situation I went through. My mom was amazing at breaking down sex and teaching me what it was. My father? Not so much. He taught me to keep my legs closed because “that’s what a good woman should do”. My mom on the other hand, drew such a beautiful and grounded picture of sexual activity/romance. She explained things she experienced, as well as what she observed in my dad when they were teenagers. She told me that at the end of the day, the decisions I make are mine, but that “I am more than the sum of my physical parts.”

I think In Western society we (women), have been guarding something we deem as threatened for so long, that our identity now lies within JUST that thing. Completely? No, but so much so that we’ve taken promiscuity, women’s rights, body positivity, sexual activity, etc., and ran so far with it as a means to say “This is my body and I’ll do whatever I want with it”, to the point we end up hurting ourselves. Should a woman value herself? Yes. Be proud of herself? Yes. Find autonomy in caring and deciding who or what enters her? Yes. By all means, but where’s the line between doing that for herself and making a social justice statement?

I do agree with this statement heavily as well:

Going back to the conversations my husband and I would have about what we would say to our kid(s), I would ALWAYS tell him to speak. Don’t just say definitives, and PLEASE bring life to the things you say. Say how you felt, what you wish someone would’ve told you, things you thought were important but weren’t, etc. Spell all of that out for a young kid. Condoms and contraceptives work, but so does relating to someone.

And on an even more personal note: I completely agree to whoever it was that commented on society’s portrayal of sex/relationships/romance. Giving a painful example from someone of the black community, sexual activities, even just sexuality itself is being torn apart by media, specifically the music. I used to have such a deep hatred for rap music because it tears apart a woman down to her physical reproductive parts, and chalks a man up to values so demeaning. Couple that with violence, drug abuse, poverty, etc., and it’s no wonder a large percentage of black communities end up being stereotypes and statistics. But I digress, because there’s equal forces from all directions that bleed out far past just black communities that perpetuate on a much larger scale.

Amidst all of that, the rights, the planned parenthood, the media, the communities, the sex Ed, the past, the traditions, social interactions, media, etc., I think even beyond what people can observe, study, etc. Teaching the younger generations that it starts in their mindset and emotions would be one of the best ways to go about it. I say this a lot, and I’ll say it here: “Our outward actions, are merely symptoms of what goes on inside of us.” And I say that on an individual, case by case basis.

We can tell a young girl to watch out. To not do this, and not do that, to pick these kind of men, to carry herself like this and that. We can tell a young boy to carry himself like this, to pick a young woman who does x,y, and z, get this job, make this amount of money, etc. But what then?

For every parent/guardian who indulges, teaches, and listens to when a young person says things like, “I find this young person like myself very attractive. I get nervous to the point I can’t concentrate, I don’t have much confidence in myself, and I have no idea who I even am yet, and I wonder what she/he thinks of me. I have these sexual thoughts about this person that I have no idea about, but I feel them so strongly. I see tv shows and hear songs that suggest so many things, and my own developing perspective is filled to the brim with so many possibilities”. I congratulate them (parent/guardian/older generation). I think that’s the ticket right there. The ins and out don’t matter, but the case by case instances of us promoting a healthy outlook on life is what helps.

Sexual education , birth control, abstinence, etc., I find can be cared about more than the people they are supposed to be for.

Again, I know a lot of what I say can sound idealistic. Or just dreams I type out, but It’s these things that keep me up at night sometimes, and sure, I am quite hopeful regardless of what goes on today, but it’s these viewpoints I think matter, and for every young person who comes across such ideals, the one who catches on, grows up, and teaches others, keeps these things alive.

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Well, this is good.

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Another unintended consequence may equate to women doing the same thing

Getting tubes tied only has a 50% or so success rate when one tries to revert the procedure

I don’t consider men getting vasectomies to be a win for anyone. Especially if this leads to young men getting them and/or doctors approving the procedure for young men

The idea of women getting their tubes tied to make sure they can’t ever get pregnant also makes me sad.

Why? Should people who don’t want children not ensure they don’t have them. To have American culture be pro-natal again would take an enormous cultural shift that is not happening any time soon.

I think this is good.

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I forgot to ask “why?” in response to this also.

We refer to men and women in their twenties/thirties.

The capacity to make a decision that may permenantly impede your ability to reproduce provided you are fertile to begin with shouldn’t be taken lightly

Hence I sustain my beliefs, the thought of young men getting vasectomies/young women opting for tubal ligation is sad.

A decent swath of these individuals won’t be able to reproduce if they change their minds… how can you know you’ll never want kids at age 20?

I’m sure some are correct in their assumptions. There will be many who will change their minds at which point it may be too late.

If you truly don’t want kids, great
… this works

But at what age or degree of maturity mediated through life experience can you properly trust ones judgement?

Not as common for vasectomies, but doctors routinely turn down women who seek to get their tubes tied. Lot’s of stories about this if you look. Stories of a doctor requiring a husband approval type thing.

Requiring women to wait until 30 is also common.

If some (especially women) in this age group cannot figure it out by their 30’s they have some arrested development (that might need correcting for some cases) and will be approaching an age that isn’t ideal for this to begin with, although they should try if that’s where they find themselves.

Twenties/thirties. These are actually the ages in which people should know what they want. What do you suggest, 40’s (middle age!)?

People seem to be having kids later. In your 20s is now early it seems. Most are waiting until early 30s (at least from what I have seen from the people around me).

Why this is? IDK, probably a few different reasons.

I would think women seeking and establishing careers would be one cause for having kids later

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It is the foremost reason, I believe.

I don’t even think it’s that anymore. My wife had it done after our second child and they cut the entirety of both tubes out and burn the end. Pretty awful smell. I don’t know how they’d ever reverse that.